Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

fash

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Coveney did sound very frustrated but in the circumstances i think he got his tone spot on under a tough line of questioning from marr. Was a very resolute and impression performance i thought, even more so given the wishy washy labour mp who followed and talked about "posturing on both sides."

The UK Labour party really needs to take over the "get brexit done" line - "Johnson can't and will never get brexit done - he is too incompetent" etc.
Hit the incompetence and "just make it stop" demographics.
I understand that for the moment they need to be careful about being painted as remainers though.

Dempo1

Just Hillarious watching Simon "Mercs & Perks" Coveney on the Andrew Marr show, pontificating about incendiary spin, perhaps he might spend some time chatting to his FG leader and colleagues who appear to be experts on the Topic of spin.

DangerScouse

fash wrote: »

The UK Labour party really needs to take over the "get brexit done" line - "Johnson can't and will never get brexit done - he is too incompetent" etc.
Hit the incompetence and "just make it stop" demographics.
I understand that for the moment they need to be careful about being painted as remainers though.

Labour got absolutely trashed in the last election. They are an irrelevant political organisation now.

Hard Brexit is happening no matter what now and the Labour Party will never be forgiven for having Corbyn in charge when it needed strength in leadership at that time.

Shame on them.

DangerScouse

Dempo1 wrote: »

Just Hillarious watching Simon "Mercs & Perks" Coveney on the Andrew Marr show, pontificating about incendiary spin, perhaps he might spend some time chatting to his FG leader and colleagues who appear to be experts on the Topic of spin.

Bilderberg Simon came off really poorly I thought.

Very obtuse and demeaning to the Brits when we need calmer heads

Joe_ Public

fash wrote: »

The UK Labour party really needs to take over the "get brexit done" line - "Johnson can't and will never get brexit done - he is too incompetent" etc.
Hit the incompetence and "just make it stop" demographics.
I understand that for the moment they need to be careful about being painted as remainers though.

Seem to want to do nothing at all from what i can see. Just hide in the corner and hope nobody approaches them or asks them anything about brexit, let the government get on and own it. They cqnt say it openly but a no deal would be politically good for them. Its just a massive inconvenience for them right now though, at a time they could be mopping up poll points on their covid attack line alone.

Leroy42

This line about calmer heads keeps being trotted out. Adults in the room etc. It seems that ther UK can carry on with whatever rubbish they like, we now have the PM openly declaring that the WA was an attempt by the Eu to break up the UK!, but if anybody else shows even a hint of frustration they are making things worse.

For 4 years the EU have been the adult in the room, calm heads, whilst the UK have continued on with their nonsense and abuse and downright lies. And where has it got anyone? The UK have not moved one inch since 4 years ago.

They are still in their 'they needs us ...' rhetoric, still bleating on about some conspiracy to hold the UK captive, etc etc.

There is no appeasing the UK, they want everything on their terms and are prepared to sacrifice almost anything to get it.

Their actions this week would be seen as hostile by many countries. If for example Putin signed an agreement and then did this the media, including in the UK, would be up in arms about it. But because it is the UK everyone is supposed to just believe that good old British common sense will sort it all out and sure aren't they just having a but of a laugh.

I don't believe for second that No deal will suddenly bring them to their senses. Any deal that is done will only, as the last 4 years have proven , delay the inevitable and we will witness the continued attacks on the EU and constant uncertainty.

No Deal is bad, but its a plaster that needs to be removed at this stage.

ExMachina1000

One factor I don't understand is where will the EU border be between say Ireland and the UK?

Leroy42

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Seem to want to do nothing at all from what i can see. Just hide in the corner and hope nobody approaches them or asks them anything about brexit, let the government get on and own it. They cqnt say it openly but a no deal would be politically good for them. Its just a massive inconvenience for them right now though, at a time they could be mopping up poll points on their covid attack line alone.

TBF to Labour, the voting public pretty much told them that exact thing only a few months ago. They lost the 'debate' on Brexit. No matter which way they turn they will be wrong, so better to just shut up about it at this stage.

That it is largely their won fault is irrelevant .

fash

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

One factor I don't understand is where will the EU border be between say Ireland and the UK?

If the UK breaks the withdrawal Agreement, then eventually it will be at the border.

ExMachina1000

fash wrote: »

If the UK breaks the withdrawal Agreement, then eventually it will be at the border.

But if they don't break the agreement. Where is the border supposed to be under the terms of the agreement?

fash

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

But if they don't break the agreement. Where is the border supposed to be under the terms of the agreement?

It depends on what you mean. To some extent there will be a border of sorts in the Irish sea. To some extent at the Ireland/NI border.

ExMachina1000

fash wrote: »

It depends on what you mean. To some extent there will be a border of sorts in the Irish sea. To some extent at the Ireland/NI border.

I mean the eu border between Ireland and the UK. Wouldn't it mean checkpoints going into northern Ireland as you are leaving/entering the Eu/UK.

Manned on one side by British customs one one and European on the Irish side

Gerry T

ExMachina1000 wrote:

But if they don't break the agreement. Where is the border supposed to be under the terms of the agreement?

Goods being shipped uk-ni-roi will have a border check at either UK port or ni port.
Goods being shipped uk-ni that might go into roi would also be checked at either ni port or uk port.
The joint committee are working on a list of goods that fall into that category and requiring checks.
So the border is not 100%, but it is still a border.

Sam Russell

fash wrote: »

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

But if they don't break the agreement. Where is the border supposed to be under the terms of the agreement?

It depends on what you mean. To some extent there will be a border of sorts in the Irish sea. To some extent at the Ireland/NI border.

Well, if they close the ports in NI to imports and direct all traffic through Dublin, there is no breaking of the WA as far as the single market is concerned. There is already sanitary/phytosanitary checks, but at too low a level for single market compliance, but that can be increased, and if they allow EU oversight, that may be OK.

Of course, they will not do this. However Calais might be a place to watch in the short term.

Leroy42

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I mean the eu border between Ireland and the UK. Wouldn't it mean checkpoints going into northern Ireland as you are leaving/entering the Eu/UK.

Manned on one side by British customs one one and European on the Irish side

Yes, but the UK have 'promised', which I can only assume is stronger and more meaningful that an agreement and international law, that there will not be a border. They have continually promised to come up with a solution as to how they will achieve that.

4 years later everyone is still waiting.

But any day now.

Enzokk

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I mean the eu border between Ireland and the UK. Wouldn't it mean checkpoints going into northern Ireland as you are leaving/entering the Eu/UK.

Manned on one side by British customs one one and European on the Irish side

The Withdrawal Agreement deals with this. The checks take place at the ports as there will be no border on the island of Ireland. If the UK continues being a rogue state then eventually there will have to be a border with manned border posts, but I suspect that once the realities of this decision is known, the Calais-Dover crossing facing the same border checks as they wants between NI and Ireland and South East England becoming a lorry park, then they will quickly either agree to abide by what they signed or they will be run out of office.

We can slow play the consequences on this side, we just need France to up the checks for goods coming and going to the UK for a couple of days, maybe a week. That is all it will take. The UK public called the police when KFC ran out of chicken, what do you think they are going to do if there is shortage of much more important items?

Leroy42

Robert Buckland, Welsh Conservative Party politician and barrister serving as Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor since 2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Buckland

Was on Marr and when repeatedly asked if he would resign if the Uk broke international law he replied that he didn't think it would come to that and that a resolution will be arrived at.

So that shows that this is nothing more than a tactic to try to force the EU to back down. They know they can't really go through with it, but hope that by acting like they will they will force the EU to capitulate.

Shelga

Ah ok, Michel Barnier has just tweeted what another poster already explained- that the UK has not been refused third party status, but that they haven’t provided the information required to grant them that status. Would have been good if Coveney had clarified that point, but he was otherwise excellent.

Also on state aid: do countries outside the EU just do as they please on this? So if there’s a company in, say, Australia, that makes microchips for digital devices or something, can’t the Australian government subsidise them if they want and undercut similar companies in the EU? What I’m asking is, can’t all countries outside the EU already give whatever state aid they want, and does this not already give anyone outside the EU a competitive advantage?

Quin_Dub

Dempo1 wrote: »

Just Hillarious watching Simon "Mercs & Perks" Coveney on the Andrew Marr show, pontificating about incendiary spin, perhaps he might spend some time chatting to his FG leader and colleagues who appear to be experts on the Topic of spin.

DangerScouse wrote: »

Bilderberg Simon came off really poorly I thought.

Very obtuse and demeaning to the Brits when we need calmer heads

##Mod Note##

Cut out the nicknames please

Thanks

Gerry T

Shelga wrote:

Also on state aid: do countries outside the EU just do as they please on this? So if there’s a company in, say, Australia, that makes microchips for digital devices or something, can’t the Australian government subsidise them if they want and undercut similar companies in the EU? What I’m asking is, can’t all countries outside the EU already give whatever state aid they want, and does this not already give anyone outside the EU a competitive advantage?

No, WTO has state aid provisions. I'm not sure how robust they are.

Professor Moriarty

Interestingly, as the UK prepares to crash out, it will join some European countries who are not in the EU or who who don't have deep FTAs and ties with the EU. Those countries are: Ukraine, Serbia, Albania, Belarus, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia Herzegovina.

fash

Gerry T wrote: »

No, WTO has state aid provisions. I'm not sure how robust they are.

significantly less robust as they apply for WTO tariffs etc. - the plaintiff must prove a significant impact on their industry

Gerry T

fash wrote: »

significantly less robust as they apply for WTO tariffs etc. - the plaintiff must prove a significant impact on their industry

As in Trump and Airbus, he just slaps on a 25% tariff on Scotch Whiskey and threatens that industry. Scotch whiskey sales in USA down £300m this year. Their may be proofs but then there's quicker reactions/actions taken by countries.

Professor Moriarty

Gerry T wrote: »

As in Trump and Airbus, he just slaps on a 25% tariff on Scotch Whiskey and threatens that industry. Scotch whiskey sales in USA down £300m this year. Their may be proofs but then there's quicker reactions/actions taken by countries.

Ironic considering his mother was about as Scottish as you can get.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Interestingly, as the UK prepares to crash out, it will join some European countries who are not in the EU or who who don't have deep FTAs and ties with the EU. Those countries are: Ukraine, Serbia, Albania, Belarus, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia Herzegovina.

Nearly all of those are applicants / candidates to join the EU, bar Ukraine and Belarus.

UK most resembles Belarus at the moment - obsessed with "sovereignty" and borders.

Injuryprone

I don't understand why the EU aren't spinning this new UK bill as trying to impose a hard border into NI. Because that's what the result of this bill will be in a no deal scenario

Leroy42

Injuryprone wrote: »

I don't understand why the EU aren't spinning this new UK bill as trying to impose a hard border into NI. Because that's what the result of this bill will be in a no deal scenario

To what end? Nobody in the UK will listen, it will be back to the childish 'we won't put it up so its your fault ' rubbish and everyone else can see this for what it is.

Strazdas

Injuryprone wrote: »

I don't understand why the EU aren't spinning this new UK bill as trying to impose a hard border into NI. Because that's what the result of this bill will be in a no deal scenario

No need for them to get into a propaganda war with the Brexiteers or hurling jibes and accusations across the Channel. That's exclusively the terrain of the louts at No.10 and their media pals.

Hurrache

DangerScouse wrote: »

Bilderberg Simon came off really poorly I thought.

Very obtuse and demeaning to the Brits when we need calmer heads

What's this nonsense nickname?

Back to reality, Coveney was great, and it's pretty telling that a lot of others, both in the UK and Ireland, who wouldn't normally share viewpoints, thought so too.

reslfj

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I mean the eu border between Ireland and the UK. Wouldn't it mean checkpoints going into northern Ireland as you are leaving/entering the Eu/UK.

Manned on one side by British customs one one and European on the Irish side

The person border UK-RoI will not change. It's not enforced on the island of Ireland and I believe, somewhat enforced/checked between the main islands i.e GB<->island of Ireland. This is CTA agreed and not relevant to the EU or the WA.



The CTA / Schengen border will be between the CTA members (Ireland or UK) and the Schengen country you'r travelling to/from.
For non-Schengen EU member, it will be the same as from/to Schengen members. Personal passport control - and in the future potential a visa waiver for UK citizens too.

Schengen membership isn't the same as EU membership. It's a Schengen treaty has just being integrated into the overall legal and adm. EU framework.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/schengen_map.jpg

The NI protocol is about goods - a customs, a VAT, a regulatory, and a sanitary border.
In the case of a UK-EU FTA many/most/all tariffs may be reduced to zero, and VAT will use the EU VAT administration procedures. Regulatory+sanitary border will then be the only active borders. (the sanitary border GB->Ireland has been active in Larne (and Belfast) for very many years).

In addition there is a border for money, different excise duties in UK/RoI , mi/h vs km/s speeding, and some more. This is at the land border on Ireland and is mostly not enforced for privates persons.
People living at the land border can tell much more about the practical side of this.

Lars