Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

For anyone interested, here is the debate.

Miliband up for Labour and doing quite well after Johnson was up.

Enzokk

Missed this, debates about the UK and Brexit, only this time you have someone not intelligent enough in charge trying to ramrod a car crash of a bill to overwrite his own deal that he signed less than a year ago.

Some highlights so far before other MPs get their chance to show their hand or lack of thought,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1305540932075491330?s=20

And then Miliband did this to Johnson as well,

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1305540519179825155?s=20

Show him up for the charlatan that he is. He gave him a chance to clarify where his bill addresses the threat of a blockade. Johnson staid cemented to his seat because I guess he knows what Gove/Cummings wants to do with this bill.

TCDStudent1

Enzokk wrote: »

Missed this, debates about the UK and Brexit, only this time you have someone not intelligent enough in charge trying to ramrod a car crash of a bill to overwrite his own deal that he signed less than a year ago.

Some highlights so far before other MPs get their chance to show their hand or lack of thought,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1305540932075491330?s=20

And then Miliband did this to Johnson as well,

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1305540519179825155?s=20

Show him up for the charlatan that he is. He gave him a chance to clarify where his bill addresses the threat of a blockade. Johnson staid cemented to his seat because I guess he knows what Gove/Cummings wants to do with this bill.

Miliband was excellent in fairness to him.

Hurrache

Miliband gave him a jolly good thrashing alright, the second one, his summary, is pretty effective, while Johnson, as always, sits like a petulant child being scolded in school

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1305540943517540353
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1305544587939848193

Professor Moriarty

Hurrache wrote: »

Miliband gave him a jolly good thrashing alright, the second one, his summary, is pretty effective, while Johnson, as always, sits like a petulant child being scolded in school

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1305540943517540353
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1305544587939848193

Ouch! That uniting his predecessors comment is a stinger.

Enzokk

Here is the moment Miliband offered to give way to Johnson and the response from Johnson.

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1305543169380093952?s=20

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

Here is the moment Miliband offered to give way to Johnson and the response from Johnson.

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1305543169380093952?s=20

Excruciating to watch. It's obvious that Miliband is far more on top of the detail than Johnson.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

Excruciating to watch. It's obvious that Miliband is far more on top of the detail than Johnson.

Johnson has been exposed as the useless waffler he is. Starmer and now Miliband are tearing him apart. Imagine where we'd be if Labour hadn't had that waste of space Corbyn.

LuckyLloyd

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson has been exposed as the useless waffler he is. Starmer and now Miliband are tearing him apart. Imagine where we'd be if Labour hadn't had that waste of space Corbyn.

Well if the Labour Party might have bothered to try a leg and win an election to install a labour government we might not have Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings with a massive majority breaking International law. The centre part of the Labour Party get to stand across from Johnson now, to what end? A couple of zings on twitter?

Enzokk

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well if the Labour Party might have bothered to try a leg and win an election to install a labour government we might not have Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings with a massive majority breaking International law. The centre part of the Labour Party get to stand across from Johnson now, to what end? A couple of zings on twitter?

Well Labour did win the argument in December, so this is just icing on that cake.

Sammy Wilson had his contribution earlier, he had the nerve to mention the protection of the GFA and unfettered trade between NI and GB. I don't remember that clause, but I do remember the one which his party opposes of a citizen choosing their identity in NI. Unsurprisingly the DUP will vote in favour as they see it as a way to tear up the WA, which they warned against.

Professor Moriarty

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well if the Labour Party might have bothered to try a leg and win an election to install a labour government we might not have Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings with a massive majority breaking International law. The centre part of the Labour Party get to stand across from Johnson now, to what end? A couple of zings on twitter?

We are where we are. The best we can hope for now is that the Tories tear themselves apart. But 80 is a large number.

Shelga

Why were the DUP against May’s original plan for the backstop, when it kept the whole of the UK in the customs union?

briany

Shelga wrote: »

Why were the DUP against May’s original plan for the backstop, when it kept the whole of the UK in the customs union?

1. The DUP are Brexiteers

2. They thought they'd get their dream of a hard border in Ireland by resisting any compromises.

I don't really see the problem, anyway. The NI protocol includes a democratic mechanism to continue or end the proposed arrangements. The NI Assembly can vote on it once every four years, so they have an out that is all above board. The London government seems to find Northern Ireland deciding its own position on the matter to be distasteful, which I don't understand.

tanko

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson has been exposed as the useless waffler he is. Starmer and now Miliband are tearing him apart. Imagine where we'd be if Labour hadn't had that waste of space Corbyn.

The lack of enthusiasm from the tory backbenchers was very telling as Boris stood up to talk. It was obvious that their heart wasn’t in it.
He looked a pathetic figure as Milliband ripped him to shreds, all he could do was shake his head like a spoilt child. He didn’t even have the manners to sit up straight on the seat.

The game is up for Bojo and Cummings.
The EU just need to stick together and keep their boot on Johnsons throat, he has no cards left to play.

Irish Praetorian

tanko wrote: »

The lack of enthusiasm from the tory backbenchers was very telling as Boris stood up to talk. It was obvious that their heart wasn’t in it.
He looked a pathetic figure as Milliband ripped him to shreds, all he could do was shake his head like a spoilt child. He didn’t even have the manners to sit up straight on the seat.

The game is up for Bojo and Cummings.
The EU just need to stick together and keep their boot on Johnsons throat, he has no cards left to play.

Never presume the game is up, there's a ready made demographic of voters more than happy to oblige you and indulge even worse behaviour.

fash

briany wrote: »

1. The DUP are Brexiteers

2. They thought they'd get their dream of a hard border in Ireland by resisting any compromises.

I don't really see the problem, anyway. The NI protocol includes a democratic mechanism to continue or end the proposed arrangements. The NI Assembly can vote on it once every four years, so they have an out that is all above board. The London government seems to find Northern Ireland deciding its own position on the matter to be distasteful, which I don't understand.

Because the sting in the tail from Ireland/EU is that GB diverges from NI - so in 4 years plus time, the status quo remains "stay in single market". What the UK government is not doing is trying to engineer a situation where the status quo is NI staying aligned with GB.

briany

fash wrote: »

Because the sting in the tail from Ireland/EU is that GB diverges from NI - so in 4 years plus time, the status quo remains "stay in single market". What the UK government is not doing is trying to engineer a situation where the status quo is NI staying aligned with GB.

It might be the status quo in 4 years time, but the NI assembly would be free to decide if that status quo was working for them, and change it if they felt strongly enough that it wasn't.

As things stand, with the evaporation of chat about technological solutions, a sea border remains more workable of the two, although neither a border on land or at sea is in the spirit of the GFA. However, since the whole Brexit proposition was not thought through (and this is something of a hallmark of populist movements), one will now have to be chosen.

BluePlanet

Taking the mood of the current situation, it's heading to a hard border.

Personally i think the government here has missed a trick.
They should have been preparing for this since ages ago, pouring concrete and standing up actual border infrastructure.
Heck at this point they should have given the brits notice and had a weekend trial of managing border crossings.
Standing up infrastructure would show Ireland means business insofar as protecting the Single Market.
It would detooth the Tory gambit who are betting that Ireland buckles and carries it's water for them regarding dealing with the EU.
Could imagine the infrastructure could include a massive billboard that says something like, A United Ireland removes this.

fash

briany wrote: »

It might be the status quo in 4 years time, but the NI assembly would be free to decide if that status quo was working for them, and change it if they felt strongly enough that it wasn't.

A stable status quo has a distinct advantage over an unknown. The UK is changing the balance against Ireland

fash

BluePlanet wrote: »

Taking the mood of the current situation, it's heading to a hard border.

Personally i think the government here has missed a trick.
They should have been preparing for this since ages ago, pouring concrete and standing up actual border infrastructure.
Heck at this point they should have given the brits notice and had a weekend trial of managing border crossings.
Standing up infrastructure would show Ireland means business insofar as protecting the Single Market.
It would detooth the Tory gambit who are betting that Ireland buckles and carries it's water for them regarding dealing with the EU.
Could imagine the infrastructure could include a massive billboard that says something like, A United Ireland removes this.

I'd imagine the Tories are thinking they can survive say 10 years to get a Canada deal - and threaten Ireland in other ways (maybe CTA? not sure what else they've left - in a no deal, the land bridge cannot be relied upon). There seem to be comments from e.g. Mujtaba Rahman that EU will take gloves off:


Would be satisfying to see that.

Podge_irl

I have to say, there are more backbenchers coming out against this than I expected. I suspect most will abstain on second reading rather than vote against and it will still pass to committee, but all is not well for sure.

beggars_bush

the DUP making noise again.

they seem to think they can have their cake and eat it

Shelga

Lee Anderson, MP for Ashfield, just said something like "other countries are currently looking admiringly at our leadership"- I'm honestly starting to think they're all on drugs. Also Ian Dunt's live tweeting of this fiasco is hilarious :pac:

weemcd

Shelga wrote: »

Lee Anderson, MP for Ashfield, just said something like "other countries are currently looking admiringly at our leadership"- I'm honestly starting to think they're all on drugs. Also Ian Dunt's live tweeting of this fiasco is hilarious :pac:

If someone told me in ten years time, that the Russians had poisoned the English water supply with some kind of nerve agent. I'd believe it. Such is the farce that is the British government...

PropJoe10

Some of these speeches in the Commons debate are embarrassing. Rule Brittania is definitely alive and well in these people's minds!

listermint

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Some of these speeches in the Commons debate are embarrassing. Rule Brittania is definitely alive and well in these people's minds!

The creme of English upper class....

ath262

Shelga wrote: »

L... Also Ian Dunt's live tweeting of this fiasco is hilarious :pac:

+1 - his posts are brilliant, although I worry a bit for his sanity.

He gave up and open the beer soon after six, Wine after that, and just posted a photo of a bottle of Mescal!

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1305593035921797124

Sweet Christ on a bike, there is delusion and then there is this!

Headshot

Do we think if the Tories pass this that's EU done with the negotiations?

PropJoe10

Headshot wrote: »

Do we think if the Tories pass this that's EU done with the negotiations?

I can't see this bill getting through the House of Lords but it certainly won't improve relations, that's for sure!