Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

sondagefaux

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fair enough but are you saying that Ireland is seriously cutting corners in regards to customs procedures and considering relaxing livestock rules according to a number of news outlets (doing this unilaterally) because of delays just out of the goodness of it heart?

There are no reports that Ireland is seriously cutting corners. Facilitation within the rules is not seriously cutting corners.

In the meantime, here's Johnson lying his arse off about why traffic through Holyhead has slumped:

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/truckers-bypassing-holyhead-dublin-route-19621056

Datacore

He doesn’t know or care why it’s slumped as it’s not in England, or anywhere near anyone he went to school with. He heard: “Something about something in a Welsh or Belfast accent...”

So you got a pompous “wiffle waffle piffle paffle ... needs more umph! Hurrah! And that’s how we beat Cambridge in the Boat Race!”

Geuze

ambro25 wrote: »

Nowhere near as big as the DB Schenker announcement today, though.

What is that?

sondagefaux

Geuze wrote: »

What is that?

They've suspended road transport between continental Europe and UK until further notice due to Brexit disruption.

Imreoir2

Geuze wrote: »

What is that?

DB Schenker, one of the world’s largest transport companies, has halted deliveries to the UK.

Already had a knock on impact on car manufacturing, Honda has suspended production temporarily.

For the last few years people warned that Brexit might stop JIT production lines, it just happened.

sondagefaux

ambro25 wrote: »

Not a clue.

But I would presume that Stena, as a private business owing a fiduciary duty to its shareholders, besides being a decades-old hand at the RoRo game and freight logistics/customs generally, did their homework prior to recalibrating their resource allocation.

Plenty of demand for ferries from Ireland to France.

No space on the DFDS services between Rosslare and Dunkirk until the 8pm sailing.

That'll set you back £1200 if booking from the UK.



Loads of space on Dublin to Holyhead ferries.

tubercolossus

sondagefaux wrote: »

Ever been in a trade union? They're excellent at looking after their members' interests.
Non-members? They don't give a damn.
Same with the European Union.

I'm alright, Jacques.

sondagefaux

tubercolossus wrote: »

I'm alright, Jacques.

New members always welcome. Terms & Conditions apply.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Have you read up on this?I`ve attached a link to the Irish examiner. There are also articles about Ireland looking at ways to ease checks on food and livestock between Ireland and the UK (Irish Times)Once again,I realise Ireland is doing this in it`s own interests.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40203365.html

It looks like you didn't go far enough down that rabbit-hole, Rob. The "easing" of restrictions is nothing more than giving hauliers a number that tells Revenue that they're boarding the ferry with incomplete paperwork, thereby automatically indicating to revenue that they know they're non-compliant and will need help when they disembark in Ireland. For some of them, the three or four hours on the ferry will be enough for their dispatching clients to get things in order; for others, they get parked up in Dublin for as long as it takes. I think I read yesterday that so far it's averaging around three or four hours, but some trucks have been there for three or four days.

beggars_bush

Nody wrote: »

Rob, I think there's a key part you're currently missing here and I'm being honest and not trying to BS you. The customs controls right now are the lowest bar they are ever going to be. Come April the bar goes up for all incoming trade. Come June they go up again for export to Ireland and on top of that UK claims they will start doing their inbound controls (I doubt that but still) which adds yet more delays in the other direction. The point being things are not going to get easier with time; the requirements and forms are only going up from now.

Yes; the companies will be better at doing it but even at the Swiss border which is very efficient you're talking 30 min per truck to go through if all paperwork is in order. Yes, it takes 1 min at the border itself but that's because the truck driver have already parked outside, stood in queue, gone in and got all papers checked and approved, and then goes to the 1 min border passage; and if not they have to wait there until they do. The problem UK experience now is a very simple one; a) they don't have enough vets to do the sealing of trucks (because their vets doing the job was eastern European once who now don't make enough money to meet the threshold and left), b) companies not knowing what they need to do (this is pure British company failure and you can see it expressed in many articles such as "We had to rebrand all the pallets", well duh, you did not do it correctly in the first place etc.) and c) lack of customs agents (remember 50k agents required; UK has recruited basically none of those).

None of those are impossible to fix but they all come with a significant cost and a significant time span to get them sorted out, and by then the supply chains have already changed drastically to accommodate the new reality. UK don't have a year to sort this out; they got a month or two at best before things will be rerouted to new supply chains instead. UK fishers going to Denmark instead of British ports to avoid the hassle is an example of something that will permanently change the route for fish processing; they are not going to come back to British ports in 2022 once things are better hopefully and take a gamble that it's now sorted. Once those supply chains goes they are gone and they are being looked at right now to fix the issue. Companies don't have months and months of free cash to burn to survive it; they will need to shut down or change the supply chains. This will mean finding UK markets for their goods or simply hanging up the boots like many Fishers will have to do by the looks of it. Same will happen in NI with the food markets; they will be re-routed to EU based companies instead and once done they are not coming back to UK. That's a volume drop that has to be absorbed in the UK supply lines in some form; either cost cuts (i.e. fire people) or raised prices to compensate. Big companies can handle it; small companies can not and will have to adjust to a UK only market going forward.

will it lead to NI residents coming over the border to do their shopping?

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

It looks like you didn't go far enough down that rabbit-hole, Rob. The "easing" of restrictions is nothing more than giving hauliers a number that tells Revenue that they're boarding the ferry with incomplete paperwork, thereby automatically indicating to revenue that they know they're non-compliant and will need help when they disembark in Ireland. For some of them, the three or four hours on the ferry will be enough for their dispatching clients to get things in order; for others, they get parked up in Dublin for as long as it takes. I think I read yesterday that so far it's averaging around three or four hours, but some trucks have been there for three or four days.

Until the UK gets its act together and looks into the system used by Switzerland which another poster mentioned yesterday it seems these delays will remain. It remains to be seen to what extent they can be streamlined although i do remember you commenting about delays at the Swiss border some time ago (despite Switzerland being quite on the ball)

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Until the UK gets its act together and looks into the system used by Switzerland which another poster mentioned yesterday it seems these delays will remain. It remains to be seen to what extent they can be streamlined although i do remember you commenting about delays at the Swiss border some time ago (despite Switzerland being quite on the ball)

Do you wish to retract your earlier post regarding Ireland cutting corners?

I think it's important to note it categorically false, so as to avoid anyone else repeating it.

Ireland is not avoiding any obligations of single market or customs Union membership to facilitate Brexit.

RobMc59

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you wish to retract your earlier post regarding Ireland cutting corners?

I think it's important to note it categorically false, so as to avoid anyone else repeating it.

Ireland is not avoiding any obligations of single market or customs Union membership to facilitate Brexit.

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

Dymo

sondagefaux wrote: »

The Tories are going to be as gutted as a fish in Scotland if this carries on.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LochfyneLangous/status/1349381418804195328

Some people just can't be kept happy.

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1349423698109980674?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

Do you think Irl should be going out of its way to facilitate the UK who deliberately is ill-prepared for something they were advised would create havoc?

schmoo2k

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

Are you talking about folks embarking from Ireland to the UK or from the UK to Ireland?

I would have had thought that Ireland would have no control over who embarks from the UK (would be forced to park them up in Ireland or send them back).

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do you think Irl should be going out of its way to facilitate the UK who deliberately is ill-prepared for something they were advised would create havoc?

And has damaged Ireland's economy severely. For which, there has never been a British government apology.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

It's starting to dawn on many Irish businesses for the first time that they have a massive advantage over their traditional GB competitors in the EU market.

There won't be tears shed for the old Irish sea trade once they see the profits.

dogbert27

Dymo wrote: »

Some people just can't be kept happy.

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1349423698109980674?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Well that just sums up the last 4 years really and the mentality of the Brexiteers.

Sticking it to the EU without knowing what exactly they were sticking and then realising too little too late the sticky side is on them!

ancapailldorcha

Dymo wrote: »

Some people just can't be kept happy.

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1349423698109980674?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

It's why I can't sympathise. I can't imagine that the fishing industry doesn't have some form of publication that would have warned about the dangers of Brexiting. Well, maybe such publications supported leave but either way my reserves of sympathy are done.

We've known that the Conservatives wanted to take the UK out of the single market and customs union which means delays and customs checks. We know that fish and other seafood are temperature and time sensitive so they either go off or require more expensive refrigerated freight.

Either way, it's hard to muster much sympathy.

Leroy42

What you are failing to understand is that any concerns were waved away as Project Fear. Brexit had no downsides, they need us more than we need them.

In terms of fishing, all that was going to happen was that Scottish fishermen would get sole access to Uk fishing waters. The Spanish, French etc would be kicked out, leaving massive increased capacity to the UK fishermen to catch and then sell.

There would be no barriers, no issues. A simply taking back control, it was nothing but positive.

Place yourself into a fishermans position. He has seen foreign vessels take the vast majority of quotas for years, leaving them with basic levels of income. Along comes the Brexit movement promising that al that will be sorted, and that you will now have the ability, no the right, to catch as much as you want and sell it all. Imagine the profits. Imagine the new boats. Finally my kids will want to stay in the industry. The port will boom.

That is the lie that they were voting under. Once you understand how they were manipulated it is actually very understandable why they opted for BRexit.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.

Not exactly. There's no "corner" to cut. The hauliers are taking product from departure point A via port B to port C and on to delivery point D. It's a straight line. In general, for reasons of efficiency, import checks take place ahead of time, at port B (this is the same as, for example, US customs pre-clearance at Dublin airport or French border checks at Folkestone end of the Eurotunnel). But the real, effective point of importation is the arrival of the load at port C. Ireland has taken a common-sense approach in (a) recognising that non-compliance is, for now, limited to a lack of paperwork; and (b) for the most part, that paperwork can be found and filed if someone is dragged out of bed a 3 in the morning and told to get it done before the ferry docks at 6am.

But ...

RobMc59 wrote: »

Until the UK gets its act together and looks into the system used by Switzerland which another poster mentioned yesterday it seems these delays will remain. It remains to be seen to what extent they can be streamlined ...

... a border is a border is a border, and (as you rightly remember) while the Brexiters frequently cited "Switzerland" as a example of how things would be fine, they ignored the fact that there are queues and delays at the Swiss border, and continued to campaign for a harder border than that which exists between the EU and Switzerland.

So even when the UK gets its act together, even the most streamlined procedures are going to come up against that hard, third-country wall. There is no way around that: as of Jan 1st, British people cannot move freely into the EU (the Swiss can) and British goods cannot move freely into the EU (the Swiss sort-of can).

Yes, creative solutions can be found, such as the suggestion in one of those Scottish fishery articles that there would be an "EU clearance facility" set up in Scotland. Great - yes, that could work. But nothing yells "sovereignty" and "take back control" like inviting a "foreign power" into your own territory to help sort out a problem created by a dysfunctional political system in another part of your own state. And it's not going to happen overnight.

(Side note: I'm not exactly sure where all these continent-bound fish are supposed to be going, because French restaurants are subject to Covid closures. That, in its own way, is a blessing for the Scots, as there'll be less pressure on continental customers to look urgently for alternative suppliers).

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

The problem is that your use of the term 'cutting corners' implies that Ireland is disregarding the rules to which it has agreed. This is not actually true.

There is a significant difference between flexibility within the rules, and breaking the rules.

RobMc59

yagan wrote: »

It's starting to dawn on many Irish businesses for the first time that they have a massive advantage over their traditional GB competitors in the EU market.

There won't be tears shed for the old Irish sea trade once they see the profits.

If I had a pound for every poster who come out with similar statements here over the past couple of years I'd be a rich man.Yet here we are,Ireland bending the rules because it's in their own interests to do so.Why?-because that's the easiest way to get freight into Ireland. I've no doubt trade via the land bridge will be adversely affected but wonder if travelling to Ireland via cherbourg is financially viable long-term Obviously,some know all is going to come along stating categorically they are certain it can be done much cheaper via France when in reality no one knows which route will end up being the most cost effective.

Hurrache

It's a Daily Mail story so I'd take it with a pinch of salt, but Johnson already puffing his chest out to look good for his brainwashed supporters.
https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/1349665906855718913

ancapailldorcha

Bluster. If he was going to, he'd have done that. The deal allows the EU to suspend parts of it if it thinks the UK is violating it.

This is just cheap talk for his base and nothing more.

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The problem is that your use of the term 'cutting corners' implies that Ireland is disregarding the rules to which it has agreed. This is not actually true.

There is a significant difference between flexibility within the rules, and breaking the rules.

This post is an example of posters being ok with 'flexibility 'of rules when it suits but being outraged if the UK do the same and use the system to suit itself.I agree, the initial trading/haulage arrangements are well below whats expected but I do expect that to improve with time.It will never be a seamless operation but I'd hope and expect UK hauliers to sort it over the coming weeks.

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I retract nothing,allowing embarkation without the correct paperwork is cutting corners.I understand Ireland is doing this to help alleviate a situation caused by British hauliers being unprepared but they aren't doing it to help them,Ireland is doing it in its own interests.

You do realise that the embarkation point is in the UK and not Ireland? I know this isn't your point, but you seem to be suggesting that Irish authorities have the power to stop people boarding a ship in another country.

The actual point of entry is in Dublin port, not Holyhead. That's where clearance takes place. Pre-clearance is just a method of speeding up the clearance procedure, it's not a substitute for it.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do you think Irl should be going out of its way to facilitate the UK who deliberately is ill-prepared for something they were advised would create havoc?

Ireland is going out of it's way because its in Irelands interests to do so which contradicts what a number of posters are claiming here that the landbridge can easily and cost effectively bypassed via cherbourg.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

If I had a pound for every poster who come out with similar statements here over the past couple of years I'd be a rich man.Yet here we are,Ireland bending the rules because it's in their own interests to do so.Why?-because that's the easiest way to get freight into Ireland. I've no doubt trade via the land bridge will be adversely affected but wonder if travelling to Ireland via cherbourg is financially viable long-term Obviously,some know all is going to come along stating categorically they are certain it can be done much cheaper via France when in reality no one knows which route will end up being the most cost effective.

We know which route was the most efficient, it was the land bridge, both in terms of cost and time. That is why the majority of trade was transported using that route. Brexit has changed that and now avoiding the UK is a better option for business given the added delays and uncertainty that Brexit has brought.

The direct route to France will add cost, but in a predictable and managable manner. It's not ideal, but still much better than being stuck in the UK's position with unavoidable delays of unknown quantity, and added administrative as well as transport costs which are far worse than anything faced by business here.