Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

beggars_bush

He knows he has to win back all those seats in areas that voted for brexit

murphaph

prawnsambo wrote: »

We're going to have to build a bigger M11.
I think I heard that Rosslare currently has capacity for 50,000 freight units a week, so the additional sailing will probably bring that up even more. You'd wonder what Dublin Port will become in the long run if everything shifts to Rosslare.

It would be great if Dublin port could be relocated entirely to other sites, freeing up some great land for development.

I was disappointed the Bremore move never happened.

I would like to see Rosslare and Belview given investment with more compulsion to use railfreight for onward movement of containers and trailers throughout the island.

looksee

There is something reassuring about Brexiteers threatening to bring about Irexit - if ever there was a chance of ensuring it would not happen, a bunch of self-appointed English bully boys swaggering and threatening Ireland is well up there. Have they any notion of how pathetic they sound?

Enzokk

rock22 wrote: »

It looks like Stormer is just as deluded as Johnston in terms of UK future. here are some quotes from him, in Guardian this morning.
He is
“incredibly optimistic about the new relationship we can build” and that Britain must once again be “the bridge between the US and the rest of Europe”.

He drew on the examples of the work done under former Labour prime ministers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

“Britain needs to seize this chance to lead in the world again, just as Blair and Brown did over global poverty and the financial crisis, that’s what Britain can achieve,”
“close economic relationship” with the EU,

The current deal is the foundation of the EU-UK relationship. There is no worse they can do, but they can have a closer relationship without becoming EU members. Labour can dress BRINO as nothing more than a comprehensive trade deal to ensure less friction at the borders. Then they don't go near Brexit. This is actually quite consistent on what Starmer has been doing, not talking about rejoining but I think they will be looking to BRINO eventually and then rejoin. This however will take years, if not decades.

If the border friction continues and people and business suffer, you are going to have a hard time arguing that you need to continue on the same course. I am sure the Tories will try as they own this, but it will be harder to sell.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

Leave.EU communications director Andy Wigmore said the site would be back up soon.

“Our lawyers will be taking action against those – and they know who they are – who have broken those delicious EU laws they love so much,” he said.

Mr Wigmore dismissed Mr Richmond as a “third-rate EU fanatic”, adding: “Any more nonsense from Brussels-lovers like him and we may decide to put the full weight of Leave.EU behind the Irexit campaign.”

These guys sound completely and utterly demented.

It's typical Trumpy trolling. What they are saying is rubbish and makes them look like gobsh!ites, but they don't mind about that. The object is to get under your skin.

johnnyskeleton

rock22 wrote: »

It looks like Stormer is just as deluded as Johnston in terms of UK future. here are some quotes from him, in Guardian this morning.
He is
“incredibly optimistic about the new relationship we can build” and that Britain must once again be “the bridge between the US and the rest of Europe”.

He drew on the examples of the work done under former Labour prime ministers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

“Britain needs to seize this chance to lead in the world again, just as Blair and Brown did over global poverty and the financial crisis, that’s what Britain can achieve,”
“close economic relationship” with the EU,

In his defence, political speeches these days are almost all filled with vague self engrandising nonsense like that. Few Labour supporters are going to object to the idea that the UK will lead the world as a moral force for good, few Labour supporters will object to the idea that the UK has damaged the UK, few will object to the suggestion that they will have strong or even "special" relationships with the UK and the EU.

Meanwhile, while Biden will hope to undo some of the damage caused by Trump, he doesn't want to go back to the Clinton era of close ties and co-operation. Most likely there will be trade frictions between the EU and the US over airplane manufacturer subsidies, the NATO budget and China.

Bizzarely, even with Biden rather than Trump, the UK has a better chance of improving relationships with the US with Johnson at the helm than with Starmer. Johnson would:
1) commit to continued 2% GDP military spending;
2) throw Airbus to the wolves and happily give subsidies to Bombardier/Lockheed Martin/Northrop etc to set up factories in the UK;
3) follow the US line on China and participate in South China Seas operations with them.

It's great that Trump will finally be out of office next week (hopefully), but lets not pretend that the new US president is anything other than an establishment Democrat who will continue the same foreign and economic policy that has been followed by most of his predecessors (both Democrat and Republican) since the end of the cold war.

Ireland is in a reasonably good position to be a connection between the US and the EU, however, it is clear that our loyalty is firmly in the EU camp.

At best, the UK can choose to pivot more towards the US now if they want. But that will only further sour their relationship with the EU. More likely than not, the UK will be utterly dominated by the US if they do that.

The idea that the UK can have good relationships with both and be the nexus between them is just more pie in the sky from Labour. It is the same decisive non-decision making in terms of policy as led them to both support Brexit and not support it, to want a second referendum but very reluctantly so, to insist that it is of the utmost importance that before you do a Brexit you have a plan, but then having absolutely nothing by way of a plan of their own.

johnnyskeleton

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's typical Trumpy trolling. What they are saying is rubbish and makes them look like gobsh!ites, but they don't mind about that. The object is to get under your skin.

It would be great though if the case was referred to the CJEU for a preliminary ruling!

Sam Russell

Enzokk wrote: »

The current deal is the foundation of the EU-UK relationship. There is no worse they can do, but they can have a closer relationship without becoming EU members. Labour can dress BRINO as nothing more than a comprehensive trade deal to ensure less friction at the borders. Then they don't go near Brexit. This is actually quite consistent on what Starmer has been doing, not talking about rejoining but I think they will be looking to BRINO eventually and then rejoin. This however will take years, if not decades.

If the border friction continues and people and business suffer, you are going to have a hard time arguing that you need to continue on the same course. I am sure the Tories will try as they own this, but it will be harder to sell.

They (Brexiteers) have gone tone deaf.

Expecting exporters to Britain to register with the UK Gov to pay VAT to the UK Gov, and pay for the privilege of registering, and then collect the VAT and remit it to them would appear to be a recipe to curb imports - particularly from occasional transactions.

Then, exporters have to use the creaking CHIEF customs & excise system to fill out export documentation and again have to pay £157 per month to use the system. They then have to go to a pre-clearance site to have the paperwork checked, and to add insult, the truck is charged £50 per hour to wait in an area for hours with no facilities. The system is aided by Billy and Jack as alternative destinations for truck drivers as each Farage Garage fills to capacity.

Monty Python could not script this scenario as it is so utterly stupid - even for them. However, Brexiteers are working on a series finale scenes that is even more stupid. British fish, happier to rot on the quay side. Welsh lamb to go out of date in the Kent Farage Garage. English veal not fit for export because there are no vets to inspect it. They are working a on a few more story lines that will shock the unwary observers.

'Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive'

But of course, this is not the first time they have practiced to deceive, they are long term experts at it - just not good at seeing the results before they bite them.

Capt'n Midnight

beggars_bush wrote: »

He knows he has to win back all those seats in areas that voted for brexit

So let's have a mini leadership contest instead ? Maybe if it hots up at the right time it can be used as a distraction for whatever the Tories are doing at the time. :rolleyes:

Scottish Labour to elect new leader next month

rock22

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The idea that the UK can have good relationships with both and be the nexus between them is just more pie in the sky from Labour. I.

Yes, it was the sentence, "the bridge between the US and the rest of Europe" that highlighted just how arrogant and deluded even Stormer has become. Presumably they think that Europe is cut-off and we must rely on the UK to bridge our relationships with the rest of the world.

Seth Brundle

Did anyone see Rabb on Andrew Marr? Was Rabb actually challenged on his comments?

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1350740369756008452?s=19

prawnsambo

rock22 wrote: »

Yes, it was the sentence, "the bridge between the US and the rest of Europe" that highlighted just how arrogant and deluded even Stormer has become. Presumably they think that Europe is cut-off and we must rely on the UK to bridge our relationships with the rest of the world.

More "fog in channel, continent cut off" thinking here. Apparently even the Labour party suffers from exceptionalist syndrome. The only cure would seem to be a dose of reality taken daily. Oh well...

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

But of course, this is not the first time they have practiced to deceive, they are long term experts at it - just not good at seeing the results before they bite them.

I wouldn't say they're experts at anything. They're simply working with an absurdly compliant press and an exasperated populace.

The fishermen know they've been screwed over but of course the press and the government have no more use for them so expect to hear no more from them than the usual sob story pieces on Twitter from people surprised that voting for customs and bureaucracy resulted in customs and bureaucracy.

Reminds me of that bit of the Simpsons movie where the government drops a giant glass dome on Springfield and says to the citizens that they're trapped like carrots as rats can't be trapped that easily.

timetogo1

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Did anyone see Rabb on Andrew Marr? Was Rabb actually challenged on his comments?

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1350740369756008452?s=19

It was the Marr show so at a guess I'd say the answer to your question is no.

prawnsambo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Did anyone see Rabb on Andrew Marr? Was Rabb actually challenged on his comments?

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1350740369756008452?s=19

Doesn't look like it from following that thread on Twitter.

Although to be fair, that later interview wouldn't have changed Andrew Marr's approach. He's always been lightweight.

Lumen

rock22 wrote: »

Yes, it was the sentence, "the bridge between the US and the rest of Europe" that highlighted just how arrogant and deluded even Stormer has become. Presumably they think that Europe is cut-off and we must rely on the UK to bridge our relationships with the rest of the world.

Both Ireland and GB believe themselves to have a special relationship with the US, and I'd argue that from a cultural perspective Ireland have a much stronger claim, something which the English tend to be completely oblivious to as evidenced by their mishandling of the backstop and subsequent slapping down by Biden.

Nonetheless, both of them are heavily asymmetrical, and I'm not sure either has been proven to be reciprocal in terms of costly political decisions from the US (though I'd welcome examples).

For instance, had Bernie been elected I wouldn't have betted against a severe crackdown on US MNC international tax avoidance, even if it had torpedoed the Irish economy.

Anyway, the real bridge that Starmer has to build is between the Labour party and those English voters with a strong sense of national pride; that's his audience. He's not going to get anywhere by pissing on their jingoistic barbeque.

prawnsambo

Lumen wrote: »

Both Ireland and GB believe themselves to have a special relationship with the US, and I'd argue that from a cultural perspective Ireland have a much stronger claim, something which the English tend to be completely oblivious to as evidenced by their mishandling of the backstop and subsequent slapping down by Biden.

Nonetheless, both of them are heavily asymmetrical, and I'm not sure either has been proven to be reciprocal in terms of costly political decisions from the US (though I'd welcome examples).

I think the difference is that we know it's asymmetrical, the UK, not so much.

bob mcbob

Sam Russell wrote: »

They (Brexiteers) have gone tone deaf.

Expecting exporters to Britain to register with the UK Gov to pay VAT to the UK Gov, and pay for the privilege of registering, and then collect the VAT and remit it to them would appear to be a recipe to curb imports - particularly from occasional transactions.

Then, exporters have to use the creaking CHIEF customs & excise system to fill out export documentation and again have to pay £157 per month to use the system. They then have to go to a pre-clearance site to have the paperwork checked, and to add insult, the truck is charged £50 per hour to wait in an area for hours with no facilities. The system is aided by Billy and Jack as alternative destinations for truck drivers as each Farage Garage fills to capacity.

Monty Python could not script this scenario as it is so utterly stupid - even for them. However, Brexiteers are working on a series finale scenes that is even more stupid. British fish, happier to rot on the quay side. Welsh lamb to go out of date in the Kent Farage Garage. English veal not fit for export because there are no vets to inspect it. They are working a on a few more story lines that will shock the unwary observers.

'Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive'

But of course, this is not the first time they have practiced to deceive, they are long term experts at it - just not good at seeing the results before they bite them.

It is not just food exports impacted -

Almost a third of Leon Paul’s £7m annual turnover is to customers in EU countries. On average each order to the EU has been worth about £200. But the European export side of the business is now looking increasingly unsustainable.

“We did everything we could to prepare for Brexit and are part of the DTI’s export champion community,” says Paul. But since 1 January, his firm – like other UK exporters – has been hit by three new charges. And four days ago the firm discovered another one that his customers in the EU will have to pay on receiving the goods.

“As far as I can see, currently, companies like ours in the UK are not going to be able to do ‘end sales’ to customers in the EU any more. Particularly, small orders for anything under £100 will be completely impossible,” says Paul.


The clowns in Westminster say that these are just teething problems - the reality however is -

Were it not for Covid-19, such stories would be dominating the news. Privately ministers know things will get worse. Behind the scenes civil servants in Whitehall are letting it be known that there is little that can be done because the exhaustively negotiated trade deal is largely set in stone.

“There is the potential to make some changes if both sides agree – that is in the deal,” said one leader of a UK business organisation. “But there is not much goodwill in the EU to help British business now. Business people like us can ask for more talks with the EU but optimism that we will get anywhere is in short supply.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/17/shock-brexit-charges-are-hurting-us-say-small-british-businesses

Piehead

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Did anyone see Rabb on Andrew Marr? Was Rabb actually challenged on his comments?

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1350740369756008452?s=19

No Marr is like a fairly useless robot. Can’t think on his feet. Just runs through his list of prepared questions.

sondagefaux

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Are all their distribution centres still in the UK? I remember Irish products had to be shipped to the UK, then shipped back to Irish M&S stores.

Sainsbury's are similar. A popular brand of NI-produced sausages sends its products to Sainsbury's depots in Britain from where they are sent back to its stores in NI.

Even worse, this brand is *only* sold in its NI stores.

A Dub in Glasgo

What kind of business would do that? That makes no sense whatsoever

Seth Brundle

I think in the last four years, I don't recall thinking of the effect of Brexit on the Falklands.
Neither, it seems, did Westminster...

https://twitter.com/StuartBudd1/status/1350548837220438020?s=19

https://twitter.com/StuartBudd1/status/1350555662170910723?s=19

johnnyskeleton

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Did anyone see Rabb on Andrew Marr? Was Rabb actually challenged on his comments?

In a weird way, Jacob Rees Mogg was probably 100% correct. British fish are so much happier now that they get to stay in the water rather than being dredged up by Scottish fishermen!

On the Falklands, it's worth remembering that the last time they were a big issue in the world was also when Ireland had a seat on the UN security council and we, inadvertently or deliberately, caused a severe deterioration with the UK over it.

It would be gas if the Irish DFA were to issue a statement saying that las Malvinas should finally be returned to Argentina! Anglo-Irish relations are pretty low and, while they can certainly go lower, I would not be morally opposed to kicking the UK govt while they are down

Capt'n Midnight

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think in the last four years, I don't recall thinking of the effect of Brexit on the Falklands.
Neither, it seems, did Westminster...

Maybe the Falklands could join Mercosur ? Like the way Gibraltar is now within Schengen and following many EU rules.



https://www.dw.com/en/eu-mercosur-free-trade-deal-what-you-need-to-know/a-49414103

After nearly 20 years of talks, the European Union and Mercosur — the South American trading bloc of Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay — have agreed on a draft deal that would create the largest free trade area in the world.

The UK hasn't done a trade deal with Mercosur yet. 113,000 The number of jobs in the United Kingdom that EU exports to Mercosur help support.

A Dub in Glasgo

This thread on twitter highlights the utter negligence from the UK govt regarding their systems for import/export. You would think after nearly 4.5 years after the vote that they would have sorted their s... out

https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1350367078662987777

An Ciarraioch

A Manchester haulier who appears to have been entirely ignorant of the NI Protocol:

https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1350873903317602310

Patser

Fish is the 1st highlight of the new order failings, because by their nature they have to be shipped fresh. Wait until the Lamb farmers in Wales hit the same barriers later in spring, or the beef farmers. Cheese can be stored for a while, but that's another massive UK export that'll hit headlines soon.

Also in the meantime the heat is turning up on the UK car industry - not just Brexit related, Covid staff shortages, and a global micro processor shortage also having an impact - but Nissan have cut some shifts due to parts being held up.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/brexit-jaguar-land-rover-vauxhall-nissan-coronavirus-car-production-122839848.html

breezy1985

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think the difference is that we know it's asymmetrical, the UK, not so much.

Many in the UK think it is an alliance of equals

Leroy42

It is clear that the UK government 'got Brexit done' without an actual plan of how to deal with the issues.

The only line now is that these issues are temporary, or not to do with Brexit.

But still, even after they got what they wanted still no actual details of what these fabled 'opportunities' actually are

An Ciarraioch

A trawler has been stuck in Hull since December, as fishing talks with Norway "have yet to start"!

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1350896124631130116