Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Hermy

Lord Keen who acted for the UK government in the Supreme Court has just offered his resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54179745

Hurrache

Might be a bit weaselly all the same. He didn't resign, he just offered to, and Johnson doesn't have to accept it. So a way out for both of them if Johnson doesn't accept it.

Spleodar

If parliament doesn't hold them to account for misleading it, then it's parliament that has failed and politics that has been sullied and undermined.

All of these systems work because people agree to operate their systems of rules and more importantly the culture, moral and ethical codes and practices that go with them.

Johnson, Trump and their ilk are pushing those systems beyond their limits and riding roughshod over what they are.

Not everything is about pushing things out to the absolute limit of the letter of the law. A lot of it about culture and following precedent.

If the British or American or any other political system allows itself to be abused like this, the fragile and sometimes nebulous structures, systems and culture of these democratic institutions will crumble. They're social constructs and there's plenty of examples in modern history where they've they have fallen apart or been hijacked.

Politicians need to find their backbone and realise just how perilous a situation this is.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1306254032277733376

Legal action still on the table. I see this more of a sign of "we may have to do this" over "we will do this" to try and get the UK to come to it senses...but, I do not think that will be the case. Tony goes through it fairly well (as he always does).

fash

Spleodar wrote: »

It would seem the British (English?) Government said that no hard border was a red line to placate the Irish Government and the EU, when in reality it would seem they couldn’t care less if there were a hard border or not. They just “said stuff” to get past the preliminary talks to the juicer trade talks. That’s all they ever cared about. The “Irish Question” to the Tories was just another stumbling block to be dealt with by lies and deception.

The whole withdrawal agreement was done with fingers crossed behind their back and was clearly entirely about lying and manipulating to get to the trade talks and yet they’re the ones accusing the EU of negotiating in bad faith. They’re utterly untrustworthy. They lied to get elected. They lied to get Brexit to happen in the first place and they’re lying continuously during the negotiations.

From what I can see they don’t care about anything, as long as they’re getting the right tabloid headlines.

Actually the Irish question was always a tool for leverage: "give us a good deal - or we restart the troubles in Northern Ireland".
It is why the EU took it off the table in the withdrawal agreement - and the main reason why the UK is putting back on the table and reneging on the withdrawal agreement to do so.

Leroy42

It really is amazing that after 4 years we are pretty much back to the start.

The UK still have no real idea what Brexit is, or how to deal with the issues that Brexit raises.

Now they are in to the argument that the EU are being mean and it is simply not fair. Thats it. From "we have all the cards" and "they need us more than we need them' to cries that Barnier is a bit of a bully and the EU keep asking them difficult questions.

But through it all, and still now, the Brexit process ahs essentially been a case of the Tory party arguing with itself and blaming everyone else because it cannot come up with any answers.

Pablo Escobar

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1306254032277733376

Legal action still on the table. I see this more of a sign of "we may have to do this" over "we will do this" to try and get the UK to come to it senses...but, I do not think that will be the case. Tony goes through it fairly well (as he always does).

It'll absolutely be the case if nothing is agreed. The "appropriate time" is post-September.

CelticRambler

Gintonious wrote: »

Legal action still on the table. I see this more of a sign of "we may have to do this" over "we will do this" to try and get the UK to come to it senses...but, I do not think that will be the case.

From TC's thread:

16/ "The UK is indeed ‘operating EU rules’ right now as we are in the transition period,” the paper states. “We are still waiting for comprehensive information on what the UK’s future rules will be, in particular for imports, after 31 Dec and when these rules will be adopted."

Wouldn't it have been very helpful to the UK negotiators if they'd been able to point to a recent Agriculture Bill that included an amendment along the lines of "we'll protect our industry against cheap imports"; but no, instead we got a "trust us, it'll be fine - we'll deal with that later" response from Johnson-Cummings ... :rolleyes: To cite Darren Henaghan (MD of Borough Market):

Ministers have brushed off criticism from the National Farmers Union, among others, by insisting that the issue will be addressed in a future trade bill. The government’s recent election manifesto included a clear commitment to maintaining food standards, but its refusal to give substance to that commitment at the first opportunity speaks volumes.

Is it any wonder, then, that the agriculture ministers of the EU27 want to see the UK's new rules written down in black and white?

A Dub in Glasgo

Hurrache wrote: »

Might be a bit weaselly all the same. He didn't resign, he just offered to, and Johnson doesn't have to accept it. So a way out for both of them if Johnson doesn't accept it.

Reports saying he is gone

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1306277248773881857

What self respecting QC from Scotland would take his place?

20silkcut

fash wrote: »

Actually the Irish question was always a tool for leverage: "give us a good deal - or we restart the troubles in Northern Ireland".

That May as well be an outright declaration of war.
Surely we are not at that level yet.

I suppose it is more a case of give us what we want or we will create the conditions for re igniting a civil war the starting of which will not be our fault.

That’s the way they will spin it. But the world will see it different.

fash

.
Prepare for more "traitors" and "the enemy" talk...

Enzokk

Talking of declarations of war,

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1306259093619867650?s=19

Raab is in Washington and cannot wait to tell Nancy Pelosi that their position is the right one.

https://twitter.com/seanwhelanRTE/status/1306266125781684224?s=19

ExMachina1000

fash wrote: »

.
Prepare for more "traitors" and "the enemy" talk...

Nick with his 24k followers. Nick the sage. Nick the all knowing fountain of knowledge.

On second thoughts who is "Nick" and why should anyone listen to him?

"Anglo-European. Optimistic Arsenal fan, Agatha Christie head & whisky drinker. Purveyor of general englishness from a time before world lost its marbles"

Nick in a nutshell

Igotadose

Enzokk wrote: »

Raab is in Washington and cannot wait to tell Nancy Pelosi that their position is the right one.

I somehow think that won't go well for him. Not sure why I think that, but I do.
Perhaps because she's really sharp and factual and not afraid to wag her finger to morons? Raab is such an empty suit with a cranium to match. Maybe the Speaker of the House of Representatives can tell him where Calais is.

fash

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nick with his 24k followers. Nick the sage. Nick the all knowing fountain of knowledge.

On second thoughts who is "Nick" and why should anyone listen to him?


Nick in a nutshell

You robably should check out his scoops, list of "as scooped 6 months ago" and check out who retweets him before criticising - but ok.

Edit: to add, we've only 15 days to test this theory

Cole

Enzokk wrote: »

Raab is in Washington and cannot wait to tell Nancy Pelosi that their position is the right one.

https://twitter.com/seanwhelanRTE/status/1306266125781684224?s=19

Oh to be a fly on that wall.

briany

Igotadose wrote: »

I somehow think that won't go well for him. Not sure why I think that, but I do.
Perhaps because she's really sharp and factual and not afraid to wag her finger to morons? Raab is such an empty suit with a cranium to match. Maybe the Speaker of the House of Representatives can tell him where Calais is.

The UK government's position appears to be that they do not need the EU, if push comes to shove. Why, then, they're putting their hopes in a USA trade deal, I don't know. Well, I do have my strong suspicions, i.e. that they don't need the EU because they figured they could get a handy trade deal with the USA. However, this would undermine the idea behind not needing the EU in the first place - that being that the UK is a global country that can easily stand on its own two feet. Supplicating to the USA on a trade deal counteracts that notion. The UK certainly does need one large economic power to do business with if Brexit is to be any kind of success. Being out in the cold with both the USA and EU on Jan 1st 2021 sounds like a recipe for economic pain the UK will not be able to withstand without its citizens accepting a period of severe austerity in exchange for all this sovereignty. I'm not totally convinced that a Democratic administration would follow through on its threats to freeze the UK in the event of contravening the GFA and its current WA with the EU, but they certainly more of a chance of doing that than with a continuing Trump administration, so I expect the UK government to be looking on with great interest at political developments Stateside in the month of November.

CelticRambler

briany wrote: »

I expect the UK government to be looking on with great interest at political developments Stateside in the month of November.

Given that there's a real possibility that the colour of the next US administration will not be known until December - or even later - any sensible government would not opt to overturn their applecarts until that dust had settled. But hey, why start being sensible now ... :rolleyes:

Hurrache

SNIP. No name calling please.

briany

The UK certainly did agree to just what Raab is now accusing the EU of trying to do. Unless the UK are worried that the EU will seek to impose a harder border in the Irish sea than what's specified in the WA, I don't really see what leg the UK has to stand on.

Hurrache

His meeting with Pelosi and Richard Neal has just finished. Will be interesting to see what comes out of it, he apparently blamed the EU again during it though, of which no doubt Neal I'm sure corrected him.

Capt'n Midnight

In other news

Empire 2.0 takes a small setback Barbados to remove Queen Elizabeth II as head of state not unexpected but interesting timing ?


Keeping the lights on post Brexit just got a little more difficult.

Nuclear: Hitachi scraps £20bn Wylfa power plant

Hitachi is also scrapping its project at Oldbury on Severn in Gloucestershire despite describing both sites as "highly desirable" for new nuclear plants.

The Magic Money Tree may be called upon to keep the remaining projects going.

It's no secret that Boris Johnson's powerful adviser Dominic Cummings is a big fan of the idea of small nuclear reactors and EDF are telling him that big nuclear is an important stepping stone to small.

Ah. Oh. So it'll be a money pit. And reliant on Chinese money too. Too big and important to fail. Small nuclear works. Submarines have been using then since the 1950's. Just isn't remotely close to economic.

Big projects can sound great but, how do you pick winners ? How do non-technical people pick winners ? And where were they when ARM was sold to the Japanese ?

The UK will need lots of cash. It's not going to be easy if upset trading relations with the place where half their exports go.

An Ciarraioch

Hurrache wrote: »

His meeting with Pelosi and Richard Neal has just finished. Will be interesting to see what comes out of it, he apparently blamed the EU again during it though, of which no doubt Neal I'm sure corrected him.

https://twitter.com/BrianOD_News/status/1306334436884131843

Patser

Biden also chimes in, so that's the probable president-elect saying no US-UK deal if Boris goes ahead


https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944


Raabs trip to the US not going well

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/RepRichardNeal/status/1306340728319160320

Seems the Biden move is getting more support. Raab must have done as good as job as he has always done.

VinLieger

How ill informed are they that they thought that trip would go any other way? Especially with Dominic Raab in charge, a man who freely admitted he found reading the 40 pages of the GFA too much work

J Mysterio

VinLieger wrote: »

How ill informed are they that they thought that trip would go any other way? Especially with Dominic Raab in charge, a man who freely admitted he found reading the 40 pages of the GFA too much work

I believe he said something along the lines of he 'didn't read it from cover to cover'. Very taxing, those 40 pages. In reality, he had no feckin idea how long it was, or what it contained.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1306333954111401986

As thick as Raab is, he is just as dangerous when he speaks like this.

johnnyskeleton

VinLieger wrote: »

How ill informed are they that they thought that trip would go any other way? Especially with Dominic Raab in charge, a man who freely admitted he found reading the 40 pages of the GFA too much work

To be completely fair to the UK, he is probably the least incompetent member of their Government at the moment.

It's also possible that he made the schoolboy error of forgetting about the whole checks and balances thing of the US political system. He assumed that since Trump lives in his own reality and Brexiteers live in theirs, that everyone else must too!

Professor Moriarty

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be completely fair to the UK, he is probably the least incompetent member of their Government at the moment.

It's also possible that he made the schoolboy error of forgetting about the whole checks and balances thing of the US political system. He assumed that since Trump lives in his own reality and Brexiteers live in theirs, that everyone else must too!

You'd wonder. Are Johnson & Co betting on a Trump win.