Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

yagan

yagan wrote: »

I think all this talk of being plugged into our neighbours world is a bit overdone. If anything per head of population there's more Brits plugged into our world whereas the average age of the Irish citizen resident in England is now 60 and rising rapidly.

Young Irish who do go to Britain now are usually just focusing on the international scene of London which may offer less overall opportunities now, despite the Irish passport bonus.

Without automatic recognition of UK qualifications in the EU it will steer students towards continental options which will be better funded too.

It's also worth remembering that many of those who "escaped" to the UK in the 1980s did return during the celtic tiger boom, whereas most of those who went over in previous waves stayed.

yagan

Deleted User wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that many of those who "escaped" to the UK in the 1980s did return during the celtic tiger boom, whereas most of those who went over in previous waves stayed.

True, the last outflow went to Oz and Canada and even a lot of them have returned.

Plus with many more EU citizens living in Ireland it's very likely that their kids won't think anything of studying on the continent, and kids of Irish parents will follow them too.

This isn't a case asking whether we're more influenced by Britain or the continent. It's the Brits who make it a contest.

Fr Tod Umptious

yagan wrote: »

If the English soccer business shrinks then Irish talent will follow the money to the continent. Irish talent will have the best of both worlds. As is there's plenty of Irish professional players who've never played in England.

However do we have as many young people opting for soccer compared to the 80s and 90s?

But the Irish players are not good enough for Europe.
They prospered pre 1990s in England because the English leagues were poor compared to Europe.

They'll prosper again because the quality European players will not be as accessible to the British clubs like they have been since the 1990s.

yagan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But the Irish players are not good enough for Europe.

I can't get my head around your post.

On one hand you're saying Irish talent isn't good enough for the continent, yet there's Irish players making a living there without ever playing in England.

And then you say English soccer wasn't good enough for Europe yet you think that would be better for Irish talent than the continent.

The reality is irish talent have the best of both of worlds as they'll never have to worry about visas.

There's scale differences.
A newly founded ESB looking to Siemens is diffent to me sitting on my couch browsing whatever on Amazon.co.uk.

I'm used to brands, channels, plugs, keyboards etc.
I'm not going to immediately know where to look elsewhere or indeed what to consider.

I assembled an IKEA lamp recently and hadn't considered that the bulb will be screw in.

Where is the stat about the average age of Irish in Britain from? Curious to read it.

Capt'n Midnight

Edinburgh zoo may have to send giant pandas back to China because no more EU Life programme funding.

BorneTobyWilde

Rosslare to Dunkirk ferry will lose UK Billions one would imagine. Hardly anyone will use land bridge, the amount of fuel truckers buy in UK, and food, and tyres, and breakdowns ect.
Now it's Rosslare to Dunkirk,

jimmycrackcorm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Nigel will be getting a €6,253 a month from the EU in 7 years time.

to be fair - it's actually the UK who are paying for that courtesy of the withdrawal agreement. Money well spent to not have Farage in Brussels.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Edinburgh zoo may have to send giant pandas back to China because no more EU Life programme funding.

More to do with COVID related drop in revenue than anything else, the guardian just putting an anti brexit spin on it.

yagan

Deleted User wrote: »

Where is the stat about the average age of Irish in Britain from? Curious to read it.

I read it in a piece from a couple of years ago but a quick google gave me this

In the most recent census in 2011, 430,309 people living in Britain identified themselves as Irish-born, down 37 per cent from a peak of 683,000 in 1961. The Annual Population Survey carried out by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) in 2018 put the Irish-born population for the UK at just 380,000.

With an estimated 42 per cent of Irish-born people living in the UK now over the age of 65, the numbers are only going in one direction.

I visited an Irish centre in Manchester a few years to watch a hurling match and chatting with Irish who'd arrived in the 60s they thought the average age in their remaining community was definitely over 60, they said people stopped coming in the early 90s.

tubercolossus

CelticRambler wrote: »

I think recent generations have quite willingly bought into the "West Brit" lifestyle, with their subscriptions to Sky, their delight in shopping in M&S, the excitement of having an Argos or a Halfords store open nearby, being able to jump on a Ryanair flight to see English soccer teams play in an English tournament.

Point of order. Supporting Man U or Liverpool and shopping in BHS doesn't make anyone a "west Brit".

tubercolossus

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe it's time for them to take more care to grow local talent as opposed to simply buying it in, premiership football is as un-English as you can get!

It's a global league. That is a direct result of its success.

CelticRambler

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you identify as the chief distinctions between the British versus Continental lifestyles? I mean we might jump yo language as the most obvious one but Im presuming there is something deeper you are getting at?

What really struck me was 2000's Ireland opting to follow the UK's lead in just about everything relating to housing - the idiotic sales process with competing bids and gazumping, the ridiculous concept of a "property ladder", treating homes as "an investment"; and related to that, every square metre of public, communal and commercial space being given a monetary value and every last cent being squeezed out of it. It was also rather depressing to see so many commercial spaces (especially shopping centres) becoming clones of the same in England.

This might be more of a Americanisation than a Britishisation, but on a social/personal/human level, it felt like people had drifted into the mentality of "looking after No.1" as a priority, with a concurrent mistrust of strangers. On top of this, a feeling that everyone was busy-busy-busy all the time - everything scheduled to within thirty minutes of the available hours in the day.

There were plenty of purely "Irish" reasons why I didn't feel Ireland was the right place for me either - especially the attitude to drink (both the excessive consumption and the nonsensical control measures) - but even with the economic "correction" I still feel that there's a lot less difference between today's Ireland and Britain than there was when I left the one to go to the other; and no real new rapprochement between Ireland and any of the EU26.

tubercolossus

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Rosslare to Dunkirk ferry will lose UK Billions one would imagine. Hardly anyone will use land bridge, the amount of fuel truckers buy in UK, and food, and tyres, and breakdowns ect.
Now it's Rosslare to Dunkirk,

I assume you mean Holyhead there. 80% of landbridge traffic is Irl-UK only, though. So it should still be viable, unless other factors intrude.

CelticRambler

tubercolossus wrote: »

I assume you mean Holyhead there. 80% of landbridge traffic is Irl-UK only, though.

By definition, if it's Irl-UK only, it's not landbridge traffic!

CelticRambler

tubercolossus wrote: »

Point of order. Supporting Man U or Liverpool and shopping in BHS doesn't make anyone a "west Brit".

I didn't say that anyone was a "west Brit" because of their personal interests; an an outsider, I say that Ireland as a whole (particularly Leinster) appears to have adopted a range of British lifestyle choices that makes it hard to tell whether you're on the east or the west of the Irish Sea.

Capt'n Midnight

tubercolossus wrote: »

Point of order. Supporting Man U or Liverpool and shopping in BHS doesn't make anyone a "west Brit".

shopping in BHS ?

Brexit hasn't helped the high street.

ancapailldorcha

CelticRambler wrote: »

What really struck me was 2000's Ireland opting to follow the UK's lead in just about everything relating to housing - the idiotic sales process with competing bids and gazumping, the ridiculous concept of a "property ladder", treating homes as "an investment"; and related to that, every square metre of public, communal and commercial space being given a monetary value and every last cent being squeezed out of it. It was also rather depressing to see so many commercial spaces (especially shopping centres) becoming clones of the same in England.

This might be more of a Americanisation than a Britishisation, but on a social/personal/human level, it felt like people had drifted into the mentality of "looking after No.1" as a priority, with a concurrent mistrust of strangers. On top of this, a feeling that everyone was busy-busy-busy all the time - everything scheduled to within thirty minutes of the available hours in the day.

There were plenty of purely "Irish" reasons why I didn't feel Ireland was the right place for me either - especially the attitude to drink (both the excessive consumption and the nonsensical control measures) - but even with the economic "correction" I still feel that there's a lot less difference between today's Ireland and Britain than there was when I left the one to go to the other; and no real new rapprochement between Ireland and any of the EU26.

I lived in Manchester for about 18 months and in hindsight it was like living in a different country. Seriously deprived in parts but so much more down to earth in terms of cost of living, culture and life in general to be honest. Work was just a way to provide for oneself whereas down here in London it's all about personal development and jumping for the next bauble for your CV. Northerners are quite a chill and sound lot I found.

It's nice to hear that this sort of thing isn't replicated on the continent so much.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

More to do with COVID related drop in revenue than anything else, the guardian just putting an anti brexit spin on it.

They are down £2m because of Covid.

The EU grant was significantly larger at £3.2m

breezy1985

CelticRambler wrote: »

I didn't say that anyone was a "west Brit" because of their personal interests; an an outsider, I say that Ireland as a whole (particularly Leinster) appears to have adopted a range of British lifestyle choices that makes it hard to tell whether you're on the east or the west of the Irish Sea.

That's not what " West Brit" means to Irish people.
And we have not started to adopt British lifestyle choices we have had them for 100s of years so it's not a modern generational thing

tubercolossus

CelticRambler wrote: »

By definition, if it's Irl-UK only, it's not landbridge traffic!

Technically true, but I meant traffic wanting to use the Rosslare-Holyhead ferry.

tubercolossus

CelticRambler wrote: »

I didn't say that anyone was a "west Brit" because of their personal interests; an an outsider, I say that Ireland as a whole (particularly Leinster) appears to have adopted a range of British lifestyle choices that makes it hard to tell whether you're on the east or the west of the Irish Sea.

If you didn't mean to imply that anyone was a west Brit, then why use the term?
It's a bit loaded, much like "Ireland as a whole (particularly Leinster) appears to have adopted a range of British lifestyle choices", wouldn't you say?

I'd say you are well qualified to comment on Irish people's attitudes to Europe, but, maybe less so on domestic issues?

FrancieBrady

tubercolossus wrote: »

Technically true, but I meant traffic wanting to use the Rosslare-Holyhead ferry.

How much of that traffic is dropping goods on the other side for onward journeys to the EU though? I know one haulage firm that have trucks permanently in England for this purpose.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Take the soccer stuff to the relevant forum please. Thanks.

tubercolossus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How much of that traffic is dropping goods on the other side for onward journeys to the EU though? I know one haulage firm that have trucks permanently in England for this purpose.

The Irish Ferries guy in the Irish Times promoting the landbridge route said 80% of the traffic was Irl-UK only. Dunno if onward EU traffic was mentioned.

FrancieBrady

tubercolossus wrote: »

The Irish Ferries guy in the Irish Times promoting the landbridge route said 80% of the traffic was Irl-UK only. Dunno if onward EU traffic was mentioned.

But it would be in a shipping sense. 'Shunters' I think they are called...works the other way too with trucks waiting for containers coming in from EU and UK.
Would be interesting to see the figures.

CelticRambler

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's not what " West Brit" means to Irish people.
And we have not started to adopt British lifestyle choices we have had them for 100s of years so it's not a modern generational thing

Well, as I've been around for half of the last hundred of those, I'm saying that I saw Ireland of the 80s and 90s becoming more and more European; and then with the arrival of the Celtic Tiger, that seemed to stop, and the country as a whole seemed to make a sharp and deliberate turn towards the Anglo-American way of life, with (as I said) a huge amount of easily accessible British culture becoming the norm in Ireland, at the expense of continental influence.

I acknowledge that my use of the term "West Brit" was somewhat provocative, but (yet again) looking from 1000 miles away at the country where I was born and raised, I'm finding it damn near impossible to tell the difference between the "traditional" West Brit and your average modern-day Irishman or woman.

As this decade unfolds, I will find it interesting to see how that might evolve; but my impression is that, despite the overwhelming support in Ireland for the EU as a concept, Mr. Average-Modern-Day-Ireland is too addicted to British TV and British snacks and British fashion and British music and British brands and all the rest, to let Brexit change the relationship too much. Which is a shame, because there's so much continental culture that could be usefully incorporated into Irish life.

tubercolossus

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, as I've been around for half of the last hundred of those, I'm saying that I saw Ireland of the 80s and 90s becoming more and more European; and then with the arrival of the Celtic Tiger, that seemed to stop, and the country as a whole seemed to make a sharp and deliberate turn towards the Anglo-American way of life, with (as I said) a huge amount of easily accessible British culture becoming the norm in Ireland, at the expense of continental influence.

I acknowledge that my use of the term "West Brit" was somewhat provocative, but (yet again) looking from 1000 miles away at the country where I was born and raised, I'm finding it damn near impossible to tell the difference between the "traditional" West Brit and your average modern-day Irishman or woman.

As this decade unfolds, I will find it interesting to see how that might evolve; but my impression is that, despite the overwhelming support in Ireland for the EU as a concept, Mr. Average-Modern-Day-Ireland is too addicted to British TV and British snacks and British fashion and British music and British brands and all the rest, to let Brexit change the relationship too much. Which is a shame, because there's so much continental culture that could be usefully incorporated into Irish life.

This just seems like nonsense to me, I'm afraid. And the two things that leap out at me are "80s and 90s" and "1000 miles away".

You sound like every ex-pat ever who doesn't like what's happening in his/her country from a distance. And we're well off-topic.

The Raging Bile Duct

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, as I've been around for half of the last hundred of those, I'm saying that I saw Ireland of the 80s and 90s becoming more and more European; and then with the arrival of the Celtic Tiger, that seemed to stop, and the country as a whole seemed to make a sharp and deliberate turn towards the Anglo-American way of life, with (as I said) a huge amount of easily accessible British culture becoming the norm in Ireland, at the expense of continental influence.

I acknowledge that my use of the term "West Brit" was somewhat provocative, but (yet again) looking from 1000 miles away at the country where I was born and raised, I'm finding it damn near impossible to tell the difference between the "traditional" West Brit and your average modern-day Irishman or woman.

As this decade unfolds, I will find it interesting to see how that might evolve; but my impression is that, despite the overwhelming support in Ireland for the EU as a concept, Mr. Average-Modern-Day-Ireland is too addicted to British TV and British snacks and British fashion and British music and British brands and all the rest, to let Brexit change the relationship too much. Which is a shame, because there's so much continental culture that could be usefully incorporated into Irish life.

I'm really scratching my head with this assessment of Ireland. It doesn't tally with what I see around me. I really don't think you understand what the term 'West Brit' means at all.

yagan

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, as I've been around for half of the last hundred of those, I'm saying that I saw Ireland of the 80s and 90s becoming more and more European; and then with the arrival of the Celtic Tiger, that seemed to stop, and the country as a whole seemed to make a sharp and deliberate turn towards the Anglo-American way of life, with (as I said) a huge amount of easily accessible British culture becoming the norm in Ireland, at the expense of continental influence.

I acknowledge that my use of the term "West Brit" was somewhat provocative, but (yet again) looking from 1000 miles away at the country where I was born and raised, I'm finding it damn near impossible to tell the difference between the "traditional" West Brit and your average modern-day Irishman or woman.

As this decade unfolds, I will find it interesting to see how that might evolve; but my impression is that, despite the overwhelming support in Ireland for the EU as a concept, Mr. Average-Modern-Day-Ireland is too addicted to British TV and British snacks and British fashion and British music and British brands and all the rest, to let Brexit change the relationship too much. Which is a shame, because there's so much continental culture that could be usefully incorporated into Irish life.

But if the anglosphere channels are what you use then that's all you'll see.

People drive Landrovers on the continent too, the newer models being made in Slovakia and Brits love their Audi's and BMW but who calls them North West Germans?

Superficials do not equate affinity. Having recently spent a few years in England (outside London bubble) I found myself understanding how different we are. We've an open outward looking society whereas what I heard and encountered first hand there was an insularity and defensiveness around all things foreign.

Cooking classes in north Spain are as likely to become the next Irish fad as getting married in Italy was during the Bertie bubble.