Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have to accept that Britain is no longer in the EU so obviously want my country to do the best it can in the future.
I hope the disruption caused by brexit will subside over the coming weeks and everyone can get on with their lives.There is inevitably going to be an increase of freight bypassing the UK landbridge longterm although I find the assertion super efficient EU hauliers will adapt whilst UK hauliers will collapse into a quivering mess ridiculous . Once the UK hauliers start to get their heads around this I expect things to improve although I acknowledge there will still be delays.

It's no UK hauliers per say who have to get their act together it's UK businesses. The disruption you are seeing is permanent unless the UK decides to have a closer relationship with the EU. What will happen is that a lot of UK businesses will go bankrupt because of the costs imposed by dealing with the customs checks(in this thread there are a few examples) . This should not be a surprise it has been warned about since the brexit referendum was announced. The UK government decided it wanted to make it far more difficult to trade with its main trading partner with all the costs, job losses etc that go with that. And remember the UK EU only covers goods, not services. So this is only the start of the economic disruption.

yagan

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I think government here really need to setup and start an advertising outside of Ireland that “we are not with stupid”

There are customers at my employer asking if Ireland will leave EU (I believe legal will reply with a polite hell no) some think we (Ireland) are part of Uk still potentially mixing up with Northern Ireland

This is a chance for government to put some of that Eu money aside to advertising Ireland as a stable and reliable EU member that is not going anywhere

There's great opportunity for Irish businesses to bring more continental goods, brands and businesses to Ireland. It sheer intransigence that stopped them so far.

RobMc59

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

No, all your link actually showed is that some low-level Aer Iberia employees at Heathrow were struggling with the rules.

OK armani,just for you,here's a link from euronews which correct me if I'm wrong is a respected European news outlet saying the UK citizens had the correct paperwork.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03/spain-in-post-brexit-red-tape-row-after-uk-residents-prevented-from-flying-home

murphaph

yagan wrote: »

It's starting to dawn on many Irish businesses for the first time that they have a massive advantage over their traditional GB competitors in the EU market.

There won't be tears shed for the old Irish sea trade once they see the profits.

I'm looking forward to seeing more Irish products available to me here in Germany. I know it's corny but living abroad I love to have a product in my hands with "Made in Ireland" on it.

RobMc59

yagan wrote: »

I think waving their blue passports and shouting "Hey Pedro you lazy oaf, we're expats, not bloody filthy immigrants you spanish toad now let us get to our British community" didn't endear them to the Spanish authorities.

Can't wait for the outrage in the British tabloids when Spain starts deporting the overstayers once their 90 day Schengen allotment has expired.

If you have to resort to posts like that you're struggling yagan.

ancapailldorcha

murphaph wrote: »

I'm looking forward to seeing more Irish products available to me here in Germany. I know it's corny but living abroad I love to have a product in my hands with "Made in Ireland" on it.

Same here. I always try to buy Irish goods when I'm at the local supermarket. It'd be great if Irish exporters can get better access to European shop shelves.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have to accept that Britain is no longer in the EU so obviously want my country to do the best it can in the future.
I hope the disruption caused by brexit will subside over the coming weeks and everyone can get on with their lives.There is inevitably going to be an increase of freight bypassing the UK landbridge longterm although I find the assertion super efficient EU hauliers will adapt whilst UK hauliers will collapse into a quivering mess ridiculous . Once the UK hauliers start to get their heads around this I expect things to improve although I acknowledge there will still be delays.

IMO, the best way to think about it the example of airport security. Before 9/11 and particularly the liquids ban, it was all fairly straightforward.

It then became a real mess and caused huge issues and more and more rules, and tougher implenmtation of the rules, was brought in.

Over time the most extreme issues were resolved through a combination of additional work and resources at the airports and change in behaviour and expeactions from passengers.

But there is no doubt that airport security is much more a hassle than previously, been with the improvements. The time it takes for start, the hassle. Has everything been taken out, laptops, is that tube of toothpaste too big?

It ended up costing everybody. The airports themselves, who passed on the cost to airllies, who passed it on to customers. The time, the hassle.

So whilst to many it has become the new norm, they is no one that can argue that it is better (from a time and cost perspective) that it was before.

Of course, most people accept all the cost and hassle because they believe that it makes everyone safer, there is a clear benefit and reason for it.

And that is where the analogy with Brexit falls down. There is not going to be any benefit. AS I read in a tweet from Faisal Islam today, thrid party imprt procedures are designed for 'exotic' type of products. They are not designed for mass quantities particularly with short life spans. Speed is not the main factor.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

You seem to scare easily. The idea that every aspect of my daily life is controlled by Brussels is laughably absurd.
You say you opposed Brexit, but at the same time come out with this mad Brexit propoganda, its odd.

murphaph

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is a consequence of brexit and the UK governments desire for reduced EU input into the day to day running of the UK.
I'd always thought remaining was the best option but the control brussels wants to exert over all aspects of day to day life is scary. Reading some of the posts here just how many accept having every aspect of their daily life controlled by Brussels is astonishing.

You don't talk like a remainer.

What particular rules from Brussels bothered you and what can you now do that you couldn't do a fortnight ago?

Patser

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I was made eat Brussels Sprouts at Christmas even though I didn't want to just because they had the word 'Brussels' in their name. Bloody EU controlling every aspect of my life...

If they were renamed Freedom sprouts or even better Sovereign Sprouts would you have been happy?

Gerry T

ambro25 wrote: »

When are UK hauliers getting the extra 50k trained customs handlers required to process incoming and outgoing freight, and are the 8k UK hauliers getting any extra ECMTs beyond the agreed 2k?

Not meant as a glib retort, just meant to focus minds away from wishful thinking into pragmatic reality.

I heard the 50k number many times and thought how could it be that much, considering the UK would all ready have customs officers so I had a think about it.
If we only consider ports there's 120 of them in the UK, so ignoring Airports customs officials have to deal with:

The UK Ports industry is the second largest in Europe, handling more than 500 million tonnes of freight each year, as well as over 60 million international and domestic passenger journeys.
https://www.maritimeuk.org/about/our-sector/ports/#:~:text=There%20are%20about%20120%20commercial,such%20as%20coal%20or%20oil.

Ports run say 300 days a yr, and lets say only between 6am to 10pm (under estimate) that's 2 shifts and there's 120 entry/exit points. So..

50,000/300/2/120= 0.5 people per port per shift

I know I'm simplifying things as some ports may only work a couple of days a week, but others would have a hugh volume of traffic. But when you start thinking about it 50,000 customs officials starts to look like a small number. Only a half person per port per shift additional per day. And this doesn't consider Airports and the added customs checks on passengers.

This doesn't mention the added 200 vets for customs, It would be interesting to see how the UK came up with these numbers.

CelticRambler

Leroy42 wrote: »

Over time the most extreme issues were resolved through a combination of additional work and resources at the airports and change in behaviour and expeactions from passengers.

But there is no doubt that airport security is much more a hassle than previously, been with the improvements. The time it takes for start, the hassle. Has everything been taken out, laptops, is that tube of toothpaste too big?

It ended up costing everybody. The airports themselves, who passed on the cost to airllies, who passed it on to customers. The time, the hassle.

So whilst to many it has become the new norm, they is no one that can argue that it is better (from a time and cost perspective) that it was before.

To continue the analogy, one of the big winners in this scenario was the (continental) high speed rail network. That little bit of extra hassle, those few extra minutes of delay, the annoyance of not being able to bring a pot of homemade jam back from a visit to Mammy persuaded a not insignificant number of people to switch from air to rail for their intercity journeys.

There's talk today in the UK of fast-tracking empty lorries heading to the continent to pick up another load for delivey to GB. Okay, sounds like a good idea ... but every one of those fast-tracked empty lorries is going to take up a place that would otherwise have been available to a full lorry with its paperwork in order; so facilitating supermarket imports penalises GB exporters, making it just that little bit less attractive to buy from a GB supplier. All those "little bits" add up.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you have to resort to posts like that you're struggling yagan.

Not to shítpost too much but from viewing "expat" forums there's still loads of Brits in denial about how everything has changed. There's still "plenty of the they need us more that we need them", but that's why come April we should be seeing the last of such delusions evaporate as the deportations start.

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

IMO, the best way to think about it the example of airport security. Before 9/11 and particularly the liquids ban, it was all fairly straightforward.

It then became a real mess and caused huge issues and more and more rules, and tougher implenmtation of the rules, was brought in.

Over time the most extreme issues were resolved through a combination of additional work and resources at the airports and change in behaviour and expeactions from passengers.

But there is no doubt that airport security is much more a hassle than previously, been with the improvements. The time it takes for start, the hassle. Has everything been taken out, laptops, is that tube of toothpaste too big?

It ended up costing everybody. The airports themselves, who passed on the cost to airllies, who passed it on to customers. The time, the hassle.

So whilst to many it has become the new norm, they is no one that can argue that it is better (from a time and cost perspective) that it was before.

Of course, most people accept all the cost and hassle because they believe that it makes everyone safer, there is a clear benefit and reason for it.

And that is where the analogy with Brexit falls down. There is not going to be any benefit. AS I read in a tweet from Faisal Islam today, thrid party imprt procedures are designed for 'exotic' type of products. They are not designed for mass quantities particularly with short life spans. Speed is not the main factor.

Which begs the question are the current third party import procedures appropriate for the amount of trade between the EU and UK?Despite the favourite saying here the UK is just another third party country now the volumes of goods flowing between them could possibly warrant new guidelines?
From the beginning of brexit negotiations it was always acknowledged this was a unique situation due to the amount of trade between both parties and geographical proximity.

ArmaniJeanss

RobMc59 wrote: »

OK armani,just for you,here's a link from euronews which correct me if I'm wrong is a respected European news outlet saying the UK citizens had the correct paperwork.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03/spain-in-post-brexit-red-tape-row-after-uk-residents-prevented-from-flying-home

I'm not arguing that they were wrongly prevented from travelling.
I'm taking issue with you grandly saying that this is evidence that 'EU officials are struggling over the new rules'.

It clearly seems to have just been 'grunts' at the desk who made the mistake. Not EU officials, instead lowly employees of Iberia and/or their codeshare partners.

The people who might count as EU officials (embassy staff, immigration staff) moved quite quickly to clarify that these passengers were entitled to travel, albeit presumably 12/24 hours later than they would have wanted.

Padre_Pio

yagan wrote: »

Not to shítpost too much but from viewing "expat" forums there's still loads of Brits in denial about how everything has changed. There's still "plenty of the they need us more that we need them", but that's why come April we should be seeing the last of such delusions evaporate as the deportations start.

I would imagine that Spain will introduce new rules to keep British immigrants and not have to deport.
It benefits no one to send them packing back to Britain.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question are the current third party import procedures appropriate for the amount of trade between the EU and UK?Despite the favourite saying here the UK is just another third party country now the volumes of goods flowing between them could possibly warrant new guidelines?
From the beginning of brexit negotiations it was always acknowledged this was a unique situation due to the amount of trade between both parties and geographical proximity.

Simple answer: no - but that's exactly why the EU (and others) said that no version of Brexit could ever work. However, the UK as a whole and the Tory party in particular, decided that, out of all the choices available, they wanted this unsatisfactory arrangement. Right up until Dec 31st they could have opted for something more sensible, but they didn't.

RobMc59

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not arguing that they were wrongly prevented from travelling.
I'm taking issue with you grandly saying that this is evidence that 'EU officials are confused over the new rules'.

It clearly seems to have just been 'grunts' at the desk who made the mistake. Not EU officials, instead lowly employees of Iberia and/or their codeshare partners.

The people who might count as EU officials (embassy staff, immigration staff) moved quite quickly to clarify that these passengers were entitled to travel, albeit presumably 12/24 hours later than they would have wanted.

I thought my saying they were confused is a more diplomatic description than they were 'lowly grunts'

Quin_Dub

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I would imagine that Spain will introduce new rules to keep British immigrants and not have to deport.
It benefits no one to send them packing back to Britain.

What benefit is there to the Spanish allowing them to remain if their only source of income is a British pension?

Who pays for their medical expenses etc.?

If they are there working and paying taxes etc. then yes , they'll work something out.

Retirees on the Costa Brava , Not so much.

murphaph

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I guess it takes time for appetites to change if locals don’t know what they are missing or there is not much imported demand (anecdotally a German friend loves the butter and whiskey)

Tho it could happen just look at proliferation of Polish shops in Ireland with mostly German products in them

A friend managing one said there’s no disruption due to brexit as most products came from Germany with fruit/veg from Spain in last 15 years

"Irish" means good quality here. Kerrygold is the best selling butter in Germany. When supermarkets have Irish beef on sale it will be clearly advertised as such with tricolours and pictures of cattle grazing in green fields. It's not sold as commodity meat like in the UK.

My local supermarket's premium beef is all Irish:
https://shop.rewe.de/c/frische-kuehlung-fleisch/?brand=Black%20Premium

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stern.de/amp/genuss/essen/irish-beef--darum-ist-das-irische-rindfleisch-so-gut-7690406.html

ArmaniJeanss

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I would imagine that Spain will introduce new rules to keep British immigrants and not have to deport.
It benefits no one to send them packing back to Britain.

There are probably limits to what Spain can do whilst maintaining their obligations under EU treaties. It's not likely they can do a solo-run on it.

Also one can overestimate the importance to Spain of these immigrants who often live a cash-only lifestyle.
If Barry pays cash to his fellow-Brit landlord, funds his day-to-day by doing gardening and cleaning odd jobs for cash, and spends his evenings spending money in a British-owned bar without a till - just how much is he actually worth to the Spanish economy?

Imreoir2

Gerry T wrote: »

I heard the 50k number many times and thought how could it be that much, considering the UK would all ready have customs officers so I had a think about it.
If we only consider ports there's 120 of them in the UK, so ignoring Airports customs officials have to deal with:

The UK Ports industry is the second largest in Europe, handling more than 500 million tonnes of freight each year, as well as over 60 million international and domestic passenger journeys.
https://www.maritimeuk.org/about/our-sector/ports/#:~:text=There%20are%20about%20120%20commercial,such%20as%20coal%20or%20oil.

Ports run say 300 days a yr, and lets say only between 6am to 10pm (under estimate) that's 2 shifts and there's 120 entry/exit points. So..

50,000/300/2/120= 0.5 people per port per shift

I know I'm simplifying things as some ports may only work a couple of days a week, but others would have a hugh volume of traffic. But when you start thinking about it 50,000 customs officials starts to look like a small number. Only a half person per port per shift additional per day. And this doesn't consider Airports and the added customs checks on passengers.

This doesn't mention the added 200 vets for customs, It would be interesting to see how the UK came up with these numbers.

Don't devide by the number of days as each official will work on most if not all of those days.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question are the current third party import procedures appropriate for the amount of trade between the EU and UK?Despite the favourite saying here the UK is just another third party country now the volumes of goods flowing between them could possibly warrant new guidelines?
From the beginning of brexit negotiations it was always acknowledged this was a unique situation due to the amount of trade between both parties and geographical proximity.

Of course they are not appropriate! Why do you think the UK spent years building the Single Market?

But 'will of the people' and all that, so now the UK is stuck with trading arangements that are entirely at odds with its circumstances and needs. That's Brexit for you.

I mean, the volume and nature of trade between GB and EU you point out exists because you were in the EU for 40 years.

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which begs the question are the current third party import procedures appropriate for the amount of trade between the EU and UK?Despite the favourite saying here the UK is just another third party country now the volumes of goods flowing between them could possibly warrant new guidelines?
From the beginning of brexit negotiations it was always acknowledged this was a unique situation due to the amount of trade between both parties and geographical proximity.

It's what the UK wanted.

yagan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I would imagine that Spain will introduce new rules to keep British immigrants and not have to deport.
It benefits no one to send them packing back to Britain.

Spain isn't a charity. If pensioners can't cover their healthcare insurance then Spain isn't going to entertain them.

So basically Brits who can't afford that basic legal requirement will not be contributing much to the local economy. Besides east europeans and swedes have been taking their place since the pound weakening in 08 reversed the dynamic.

Spain will still get those who do spend on their annual pilgrimages to the costas, however all that cash in hand work that many British survived on to stay under the radar there will be severely curtailed if immigration can now do swoops.

RobMc59

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What benefit is there to the Spanish allowing them to remain if their only source of income is a British pension?

Who pays for their medical expenses etc.?

If they are there working and paying taxes etc. then yes , they'll work something out.

Retirees on the Costa Brava , Not so much.

The NHS pays for any medical treatment/expenses for British people living in Spain. I asked my sister this very question who has lived there for over twenty years.

rock22

RobMc59 wrote: »

OK armani,just for you,here's a link from euronews which correct me if I'm wrong is a respected European news outlet saying the UK citizens had the correct paperwork.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03/spain-in-post-brexit-red-tape-row-after-uk-residents-prevented-from-flying-home

Euronews is mainly owned by Egyptian business man Naguib Sawiris

dilallio

Surely this has to be a spoof!

Fisheries minister didn’t read Brexit bill because she was “organising the local nativity trail”

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/fisheries-minister-didnt-read-brexit-bill-because-she-was-organising-the-local-nativity-trail/14/01/

Fisheries minister Victoria Prentis has confessed to not reading the post-Brexit trade deal with Brussels when it was agreed because she was too busy organising the local nativity trail.

Appearing in front of the Lords EU environment subcommittee as the UK fishing industry is plunged into disarray Prentis admitted to letting festive cheer get in the way of her scrutinising the deal on Christmas Eve.

Asked if her jaw had dropped when she saw the deal with the EU she said: “No, the agreement came when we were all very busy on Christmas Eve, in my case organising the local nativity trail.

Quin_Dub

RobMc59 wrote: »

The NHS pays for any medical treatment/expenses for British people living in Spain. I asked my sister this very question who has lived there for over twenty years.

Will that still be the case now , post-Brexit?

Do they pay your medical bills if you are living in any other country?

RobMc59

Patser wrote: »

If they were renamed Freedom sprouts or even better Sovereign Sprouts would you have been happy?

I could give an equally flippant reply but I know what that would get me..
More flippant replies!