Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

Strazdas wrote: »

They seem surprisingly protectionist, as if they never actually bought into the 'Global Britain' palaver - gleefully talking about how it would be a good thing if British consumers bought only GB goods and nothing from outside the country.

But this type of protectionist mind set would definitely tie in with an ultra nationalist view of the world.

Good thing they love the cars built in the UK.

81% of all vehicles made in Britain are exported

Imreoir2

Strazdas wrote: »

They seem surprisingly protectionist, as if they never actually bought into the 'Global Britain' palaver - gleefully talking about how it would be a good thing if British consumers bought only GB goods and nothing from outside the country.

But this type of protectionist mind set would definitely tie in with an ultra nationalist view of the world.

The UK seems to have a similar trend to the US where working class and rural voters have shifted significantly to the right in a reaction againt the perceived evils of globalisation, while in reality the true causes of their ills are much closer to home and are manipulating their xenophobia and patriotism to distract from harmful economic policies.

tubercolossus

SNIP. Don't dump links here please.

54and56

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's not quite that simple. You have two different categories of "ex-pats" in these areas - the long-term residents, who are quite happy to live there most of the year as long as the British taxpayer continues to fund their lifestyle. These folk usually need to make an occasional trip back to tick some boxes or show their face at some appointment, but otherwise they've effectively permanently emigrated. These people will jump through whatever hoops they have to in order to stay in Spain, especially as - for many of them - going back to GB would be a financial impossibility, especially as they've already taken a hit on account of the relative devaluation of sterling over the last two decades.

The problem with this group is that the UK state pension, which most of them rely on as their sole income, does not meet the minimum income requirement for non EU residency so whilst I agree with your assertion that this group are effectively emigrated to Spain and will reluctantly jump through whatever hoops they have to in order to stay many of them simply won't qualify to stay and once they have stayed beyond the 90 days in any 180 permitted for visitors they'll not be able to get back in next time they leave.

peter kern

54and56 wrote: »

The problem with this group is that the UK state pension, which most of them rely on as their sole income, does not meet the minimum income requirement for non EU residency so whilst I agree with your assertion that this group are effectively emigrated to Spain and will reluctantly jump through whatever hoops they have to in order to stay many of them simply won't qualify to stay and once they have stayed beyond the 90 days in any 180 permitted for visitors they'll not be able to get back in next time they leave.

to reverse the often asked question here on brexit. what is the advantage for spain if retired uk people have to leave ? especially during the covid crisis?

54and56

peter kern wrote: »

to reverse the often asked question here on brexit. what is the advantage for spain if retired uk people have to leave ? especially during the covid crisis?

I'm not sure there are any significant advantages for the Spanish economy if casual / unofficial retired UK residents are forced to leave because they can't meet the requirements to stay and qualify for residency.

I guess it might save the Spanish healthcare system some money as this group typically don't have private health insurance and had generally relied on either the EHIC card for free healthcare in Spain (which I think may be re-imbursed by the UK anyway) or travelled back to the UK for healthcare not covered by the EHIC card.

I'd say Spain would be happy to let them stay if they could unilaterally amend the Schengen rules but I'm not sure they can. Happy to be corrected on that.

prawnsambo

54and56 wrote: »

I'm not sure there are any significant advantages for the Spanish economy if casual / unofficial retired UK residents are forced to leave because they can't meet the requirements to stay and qualify for residency.

I guess it might save the Spanish healthcare system some money as this group typically don't have private health insurance and had generally relied on either the EHIC card for free healthcare in Spain (which I think may be re-imbursed by the UK anyway) or travelled back to the UK for healthcare not covered by the EHIC card.

I'd say Spain would be happy to let them stay if they could unilaterally amend the Schengen rules but I'm not sure they can. Happy to be corrected on that.

Also may temporarily reduce property prices if there's a sudden glut of 1 and 2 bed apartments on the market. But that's unlikely to last and may bring in bigger spenders from Germany, Netherlands etc. A loss of a bunch of people on low incomes is unlikely to have any long-lasting economic effects.

dogbert27

peter kern wrote: »

to reverse the often asked question here on brexit. what is the advantage for spain if retired uk people have to leave ? especially during the covid crisis?

There could be no advantage but Spain had no say. The people of the UK had spoken and the UK government were determined to execute the will of the UK people and take them out of the EU and the EU rules and it didn't matter to them if it left EU countries at a disadvantage because they were going to make Britain GREAT again.

The realities to Brexit are only just beginning for people like ex-pats, for people having difficulties returning to EU countries for work, etc.

If Spain are at a disadvantage because under the rules the UK people have to leave as they are now citizens of a 3rd country it's not Spain's fault.

CelticRambler

54and56 wrote: »

The problem with this group is that the UK state pension, which most of them rely on as their sole income, does not meet the minimum income requirement for non EU residency so whilst I agree with your assertion that this group are effectively emigrated to Spain and will reluctantly jump through whatever hoops they have to in order to stay many of them simply won't qualify to stay and once they have stayed beyond the 90 days in any 180 permitted for visitors they'll not be able to get back in next time they leave.

Well yes, those who have been gaming the system and trying to stretch their UK pension by being simultaneously "resident" in the UK and in Spain (surely the worst kind of benefit-scrounging immigrant? :P ) will have to face the music. But for anyone who has made even a half-hearted effort to formally retire to Spain, I would be very surprised if that country doesn't apply similar rules to those now applying in France. This would be in line with the provisions of the Withdrawal Agreement.

I don't suppose it's clear from that discussion group how many of the people talking about their Schrödinger lifestyle being up-ended voted for Brexit,is it?

peter kern

54and56 wrote: »

I'm not sure there are any significant advantages for the Spanish economy if casual / unofficial retired UK residents are forced to leave because they can't meet the requirements to stay and qualify for residency.

I guess it might save the Spanish healthcare system some money as this group typically don't have private health insurance and had generally relied on either the EHIC card for free healthcare in Spain (which I think may be re-imbursed by the UK anyway) or travelled back to the UK for healthcare not covered by the EHIC card.

I'd say Spain would be happy to let them stay if they could unilaterally amend the Schengen rules but I'm not sure they can. Happy to be corrected on that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/02/brexit-new-rules-europe-holidays-health-mobile-phones
according to this they can change the rules . i believe portugal takes a much more proactive stance to have them stay

dogbert27

peter kern wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/02/brexit-new-rules-europe-holidays-health-mobile-phones
according to this they can change the rules . i believe portugal takes a much more proactive stance to have them stay

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

yagan

Retiring/moving to Spain is still going to be a far more difficult route than in the past. For many all they wanted was Britain in the sun, and without the emigration paperwork and bureaucracy it really was as easy as packing the car, bundling in the pets and plants and catching the ferry. All that's gone now and I reckon we'll see a constant decline in the British community there.

They're analogous to what happens Britain after Brexit, more insular and declining. I'm still can't get my head around that they expected sellers to the UK to collect UK dues on their behalf. Is the UK going to pursue every international vender who pockets that fee?

CelticRambler

dogbert27 wrote: »

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

No paywall on Guardian articles, and definitely not on that one.

I think the point peter kern was referring to is that there's an EU-wide "floor" of minimum protections for UK citizens already resident in an EU member state. From now on, it's up to each individual state to decide whether or not to grant additional rights to this group of people, and on what terms.

peter kern

dogbert27 wrote: »

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

However, each EU country has the right to set its own entry terms. It is possible that, for example, the Spanish or Portuguese governments, which are keen on maintaining UK tourist levels, could decide to offer an easy, non-work visa in the future, but this is by no means a given.

can i remind you that brits can still work and live in ireland.
the gibraltar agreement
i forgot the golden visa.

lennymc

dogbert27 wrote: »

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

from the article:

However, each EU country has the right to set its own entry terms. It is possible that, for example, the Spanish or Portuguese governments, which are keen on maintaining UK tourist levels, could decide to offer an easy, non-work visa in the future, but this is by no means a given.

has it not always been the case that eu countries can set visa requirements for third countries?

Nody

lennymc wrote: »

has it not always been the case that eu countries can set visa requirements for third countries?

Of course not; that would imply that the consecutive UK governments could have dealt with non EU immigration rather than blame EU for them not doing so.

ArmaniJeanss

peter kern wrote: »

However, each EU country has the right to set its own entry terms. It is possible that, for example, the Spanish or Portuguese governments, which are keen on maintaining UK tourist levels, could decide to offer an easy, non-work visa in the future, but this is by no means a given.

can i remind you that brits can still work and live in ireland.
the gibraltar agreement

Didn't you just ask about UK retiree's in Spain though in your earlier post, not tourists?
I think it's important to separate the two. Making it easy for tourists is a slam dunk. By and large they spend money, lots of it as they are on their holidays.
The case for making it easy for retirees or even younger working people to live there permanently is less clearcut.

54and56

dogbert27 wrote: »

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

No paywall on The Guardian AFAIK!!

The pertinent piece in the article is:

"However, each EU country has the right to set its own entry terms. It is possible that, for example, the Spanish or Portuguese governments, which are keen on maintaining UK tourist levels, could decide to offer an easy, non-work visa in the future, but this is by no means a given.

Expect more details to emerge from EU countries during the coming months – but don’t bank on it."

Dymo

peter kern wrote: »

to reverse the often asked question here on brexit. what is the advantage for spain if retired uk people have to leave ? especially during the covid crisis?

I think it's better for Spain if they stay but here are a couple of reasons

Most people that retire to Spain are between 65-80, a lot of them need medical resources on a regular basis that puts the Spanish system under pressure, with the EHIC card that was fine as the UK government paid them back but now that has gone and private health insurance is either a foreign concept or they can't afford it as many just live off their pensions. This could become more of a burden for the Spanish economy.

If UK people sell up and leave the Spanish government they will be able to claim more taxes in property sales as they are now not governed by EU citizens legislation.

Snickers Man

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Good thing they love the cars built in the UK.

81% of all vehicles made in Britain are exported

Interesting stats on that site. Like the one which says that 1.6 million car engines were made for export in Britain in 2019. I wonder how many of those were made in the Ford factory in Bridgend which closed in September 2020?

According to that Wales online report 22 million engines were made at that factory since it opened up in 1980. Now it's probably unfair to deduce that an equal amount was made every year but 22 million over 40 years averages out at 550,000 per year.

That would mean the Bridgend closure would reduce the total output of UK-made car engines by a third!!! Though in fairness, it's probably less than that.

Sam Russell

Snickers Man wrote: »

Interesting stats on that site. Like the one which says that 1.6 million car engines were made for export in Britain in 2019. I wonder how many of those were made in the Ford factory in Bridgend which closed in September 2020?

According to that Wales online report 22 million engines were made at that factory since it opened up in 1980. Now it's probably unfair to deduce that an equal amount was made every year but 22 million over 40 years averages out at 550,000 per year.

That would mean the Bridgend closure would reduce the total output of UK-made car engines by a third!!! Though in fairness, it's probably less than that.

Who else makes engines for export in the UK? [In the sort of numbers that Ford do.]

Hurrache

tubercolossus wrote: »

BBC story about EU companies deciding not to sell to the UK because of Brexit red-tape.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

There's been a backlash against the BBC for how they frame stories like this. The guy from Dutch Bike Bits had to eventually shut his online feedback and enquiry form as he said it was being spammed by idiot Brexiters who were also leaving poor reviews on Google, for example this clown

So you are happy to ship anywhere in the world but now not the UK because of Brexit??? I am totally gobsmacked that your company (I read you were originally British) got onto the front page of the BBC, (Nothing surprises me anymore) people must be quaking in their boots at the loss of their imports from your company. Just to confirm, can you clarify that this is your business in the picture below? How far back does it stretch as it looks like my first house I purchased. Your loss Dutch Bike Bits, there are plenty of other places where we can order from. Oh and can you change the language on your website from English to something else as you no longer want to be associated with the UK.

There's also a bunch of Brits in Europe now complaining that their Sky Go and Amazon Prime is no longer working. It's the little things they don't realise are because they chose to leave.

Sam Russell

The BBC should have pointed out the reason so many companies on-line are refusing to ship to the UK is because the UK Gov are insisting that the on-line retailors have to register (and pay for registration) to collect UK VAT and duty and pay it to the UK for every sale, no matter how small. That is totally unacceptable to small or occasional traders.

I would expect the UK C&E will be forced to change this.

But the BBC are independent of the UK Gov, so we should expect that they are not acting as a mouthpiece for the Gov in this matter.

tubercolossus

dogbert27 wrote: »

The link is behind a pay wall.

Where and what exactly does it say that countries can change the rules on their own after 4 years of EU-Brexit negotiations being finally agreed?

Guardian's not paywalled.

foxyladyxx

The Company which supplied my Medical supplies say they can now no longer ship to Ireland. I have to look elsewhere for my essential products. Hollister are manufactured here in ireland so hopefully they can fill the gap. They are posting samples to me

This is also the case with pharmaceutical and cosmetic manufacturers and suppliers.

Clothing companies will be harder to replace but hopefully Portuguese and Spanish companies can fill the gap left by Marks and Spencer, Karen Millen and Fatface.

peter kern

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Didn't you just ask about UK retiree's in Spain though in your earlier post, not tourists?
I think it's important to separate the two. Making it easy for tourists is a slam dunk. By and large they spend money, lots of it as they are on their holidays.
The case for making it easy for retirees or even younger working people to live there permanently is less clearcut.

yes i did ask what is the benefit for spain when retired uk people have to leave or cant come.
and i think not many have been mentioned.

or in a simple a sentence keep the cake a eu countryeats ( or even parts of a country such as the communidad de valencia eats)

i think in portugal there is fast lanes for brtish people in faro airport but not in lisboa * iam not sure if this is the case but they were talking about it. and i guess this is a good way dealing with it.

i recognize there has to be limits on free movement as it is one of the eu s pillars, but overall i think most people see the negative impact of leaving the eu already, so we can be much more strategic how we do to minimise the loss and maximise the profit. from brexit
and i guess the current trade deal but not financial deal is a good example already.

dogbert27

54and56 wrote: »

No paywall on The Guardian AFAIK!!

The pertinent piece in the article is:

"However, each EU country has the right to set its own entry terms. It is possible that, for example, the Spanish or Portuguese governments, which are keen on maintaining UK tourist levels, could decide to offer an easy, non-work visa in the future, but this is by no means a given.

Expect more details to emerge from EU countries during the coming months – but don’t bank on it."

Thanks and apologies, it wasn't a pay wall I just didn't read through that it was "register for for and continue reading".

The point you make though is what I was getting at. It doesn't say anything to amending rules for people to reside or work there but be flexible for tourists.

trellheim

The BBC should have pointed out the reason so many companies on-line are refusing to ship to the UK is because the UK Gov are insisting that the on-line retailors have to register (and pay for registration) to collect UK VAT and duty and pay it to the UK for every sale, no matter how small. That is totally unacceptable to small or occasional traders.

I would expect the UK C&E will be forced to change this.

But the BBC are independent of the UK Gov, so we should expect that they are not acting as a mouthpiece for the Gov in this matter.

well it was either that or the couriers do it, someone's gotta charge the money .... this is what they voted for surely or did I miss that bit ?



On another note IIRC the UK picks up the healthcare tab for uk pensioners resident in Spain - no ehic needed ( and did so before Brexit )

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

well it was either that or the couriers do it, someone's gotta charge the money .... this is what they voted for surely or did I miss that bit ?



On another note IIRC the UK picks up the healthcare tab for uk pensioners resident in Spain - no ehic needed

On the VAT and Duty question - it is not the way it was pre-Brexit, they have changed the rules and vendors are opting out.

On the EHIC, it is a pan EU system. The UK has left the EU and now has to set up a new system for each EU country to pay the equivalent of the EHIC, which is more troublesome, and presumably costs more to administer.

But that is Brexit - why do something within the EU when you can do a lesser job at more cost outside it.

On an aside re the EHIC. The UK, prior to the vote in 2016, had no general system within the NHS to charge patients money for the services they had from the NHS and so did not routinely charge back for EHIC patients. They do now.

However, most EU states had and did charge back.

AutoTuning

That VAT change has even resulted in a lot of US websites refusing U.K. orders. You have to be very careful that they don’t think Ireland is in the U.K. or you can get refused services on the basis they’re afraid they’ll be caught up in that tax issue.

It’s extremely expensive and cumbersome for small retailers or even larger companies that have only occasional U.K. customers to have the systems in place to collect U.K. VAT. So they’re just losing access to international online retailers.

It’s not Brexit related, but it just coincides with it.