Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

Panrich wrote: »

I’d guess that the majority of these were ‘home’ for Christmas. Wasn’t there a requirement that you had to apply for residency in Spain prior to Brexit? It’s probably people who didn’t bother to update their documentation that got caught out here.

Well, the article does acknowledge a problem on the Spanish side with delivering the new permits on account of them being overwhelmed by the number of applications, and then Covid.

Looking very briefly at the rules here in France, it seems like people who applied too early for a residency permit, and go one, will have to apply all over again as the older ones became invalid on the 31st December. So I'm sure it's not just the messers and procrastinators that'll be caught up in this kind of thing.

I reckon there'll be a steady trickle of this kind of story for the next six months, or more.

blackcard

breezy1985 wrote: »

One big difference I noticed between living in Ireland and the UK is how many infrastructure and works projects are stamped with EU flags in Ireland where as you never hear about tangible benefits of membership

I know that Ireland were auditing infrastructure schemes to ensure that signs were erected to acknowledge that the funding came from the EU. Also that the EU logo was included on all correspondence in relation to the scheme

Detritus70

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, the article does acknowledge a problem on the Spanish side with delivering the new permits on account of them being overwhelmed by the number of applications, and then Covid.

The Spanish are never beyond a bit of malignant and spiteful bloody-mindedness in regards to the rules.

20silkcut

CelticRambler wrote: »

Indeed. I had a similar ill-humoured discussion with mobile phone company, Three.ie - their webtext service is (since an unpublished update to their T&Cs, apparently) available only to users in the RoI ... and the UK. But not to customers roaming in the EU.

For all that I agree with AutoTuning's analysis of the historical attitude to Europe of the Irish vs. the British, I think recent generations have quite willingly bought into the "West Brit" lifestyle, with their subscriptions to Sky, their delight in shopping in M&S, the excitement of having an Argos or a Halfords store open nearby, being able to jump on a Ryanair flight to see English soccer teams play in an English tournament.

In itself, there's nothing wrong with dipping into this parallel culture - but you just don't see anything comparable in respect of the continental equivalents.

The English premier league is quite universal in its appeal far beyond its own shores across Asia the Middle East , Africa South America etc. The French Italian or Dutch or even German football leagues just don’t have any where near the same appeal. Even if the standard is as good if not better. The razzmatazz around English football is unique in a global sense.

ArmaniJeanss

Detritus70 wrote: »

The Spanish are never beyond a bit of malignant and spiteful bloody-mindedness in regards to the rules.

Well, there's been a new set of rules suddenly foisted upon staff. And I doubt that Brexit has been front and centre of Spanish employee discourse for the last few months. So from reading the article, I'd suspect that a mistake was made here rather than anything malignant.

I think it's just something British people are going to have to get used to. They may do everything by the book and have everything in order such that they are entitled to be waived through with minimum checks - but then some lowly employee in an Aer Iberia uniform, a Vienna warehouse or on the Estonia/Latvia border who doesn't know the rules inside out is going to pause, double-check everything and often make unfortunate mistakes.

Specifically in the airline case, I'd guess that incorrectly stopping someone getting on the plane is a really minor issue which barely merits a tick. Whereas incorrectly letting someone on would be a major issue potentially leading to a disciplinary situation. So there'll be a natural inclination of employees to veer towards caution.

Enzokk

rock22 wrote: »

I can't link to it, but two days ago the Irish Times had an article on Irish Ferries where the CEO was promoting the landbridge route.
I imagine that logistics will take into account difficulty, time and price. For some goods landbridge might still be better option.

I find it interesting, though, contrasting this thread with the Consumer Issues section. No one over there seems to regard being in a large single market as a bonus. lots of threads about how they can continue to use Amazon.co.uk and other UK based retailers. It is a reflection of how the average Irish consumer sees themselves more an appendix of the UK market then part of the EU.
I tried to purchase on EBay .ie yesterday. in The filters I selected items in European Union yet the first two pages were full of UK sellers.

Does anyone know if Irish Ferries has an option to go via Rosslare directly to Europe? It could be that he is promoting the landbridge as that is where his interests lie, just like DFDS is promoting the new ferry services.

New ferry service linking Rosslare to Dunkirk sets sail

It will also be attractive to hauliers who need to travel on to Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands, as Dunkirk is close to the Belgian border.

"It's probably something that should have been done a long time ago but Brexit has pushed it forward," Darren Mooney of DFDS said today in Rosslare.

"They start their week in Dunkirk rather than starting in Holyhead or Pembroke, and the same coming back, so they save two days and get more productivity out of their trucks... It's getting there at the right speed as well. This is opening up the door for Ireland into Europe at a higher and faster pace."

I guess some will be happy with the new arrangements, others will find it a hassle. The fact there are 2 options is surely a good thing, a choice for companies on what would suit them the best.

yagan

Enzokk wrote: »

Does anyone know if Irish Ferries has an option to go via Rosslare directly to Europe? It could be that he is promoting the landbridge as that is where his interests lie, just like DFDS is promoting the new ferry services.

New ferry service linking Rosslare to Dunkirk sets sail



I guess some will be happy with the new arrangements, others will find it a hassle. The fact there are 2 options is surely a good thing, a choice for companies on what would suit them the best.

I'm surprised Irish Ferries talks up the landbridge after it commissioned the colosul W B Yeats for the continental route. They put it in on the Holyhead route during the winter months so maybe they're just trying to promote the current sailing schedule but with more competition putting on ships they'd want to careful not to be undercut.

L1011

Irish Ferries would need extra vessels to do a landbridge-avoider like the Dunkirk service. Based on what DFDS have scraped together for their service, there are not a lot of suitable vessels going around.

A new order would take maybe 4 years to arrive.

They recently enough cancelled an order for a new vessel from the incompetents who built the last one and were nearly a year late with it; said shipyard is going under anyway.

gormdubhgorm

It will dawn on the little Englanders eventually who read the Sun/Mirror/Daily Express that their Premier League will not be the same as result of Brexit.


The following article made me laugh - Football Manager Sam Allardyce had to pull out of three deals because he could not get a work permit for three players.

https://www.the42.ie/brexit-has-already-scuppered-some-of-sam-allardyces-transfer-plans-5315080-Jan2021/

He was not happy the manner in which the UK negotiated with the EU as it was.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1124315/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Theresa-May-European-Union-Sam-Allardyce-video

yagan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It will dawn on the little Englanders eventually who read the Sun/Mirror/Daily Express that their Premier League will not be the same as result of Brexit.


The following article made me laugh - Football Manager Sam Allardyce had to pull out of three deals because he could not get a work permit for three players.

https://www.the42.ie/brexit-has-already-scuppered-some-of-sam-allardyces-transfer-plans-5315080-Jan2021/

He was not happy the manner in which the UK negotiated with the EU as it was.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1124315/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Theresa-May-European-Union-Sam-Allardyce-video

There are so many knock ons from Brexit yet to materialise. For if a young star has a choice between an English, French or German club they're going to want to not have to worry about visa restrictions for their family etc..

It's like the UK elected to unpick the benefits of the Bosman ruling.

Edit to add, one upside is more opportunity for young English talent.

Maybe it's time for them to take more care to grow local talent as opposed to simply buying it in, premiership football is as un-English as you can get!

gormdubhgorm

yagan wrote: »

There are so many knock ons from Brexit yet to materialise. For if a young star has a choice between an English, French or German club they're going to want to not have to worry about visa restrictions for their family etc..

It's like the UK elected to unpick the benefits of the Bosman ruling.

Edit to add, one upside is more opportunity for young English talent.

Something like Technology/data protection is a more oscure one and less obvious that will be a minefield for example. The majority won't think of that type of thing though.

However, the PL league movement of players will be the most obvious to the masses. Gradually foreign players will move away from or not chose England. It will be like a reversal of the PL and the standard and amount of money will fall. Unless they make drastic changes to their rules on foreign footballers coming in it will be a mess.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe it's time for them to take more care to grow local talent as opposed to simply buying it in, premiership football is as un-English as you can get!

It raised the standard of football and increased the amount of money earned though. In a way the Premier League was a shining example of what the European Union could achieve as well as how the Champions League has taken off. Players scattered all around the EU free movement of workers etc.

Professor Moriarty

Main headline in The Express:

"We've got UK's crabs!" French fishermen boast of new haul BEFORE getting Brexit licence
French fishermen have been fishing in UK waters without a permit, just days after Britain finally secured control.

yagan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It raised the standard of football and increased the amount of money earned though. In a way the Premier League was a shining example of what the European Union could achieve as well as how the Champions League has taken off. Players scattered all around the EU free movement of workers etc.

The money will follow the path of least resistance, then the players and fans will follow. I won't be surprised if in the next decade the European Cup develops into a European Premiership, and English clubs will struggle to keep up.

Capt'n Midnight

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Something like Technology/data protection is a more oscure one and less obvious that will be a minefield for example.

Unless the Tories change their spots UK data protection laws will continue to diverge from EU ones. Previously the UK could get away with things like the snoopers charter because they were in the EU so the issue of EU citizens data could be fudged.

US online sites are already changing conditions to US terms for their UK users.

UK police have already lost a lot of access to EU data and institutions.

Some EU consumer protections are gone now too.

So far the mobile phone companies have voluntarily agreed not to gouge customers for now, so there's that.

CrabRevolution

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Their 2020 election manifesto was still firmly 'Eurosceptic'. They will use pro-EU sentiment if they think it advances their ends, but they are still anti-EU. For all their left wing posturing, they have a strong following among right wing and far right nuts and wont do anything to disuade them from voting for SF.

They really only opposed Brexit because the DUP supported it.

After the 2020 election when people were dreaming of a pan-left bag of cats coalition with PBP/Labour/SF/Greens/SocDems etc. one of the points I remember making was how the Greens and SF are nominally left wing but will be opposites on some things, such as farming and the environment.

I looked up SFs manifesto and in their "Rural" and "Farming" sections they effectively blame EU rules for any issues and make promises to either delay their implementation, or enforce them less effectively. They definitely share the brexiters belief that the EU just randomly imposes punishing rules on states for no reason.

AutoTuning

The U.K. mobile networks will face a bigger issue which is that EU networks won’t have to continue to offer them regulated termination rates and roaming rates. Vodafone has its own networks in most of Europe, but many of the smaller networks and MVNOs (virtual operators like Tesco, Virgin etc) could face being squeezed as they’ll have no U.K. roaming to trade in return for access to European networks, as they don’t have any of their infrastructure to offer access to. They just piggyback on Three, Vodafone, BT/EE or O2.

It goes from having a regulated market to just whatever they can individually negotiate. So you will go from universal free roaming to different companies with different arrangements in different countries. The same will apply to European networks roaming in the U.K. - it could unravel back to pre roaming directive days.

Valhallapt

CelticRambler wrote: »

Indeed. I had a similar ill-humoured discussion with mobile phone company, Three.ie - their webtext service is (since an unpublished update to their T&Cs, apparently) available only to users in the RoI ... and the UK. But not to customers roaming in the EU.

For all that I agree with AutoTuning's analysis of the historical attitude to Europe of the Irish vs. the British, I think recent generations have quite willingly bought into the "West Brit" lifestyle, with their subscriptions to Sky, their delight in shopping in M&S, the excitement of having an Argos or a Halfords store open nearby, being able to jump on a Ryanair flight to see English soccer teams play in an English tournament.

In itself, there's nothing wrong with dipping into this parallel culture - but you just don't see anything comparable in respect of the continental equivalents.

This is spot on

schmoo2k

Detritus70 wrote: »

The Spanish are never beyond a bit of malignant and spiteful bloody-mindedness in regards to the rules.

They are also promoting Spain as a place UK folks can retire to - I suspect a simple miscommunication / initial teething problem.

schmoo2k

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, there's been a new set of rules suddenly foisted upon staff. And I doubt that Brexit has been front and centre of Spanish employee discourse for the last few months. So from reading the article, I'd suspect that a mistake was made here rather than anything malignant.

I think it's just something British people are going to have to get used to. They may do everything by the book and have everything in order such that they are entitled to be waived through with minimum checks - but then some lowly employee in an Aer Iberia uniform, a Vienna warehouse or on the Estonia/Latvia border who doesn't know the rules inside out is going to pause, double-check everything and often make unfortunate mistakes.

Specifically in the airline case, I'd guess that incorrectly stopping someone getting on the plane is a really minor issue which barely merits a tick. Whereas incorrectly letting someone on would be a major issue potentially leading to a disciplinary situation. So there'll be a natural inclination of employees to veer towards caution.

The bit I found odd is that a lot of folks were going on what the UK site said, I would have thought the Spanish one should have been the goto one? (But to be fair did say the cards in question should have been fine).

AutoTuning

CelticRambler wrote: »

Indeed. I had a similar ill-humoured discussion with mobile phone company, Three.ie - their webtext service is (since an unpublished update to their T&Cs, apparently) available only to users in the RoI ... and the UK. But not to customers roaming in the EU.

For all that I agree with AutoTuning's analysis of the historical attitude to Europe of the Irish vs. the British, I think recent generations have quite willingly bought into the "West Brit" lifestyle, with their subscriptions to Sky, their delight in shopping in M&S, the excitement of having an Argos or a Halfords store open nearby, being able to jump on a Ryanair flight to see English soccer teams play in an English tournament.

In itself, there's nothing wrong with dipping into this parallel culture - but you just don't see anything comparable in respect of the continental equivalents.

You see it in Belgium with media and brands. Most Belgian households watch TV channels that are either French or Dutch as a huge % of their media consumption. Much like Sky of C4 etc here, there are versions of Canal+, TF1 etc owned channels that operate ad sales in Belgium. The same applies between Austria and Germany and to a degree Switzerland.

Scandinavian counties also all dip into cross border media.

Big retailers and brands also all straddle borders. That was the whole point of the single market. You’re as likely to shop in Carrefour or MediaMarkt in Belgium as you are Lidl in Killarney.

M&S being here is no different from Musgraves having a major presence in the U.K. or Primark (Pennys) or a British person jumping on a Ryanair flight to Malaga.

It would be more unusual for an EU country post 1993 to be heavily isolated from its nearest neighbour. The EU structures encouraged the development of a single market and seamless cross border trade. So I think it’s a bit of self flagellation to blame ourselves for plugging into our immediate neighbours supply chains, given that’s exactly what the European project was all about.

Had the EU and the single market not existed. Ireland would have looked more like pre 1993 retail landscape, albeit hopefully a bit wealthier assuming the economy had grown.

We have been actively encouraged to plug into markets and in almost all cases the most intense connections are with close neighbours with shared language etc

There are quite a lot of EU retailers here though. Lidl, Aldi, Zara, Villa, etc. Søstrene Grene, Tiger, JYSK, IKEA, Spar / Eurospar, Decathlon etc etc and a lot of the big retail brand for clothing are multinational or US originated in some cases. They’re not going anywhere. They’ll just reorganised logistics via Belgium or whatever.

You may see some retailers leave or sell to continental or Irish brands, but you may also just see some U.K. stores Irish branches diverge from their U.K. parent and just build their own supply chains. I don’t see the likes of Curry’s wanting to rush off. If you consider an Australian outfit, Harvey Norman operate here without any fuss and highly successfully as a mostly free floating branch. It doesn’t slavishly sell stuff to Australian specs or Australian brands or expect people to fit plug adapters or something.

Tesco Ireland is Tesco Ireland too. It is quite capable of operating as its own entity and more or less does anyway.

I think it’s important that we heavily highlight to the EU that we need to ensure some degree of flexibility on our adjustment to not having those systems because essentially the U.K. has pulled the plug on access. We haven’t done anything in to cause or deserve this. It’s circumstances beyond our control and we will have to face more direct disruption than any of our continental counterparts.

Flexibility may be needed on things like being able to subsidise ferry companies. We may also need some serious flexibility on cars if the U.K. diverges dramatically from EU technical standards as the RHD market for EU spec cars will have become tiny. Ireland switching to LHD probably isn’t a realistic option. We could drop every other U.K. spec we’ve used in other areas from plugs to building materials, but cars are very very challenging.

I think a lot of these issues will only be spotted or resolved as they present themselves.

(The following English Football teams thing though... that’s a bit special. I think perhaps it comes down to lack of a strong domestic league and our focus on multiple sports. We’re a bit unique in that regard and more like Australia or North America in our lack of focus on domestic soccer. That’s down to dominance of GAA and rugby.)

Fr Tod Umptious

yagan wrote: »

There are so many knock ons from Brexit yet to materialise. For if a young star has a choice between an English, French or German club they're going to want to not have to worry about visa restrictions for their family etc..

It's like the UK elected to unpick the benefits of the Bosman ruling.

Edit to add, one upside is more opportunity for young English talent.

Good opportunity for Irish players too seeing as (I don't believe) they are under the same restrictions as EU players.
Back in the 1989 English League title deciding game 5 ROI players started the game.

I could not tell you how many Irish players were even in Premier league winning squads in recent decades let alone starting big games.

The quality and performance of the English leagues will of course also be reduced.

I said on the soccer thread a while back that Brexit could be the shot in the arm the FA Cup needs.

foxyladyxx

Index of job losses attributed to Brexit

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/the-digby-jones-index/

yagan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]
Good opportunity for Irish players too seeing as (I don't believe) they are under the same restrictions as EU players.
Back in the 1989 English League title deciding game 5 ROI players started the game.

I could not tell you how many Irish players were even in Premier league winning squads in recent decades let alone starting big games.

The quality and performance of the English leagues will of course also be reduced.

I said on the soccer thread a while back that Brexit could be the shot in the arm the FA Cup needs.

If the English soccer business shrinks then Irish talent will follow the money to the continent. Irish talent will have the best of both worlds. As is there's plenty of Irish professional players who've never played in England.

However do we have as many young people opting for soccer compared to the 80s and 90s?

CelticRambler

AutoTuning wrote: »

You see it in Belgium with media and brands. Most Belgian households watch TV channels that are either French or Dutch as a huge % of their media consumption. Much like Sky of C4 etc here, there are versions of Canal+, TF1 etc owned channels that operate ad sales in Belgium. The same applies between Austria and Germany and to a degree Switzerland.

Scandinavian counties also all dip into cross border media.

Big retailers and brands also all straddle borders. That was the whole point of the single market. You’re as likely to shop in Carrefour or MediaMarkt in Belgium as you are Lidl in Killarney.

M&S being here is no different from Musgraves having a major presence in the U.K. or Primark (Pennys) or a British person jumping on a Ryanair flight to Malaga.

It would be more unusual for an EU country post 1993 to be heavily isolated from its nearest neighbour. The EU structures encouraged the development of a single market and seamless cross border trade. So I think it’s a bit of self flagellation to blame ourselves for plugging into our immediate neighbours supply chains, given that’s exactly what the European project was all about.

Well, this is where I think that Ireland and the Irish were a bit lazy, almost to the point of taking a backward step. As you pointed out previously, throughout our history, we have actively looked to continental Europe for supplies, inspiration, opportunities, etc. As a neo-exile looking back at my country from that same continent, it feels like Ireland has used the excuse of the language barrier to cherry-pick the easiest (not necessarily best) bits of the Single Market opportunities, resulting in a Britishisation of Ireland to the exclusion of other influences.

Just over fifteen years ago, I had had enough of life in the UK and considered moving back to Ireland - but (again, as a neo-exile) it didn't take long to see that Irish life was rapidly adopting many of the worst aspects of the British lifestyle I wanted to give up. The financial crash helped correct that to a certain extent,though not entirely, and I hope that Brexit will similarly encourage/force Ireland to shift it's field of vision back towards the continent, where - for so many centuries - there was a very healthy give-and-take relationship. Fifteen years ago, I voted with my feet, exercised my rights as an EU citizen and opted for the continental lifestyle myself, a decision I've never regretted.

Charles Babbage

Sam Russell wrote: »

IDS was 21 in 1975.

I doubt he was part of any British buccaneering, trading or dominating the world when he was 21.

.

He was an army officer occupying the northern part of this country, was he not?

Irish Praetorian

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, this is where I think that Ireland and the Irish were a bit lazy, almost to the point of taking a backward step. As you pointed out previously, throughout our history, we have actively looked to continental Europe for supplies, inspiration, opportunities, etc. As a neo-exile looking back at my country from that same continent, it feels like Ireland has used the excuse of the language barrier to cherry-pick the easiest (not necessarily best) bits of the Single Market opportunities, resulting in a Britishisation of Ireland to the exclusion of other influences.

Just over fifteen years ago, I had had enough of life in the UK and considered moving back to Ireland - but (again, as a neo-exile) it didn't take long to see that Irish life was rapidly adopting many of the worst aspects of the British lifestyle I wanted to give up. The financial crash helped correct that to a certain extent,though not entirely, and I hope that Brexit will similarly encourage/force Ireland to shift it's field of vision back towards the continent, where - for so many centuries - there was a very healthy give-and-take relationship. Fifteen years ago, I voted with my feet, exercised my rights as an EU citizen and opted for the continental lifestyle myself, a decision I've never regretted.

Out of interest, what would you identify as the chief distinctions between the British versus Continental lifestyles? I mean we might jump yo language as the most obvious one but Im presuming there is something deeper you are getting at?

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

He was an army officer occupying the northern part of this country, was he not?

According to Wiki, he did a stint up there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_Duncan_Smith#Early_life,_military_service_and_professional_career

Duncan Smith was educated at Bishop Glancey Secondary Modern, Solihull, until the age of 14, and then at HMS Conway, a Merchant Navy training school on the Isle of Anglesey, until he was 18.[6][7] There, he played rugby union in the position of fly-half alongside Clive Woodward at centre.[7] In 1973, he spent a year studying at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, Italy.[n 1][8] He then attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was commissioned into the Scots Guards as a second lieutenant on 28 June 1975, with the Personal Number 500263.[7][9] He was promoted to lieutenant in the Scots Guards on 28 June 1977.[10] During his service, he served in Northern Ireland and Southern Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe),[11] where he was aide-de-camp to Major-General Sir John Acland, commander of the Commonwealth Monitoring Force monitoring the ceasefire during elections.[12] He retired from the army on 2 April 1981, moving to the Regular Army Reserve of Officers.[13] He ceased to belong to the Reserve of Officers on 29 June 1983.[14]

yagan

I think all this talk of being plugged into our neighbours world is a bit overdone. If anything per head of population there's more Brits plugged into our world whereas the average age of the Irish citizen resident in England is now 60 and rising rapidly.

Young Irish who do go to Britain now are usually just focusing on the international scene of London which may offer less overall opportunities now, despite the Irish passport bonus.

Without automatic recognition of UK qualifications in the EU it will steer students towards continental options which will be better funded too.