Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yet here we are,Ireland bending the rules because it's in their own interests to do so.Why?-because that's the easiest way to get freight into Ireland.

Again, you're inaccurately extrapolating from headlines into real life. The "bending" of the rules applies only to the parts of the process that are not rules, merely pre-rules processes.

As previously mentioned, Revenue has stated that any haulier using the workaround is, very deliberately and intentionally, announcing to Revenue that they are non-compliant and will - in 100% of cases - be directed into the holding zone in the Irish port of arrival while awaiting confirmation of their updated status.

There's a three hour window between getting onto the ferry and getting off the ferry when non-compliant loads have absolutely no chance of entering the Irish market, during which someone in an office somewhere in Ireland or GB can sort out paperwork problems. If they do, then the truck can leave almost as soon as it disembarks; if they don't, then it sits in the holding zone until the rules are followed.

No corners cut, no rules bent or broken.

RobMc59

prawnsambo wrote: »

You do realise that the embarkation point is in the UK and not Ireland? I know this isn't your point, but you seem to be suggesting that Irish authorities have the power to stop people boarding a ship in another country.

The actual point of entry is in Dublin port, not Holyhead. That's where clearance takes place. Pre-clearance is just a method of speeding up the clearance procedure, it's not a substitute for it.

The UK isn't doing this, it's Ireland and it's not doing it to help out the UK-Are you suggesting that UK hauliers are getting on the ferries without clearance to do so from Ireland?

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland is going out of it's way because its in Irelands interests to do so which contradicts what a number of posters are claiming here that the landbridge can easily and cost effectively bypassed via cherbourg.

The only thing relaxed was safety and security declarations, and as someone already explained to you, that was just to allow the MRN number be used in its place. You seem to have the impression that all goods are just being waived through, as if the UK were still in the EU.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK isn't doing this, it's Ireland ...

The UK isn't doing this. No. "Don't expect us to check anything coming into our country coz we don't have the resources. #TakeBackControl"

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

This post is an example of posters being ok with 'flexibility 'of rules when it suits but being outraged if the UK do the same and use the system to suit itself.I agree, the initial trading/haulage arrangements are well below whats expected but I do expect that to improve with time.It will never be a seamless operation but I'd hope and expect UK hauliers to sort it over the coming weeks.

The opperation of the border will likely improve with time, but the overall conditions in which the border opperates are likely to worsen further as there are still a number of degorations to the rules that will lapse in the next three to six months.

British businesses have already received a rude awakening due to the new trading conditions that apply, and this is at a time of reduced trade volumes and before the full terms of the agreement are implemented. What we are seeing now is essentially the new normal, which will actually get worse in some respects for business in Britain.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Again, you're inaccurately extrapolating from headlines into real life. The "bending" of the rules applies only to the parts of the process that are not rules, merely pre-rules processes.

As previously mentioned, Revenue has stated that any haulier using the workaround is, very deliberately and intentionally, announcing to Revenue that they are non-compliant and will - in 100% of cases - be directed into the holding zone in the Irish port of arrival while awaiting confirmation of their updated status.

There's a three hour window between getting onto the ferry and getting off the ferry when non-compliant loads have absolutely no chance of entering the Irish market, during which someone in an office somewhere in Ireland or GB can sort out paperwork problems. If they do, then the truck can leave almost as soon as it disembarks; if they don't, then it sits in the holding zone until the rules are followed.

No corners cut, no rules bent or broken.

I'm not disputing there will be delays caused by this although you appear to suggest if everyone on the UK side of things gets their act together there will still be delays but this will be infinity more bearable.
Let's not forget, following the 31st December there were numerous reports of super efficient EU border staff getting it wrong regarding UK citizens access to certain countries-Its a new situation for everyone so there's bound to be glitches and cockups at the start.

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

31st December there were numerous reports of super efficient EU border staff getting it wrong regarding UK citizens access to certain countries

It was an incident in one particular country/airport wasn't it? The numerous reports were about the same thing.

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK isn't doing this, it's Ireland and it's not doing it to help out the UK-Are you suggesting that UK hauliers are getting on the ferries without clearance to do so from Ireland?

You seem confused. Perhaps you should read up on what is needed to export goods to another country. There are plenty of resources available, but in short, the importing country gets to check the goods on arrival.

Gerry T

RobMc59 wrote:

I'm not disputing there will be delays caused by this although you appear to suggest if everyone on the UK side of things gets their act together there will still be delays but this will be infinity more bearable. Let's not forget, following the 31st December there were numerous reports of super efficient EU border staff getting it wrong regarding UK citizens access to certain countries-Its a new situation for everyone so there's bound to be glitches and cockups at the start.

Rob, im catching up on this thread after a couple of days. You seem to be either ignoring or at best not understanding what is being said about border checks in IRL.
In very simple language IRL is following EU rules and barnier will be over soon to give us a gold star and badge. Irl is not flexing or breaking the rules.
Second in 3 and 6 months time the rules are going to be tighter because the deal that was struck allowed an ease in period, at that point IRL will continue to follow the rules.
If the UK don't get their act together then the project fear predictions are going to fall very short of reality.

Hopefully that explains what people have being posting.

Unfortunatly for the UK Covid has taken so much of the media attention the brexit shambles is being ignored or labeled 'not a priority' and just teething issues.

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The opperation of the border will likely improve with time, but the overall conditions in which the border opperates are likely to worsen further as there are still a number of degorations to the rules that will lapse in the next three to six months.

British businesses have already received a rude awakening due to the new trading conditions that apply, and this is at a time of reduced trade volumes and before the full terms of the agreement are implemented. What we are seeing now is essentially the new normal, which will actually get worse in some respects for business in Britain.

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

yagan

We can't make any exceptions for Irish Sea arrivals, because then every other importer to the EU will demand the same easy treatment.

Britain wanted this, their economic contraction is ours to avoid now.

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

Could you outline for the slow learners how every aspect of their lives are controlled by 'Brussels'? Thanks in advance.

Silent Running

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK isn't doing this, it's Ireland and it's not doing it to help out the UK-Are you suggesting that UK hauliers are getting on the ferries without clearance to do so from Ireland?

We, the EU, are doing everything we can to help GB achieve it's stated goal of independence. If we can relax rules to help with cross border trade, we'd be mad not to. This good will can and will only last so long. GB is a third country and will be treated as such when they show that they can handle the task without assistance.

In the meantime, the EU can do some rule softening to smooth the flow. I can't believe that you're using this as a stick to beat Ireland with... well maybe I can.

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

It was an incident in one particular country/airport wasn't it? The numerous reports were about the same thing.

According to this Spanish article it was also other countries and is potentially violation of their basic rights ...
https://www.thelocal.es/20210108/lobby-group-expresses-concerns-over-violation-of-rights-of-british-residents-travelling-to-spain

Sam Russell

prawnsambo wrote: »

Could you outline for the slow learners how every aspect of their lives are controlled by 'Brussels'? Thanks in advance.

Well, for one, the EU have banned the use of insecticides that kill bees. We need bees for pollinating our fruit and other plants. Britain has exercised its sovereignty by allowing the farmers to use it, and therefore reduce the bee population.

I'd prefer the ban myself cos I like honey and apples.

The EU also bans chlorinated chicken, hormone and antibiotic fed beef, and GMO plants, plus many regulations concerning animal health. I'm prepared to accept that aspect of my life.

I'm not sure which rules from Brussels that rules every aspect of my life that I would object to though. Perhaps someone could post a few that they object to.

rock22

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

What do you mean by Brussels?

Rob . you are just spouting pro Brexit rhetoric . The UK is the only place i see where people are struggling with EU rules post Brexit. Perhaps it was earier to stay in

prawnsambo

Silent Running wrote: »

We, the EU, are doing everything we can to help GB achieve it's stated goal of independence. If we can relax rules to help with cross border trade, we'd be mad not to. This good will can and will only last so long. GB is a third country and will be treated as such when they show that they can handle the task without assistance.

In the meantime, the EU can do some rule softening to smooth the flow. I can't believe that you're using this as a stick to beat Ireland with... well maybe I can.

Hate to pull you up here, but this isn't relaxation of rules. Pre-clearance is a process that isn't actually in the 'rules'. It doesn't substitute clearance, it just highlights those who need further checking or additional paperwork. You can leave them in the port of debarkation to get their paperwork in order or you can allow them transit and let the paperwork catch up during transit.

The Raging Bile Duct

prawnsambo wrote: »

Could you outline for the slow learners how every aspect of their lives are controlled by 'Brussels'? Thanks in advance.

I was made eat Brussels Sprouts at Christmas even though I didn't want to just because they had the word 'Brussels' in their name. Bloody EU controlling every aspect of my life...

RobMc59

rock22 wrote: »

What do you mean by Brussels?

Rob . you are just spouting pro Brexit rhetoric . The UK is the only place i see where people are struggling with EU rules post Brexit. Perhaps it was earier to stay in

I've just posted a link showing EU officials are struggling with new rules too.

prawnsambo

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I was made eat Brussels Sprouts at Christmas even though I didn't want to just because they had the word 'Brussels' in their name. Bloody EU controlling every aspect of my life...

I had a croissant for breakfast. Am I under Brussels' control now?

Silent Running

prawnsambo wrote: »

Hate to pull you up here, but this isn't relaxation of rules. Pre-clearance is a process that isn't actually in the 'rules'. It doesn't substitute clearance, it just highlights those who need further checking or additional paperwork. You can leave them in the port of debarkation to get their paperwork in order or you can allow them transit and let the paperwork catch up during transit.

OK fair enough, let's call it using the rules in as helpful a way as we can.

ambro25

prawnsambo wrote: »

You seem confused. Perhaps you should read up on what is needed to export goods to another country. There are plenty of resources available, but in short, the importing country gets to check the goods on arrival.

Moreover, within that framework ("international trade between third countries"), who of the exporter or the importer is responsible for which part of which paperwork (and haulage choice, and freight insurance, and payment type, and...) gets negotiated (long-) before the sale, not when the truck rolls up to the customs booth.

That is what e.g. incoterms are for. One could usefully look up e.g. what 'EXW' (EX-Works) and 'DDP' (Delivered Duty Paid) stand for, to understand why the same container of widgets can have different prices to a same importer according to which incoterm is used. I'm confident that, 40 years on from EU accession, international price negotiation must be an art lost to much of UK plc...

...and the time for GB importers and exporters to reacquaint themselves with it was early last year (at the latest), not this month.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

Ah the resident "I'm not a Brexiter- I just like to use their arguments':
I think you'll find it is "reality" which has that level of interference with your day to day life - the same reality which interferes in interactions between the UK and any other external jurisdiction - and a reality which the UK had controlled and on which it has now thrown away control.

RobMc59

yagan wrote: »

We can't make any exceptions for Irish Sea arrivals, because then every other importer to the EU will demand the same easy treatment.

Britain wanted this, their economic contraction is ours to avoid now.

As I've said earlier,I've read this type of post on many occasions over the last couple of years(Britain is done for,over a barrel etc)But here's the thing,most of the posters who were saying that have disappeared..

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

According to this Spanish article it was also other countries and is potentially violation of their basic rights ...
https://www.thelocal.es/20210108/lobby-group-expresses-concerns-over-violation-of-rights-of-british-residents-travelling-to-spain

I think waving their blue passports and shouting "Hey Pedro you lazy oaf, we're expats, not bloody filthy immigrants you spanish toad now let us get to our British community" didn't endear them to the Spanish authorities.

Can't wait for the outrage in the British tabloids when Spain starts deporting the overstayers once their 90 day Schengen allotment has expired.

ambro25

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I've said earlier,I've read this type of post on many occasions over the last couple of years(Britain is done for,over a barrel etc)But here's the thing,most of the posters who were saying that have disappeared..

Relax, most of us are still here.

Here's the thing, I put that very same foreknowledge that you're on about, to good use and -given the inevitability of the current bin fire- Brexoded/changed countries in the meantime...

...according to a map I caught on Twitter today, from the 5th poorest region in northern Europe to the 2nd richest. Never would have done it without Brexit, and most probably still not if Brexit had gone EFTA-BRINO instead.

Got me Brexit dividend, I did :pac:

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

you appear to suggest if everyone on the UK side of things gets their act together there will still be delays but this will be infinity more bearable.

Yes and no. There are still two sides to the equation: the importer and the exporter. From now on, GB businesses have to know a lot more about what they're selling if they want to keep selling it to non-GB customers - where exactly did the component parts come from, does that country have a FTA with the EU, how much value did they themselves add to the product (if any), does it fall into a category that can be legally exported to the EU (as opposed to the US or Australia or South Africa); and if so, what declarations are required ... ? From this GB-based business point of view, does their EU market warrant the kind of effort it takes to get the goods produced, labelled and packed correctly?

And then, on the EU importing customer side, can they be count on the GB supplier to have their order delivered on time and at the price agreed? It's dead easy to place an order and hand over the price asked; but if parcels are routinely delayed at customs for inspection and/or have additional charges applied, would it be easier and/or cheaper to order direct from another EU member state. Have a look on the various Amazon threads to see how many boards.ies are switching from the .co.uk site to .de for reasons of convenience then extrapolate that to businesses that used to buy from GB. The kind of irrational emotion that drove the Brexit campaign exists in non-UK minds too - not all barriers are real.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

Ah the resident "I'm not a Brexiter- I just like to use their arguments':
I think you'll find it is "reality" which has that level of interference with your day to day life - the same reality which interferes in interactions between the UK and any other external jurisdiction - and a reality which the UK had controlled and on which it has now thrown away control.

I have to accept that Britain is no longer in the EU so obviously want my country to do the best it can in the future.
I hope the disruption caused by brexit will subside over the coming weeks and everyone can get on with their lives.There is inevitably going to be an increase of freight bypassing the UK landbridge longterm although I find the assertion super efficient EU hauliers will adapt whilst UK hauliers will collapse into a quivering mess ridiculous . Once the UK hauliers start to get their heads around this I expect things to improve although I acknowledge there will still be delays.

ArmaniJeanss

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've just posted a link showing EU officials are struggling with new rules too.

No, all your link actually showed is that some low-level Aer Iberia employees at Heathrow were struggling with the rules.

ambro25

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have to accept that Britain is no longer in the EU so obviously want my country to do the best it can in the future.
I hope the disruption caused by brexit will subside over the coming weeks and everyone can get on with their lives.There is inevitably going to be an increase of freight bypassing the UK landbridge longterm although I find the assertion super efficient EU hauliers will adapt whilst UK hauliers will collapse into a quivering mess ridiculous . Once the UK hauliers start to get their heads around this I expect things to improve although I acknowledge there will still be delays.

When are UK hauliers getting the extra 50k trained customs handlers required to process incoming and outgoing freight, and are the 8k UK hauliers getting any extra ECMTs beyond the agreed 2k?

Not meant as a glib retort, just meant to focus minds away from wishful thinking into pragmatic reality, here.

Shelves are getting bare throughout the country fast, ever more UK businesses are stopping activity with furloughed staff through lack of supplies/parts and with their cashflow already on its ar5e after the last year of Covid, and now there are burgeoning noises of a mass haulage strike in the UK.

This pile-on of a perfect socio-economic storm has the potential to get *very* serious *very* fast, and to blindside HMG wholesale, looking at HMG's performance.