Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

briany

Leroy42 wrote: »

They still believe that. I get the feeling that they were actually shocked with the reaction of the US to their proposal to rip up the WA.

I remember that, last year, members of the ERG met with a U.S. delegation led by Nancy Pelosi. Mark Francois, an arch Brexiteer, was reported to have been left 'even more red-faced' after Pelosi soundly reprimanded him for what she perceived as condescending remarks made. Suffice it to say that meetings with U.S. politicians, mainly those of the Democrat party, have not gone well, and that could prove to be massively problematic going forward, in terms of getting that trade deal the U.K. seems so desperately to want.

Tell me how

briany wrote: »

I remember that, last year, members of the ERG met with a U.S. delegation led by Nancy Pelosi. Mark Francois, an arch Brexiteer, was reported to have been left 'even more red-faced' after Pelosi soundly reprimanded him for what she perceived as condescending remarks made. Suffice it to say that meetings with U.S. politicians, mainly those of the Democrat party, have not gone well, and that could prove to be massively problematic going forward, in terms of getting that trade deal the U.K. seems so desperately to want.

The bit in bold is key.

Can you imagine what conservatives are saying to their UK counterparts in unpublished messages.

There is strong evidence in the papers again today of dubious Russian money in UK politics, it has been mentioned (once or twice) in relation to US politics.

I guarantee (in as much as I can) that if Trump wins, he will be much more receptive towards dealing with the UK irrespective of the Good Friday agreement than we have heard so far.

briany

Tell me how wrote: »

The bit in bold is key.

Can you imagine what conservatives are saying to their UK counterparts in unpublished messages.

There is strong evidence in the papers again today of dubious Russian money in UK politics, it has been mentioned (once or twice) in relation to US politics.

I guarantee (in as much as I can) that if Trump wins, he will be much more receptive towards dealing with the UK irrespective of the Good Friday agreement than we have heard so far.

Trump has no scruples about the thing whatsoever, but his ability to get a trade deal done rests upon the legislature as well. So, even if Biden doesn't win, Trump needs both houses, or enough Democrats to break ranks. I'd expect that in the event of a Trump win, Democrats would be very motivated to paralyse another Trump administration as much as they could.

Frank Bullitt

McGiver wrote: »

Latest Brendan O'Neil's intellectual vomit.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/17/its-time-for-ireland-to-grow-up/



Some of this are outright lies. This guy needs to head his head checked, if he really believes his pamphlets. If he doesn't then he's just a dirty extreme Tory propagandist. Nobody will ever agree with this nonsense in Ireland if this was meant for an Irish audience. How ironic he is of Irish descent apparently.

I am fully convinced now that O'Neil is a pisstaker at this stage. How anyone could write that and be serious is beyond me.

Strazdas

McGiver wrote: »

Latest Brendan O'Neil's intellectual vomit.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/17/its-time-for-ireland-to-grow-up/



Some of this are outright lies. This guy needs to head his head checked, if he really believes his pamphlets. If he doesn't then he's just a dirty extreme Tory propagandist. Nobody will ever agree with this nonsense in Ireland if this was meant for an Irish audience. How ironic he is of Irish descent apparently.

He totally misunderstands the dynamic between Ireland and the EU - or pretends to misunderstand. It was Ireland who started lobbying the EU in summer 2016 to make the Irish border a priority. This idiot is under the impression that it was the EU who came up with the idea of "weaponising" the border as a tactic.

Detritus70

Tell me how wrote: »

The bit in bold is key.

Can you imagine what conservatives are saying to their UK counterparts in unpublished messages.

There is strong evidence in the papers again today of dubious Russian money in UK politics, it has been mentioned (once or twice) in relation to US politics.

I guarantee (in as much as I can) that if Trump wins, he will be much more receptive towards dealing with the UK irrespective of the Good Friday agreement than we have heard so far.

We can be sure that Trump wants a deal with the UK. And you can be sure that this deal has one aim, to gut the UK like a Christmas turkey and he'll have absolutely no qualms about that.
Since the UK government seems to think like they still have an empire and all they have to do is throw their weight around, cajole, bully, belittle and threaten and they get what they want, we will have the pleasure of them being ripped to absolute shreds and i for one am not sorry about it.
Sometimes a child has to burn itself on the hot stove before they learn.

unit 1

J Mysterio wrote: »

He's of "Irish peasant stock".

Can't find the video of andrew maxwell taking him to task on a british morning tv show i think. I think this is where your getting the peasant stock thing, he fairly took him down a peg even though none of the others recognised it

10000maniacs

McGiver wrote: »

Latest Brendan O'Neil's intellectual vomit.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/17/its-time-for-ireland-to-grow-up/



Some of this are outright lies. This guy needs to head his head checked, if he really believes his pamphlets. If he doesn't then he's just a dirty extreme Tory propagandist. Nobody will ever agree with this nonsense in Ireland if this was meant for an Irish audience. How ironic he is of Irish descent apparently.

Breaking international law and putting the Good Friday Agreement back on the table as a bargaining chip in the negotiations with the EU is an absolute disgrace.
It's amazing how many of the UK populace have bought into this crap.
And then O'Neil peddling this rubbish to the Irish people as the counter argument. He thinks we are all idiots who will see his point of view.

Tell me how

Theresa May putting the boot in in no uncertain terms.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1308088770181369856

Expect they would have been much happier if she hadn't sought re-election after stepping down as PM.

fash

Gintonious wrote: »

I am fully convinced now that O'Neil is a pisstaker at this stage. How anyone could write that and be serious is beyond me.

Easy: he sold his soul. The only question is to whom.

fash

Strazdas wrote: »

He totally misunderstands the dynamic between Ireland and the EU - or pretends to misunderstand. It was Ireland who started lobbying the EU in summer 2016 to make the Irish border a priority. This idiot is under the impression that it was the EU who came up with the idea of "weaponising" the border as a tactic.

He doesn't care: it is just about amplifying UK prejudices

PropJoe10

Tell me how wrote: »

Theresa May putting the boot in in no uncertain terms.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1308088770181369856

Expect they would have been much happier if she hadn't sought re-election after stepping down as PM.

Theresa May is becoming the new Kenneth Clarke. Someone needs to ask these questions and I'm glad she's doing so.

Edit: She also said this today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SepA9uveBI8

Gintonious

Gintonious wrote: »

I am fully convinced now that O'Neil is a pisstaker at this stage. How anyone could write that and be serious is beyond me.

He is writing for a particular market.

It doesn't fit the narrative for that audience to consider Ireland as having agency, so it follows logically that we are being used by the EU.

The truth is that it classic case of accusing others of what you are trying to do yourself.

Lumen

Please do not dump tweets here.

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

He totally misunderstands the dynamic between Ireland and the EU - or pretends to misunderstand. It was Ireland who started lobbying the EU in summer 2016 to make the Irish border a priority. This idiot is under the impression that it was the EU who came up with the idea of "weaponising" the border as a tactic.

Wasn't it actually in 2014 when Enda Kenny started the conversations to ensure that the Border would be front and centre in the event of a "Leave" victory in the referendum.

The foresight of our diplomatic corps has proven just how right we were to go about things that we did.

Six years on and less than a year after an agreement they're back to weaponising the British border in Ireland.

There are some neat solutions to the (self-inflicted) Border problems, but not a wit amongst the British body-politick to actually do anything about it. Though that makes the assumption that they want to do do anything about it at all.

Professor Moriarty

fash wrote: »

Easy: he sold his soul. The only question is to whom.

The Koch family.

BonnieSituation

McGiver wrote: »

Latest Brendan O'Neil's intellectual vomit.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/17/its-time-for-ireland-to-grow-up/



Some of this are outright lies. This guy needs to head his head checked, if he really believes his pamphlets. If he doesn't then he's just a dirty extreme Tory propagandist. Nobody will ever agree with this nonsense in Ireland if this was meant for an Irish audience. How ironic he is of Irish descent apparently.

Some other crackers:

BON, Spiked wrote:

Such exploitation of smaller nations as part of a bigger imperial game is not new, of course.

BON, Spiked wrote:

The country which last year celebrated the hundredth anniversary of the First Dail – the parliament that sat between 1919 and 1921 in the revolutionary Irish Republic – is now happy to see itself used by foreign powers as a stick with which to beat democracy in its neighbouring nation. That’s a tragedy. Ireland needs to grow up and stand with Britain against the anti-democratic machinations of the new empires.

I mean, what can you actually do with such delusion?

---

I'm reminded of the time a couple of years back where, fully serious, Theresa May argued, in front of Leo Varadkar and Angela Merkel that "you can't just split a country in two!"

British delusion is a special kind of delusion.

briany

O'Neill's thing is that he is of Irish background, so he must have Ireland's best interests at heart. That is the shield he uses, so to speak.

BonnieSituation

briany wrote: »

O'Neill's thing is that he is of Irish background, so he must have Ireland's best interests at heart. That is the shield he uses, so to speak.

Oh absolutely. He of Peasant stock of course. I remember watching that clip from a couple of years back, with Andrew Maxwell and how he managed to come out with it while having a native Dub sitting beside him just blew me away.

Bigus

Here’s Brendan O’Neill, Andrew maxwell peasant stock video.

Important for this discussion to see how full of it Brendan is , I wish he’d change his name by deed poll to something more appropriate like Fontelroy the second.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1058342177607041024?lang=en

ancapailldorcha

Brendan O'Neill was part of the Living Marxism, a magazine which was relaunched as Spiked. LM tried to present the Bosnian massacre of Bosniaks at Srebrenica as fake news and was disbanded after a lawsuit from ITN.

Someone who is at the very least comfortable being part of such an organisation, if not actively involved which seems likely is someone I wouldn't be paying attention to or respecting.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brendan O'Neill was part of the Living Marxism, a magazine which was relaunched as Spiked. LM tried to present the Bosnian massacre of Bosniaks at Srebrenica as fake news and was disbanded after a lawsuit from ITN.

Someone who is at the very least comfortable being part of such an organisation, if not actively involved which seems likely is someone I wouldn't be paying attention to or respecting.

The problem is though, he and his ilk get airtime under the illusion of balance, so it's remiss of us not to highlight their nonsense as they will lead some people astray.

fash

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Wasn't it actually in 2014 when Enda Kenny started the conversations to ensure that the Border would be front and centre in the event of a "Leave" victory in the referendum.

The foresight of our diplomatic corps has proven just how right we were to go about things that we did.

Six years on and less than a year after an agreement they're back to weaponising the British border in Ireland.

There are some neat solutions to the (self-inflicted) Border problems, but not a wit amongst the British body-politick to actually do anything about it. Though that makes the assumption that they want to do do anything about it at all.

What they want is to weaponise it to gain concessions. It is interesting how it adds context to the Russian annexation of Crimea and Georgia.

briany

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The problem is though, he and his ilk get airtime under the illusion of balance, so it's remiss of us not to highlight their nonsense as they will lead some people astray.

This raises a really interesting point and a question I have - One I'm not sure there is a totally satisfactory answer to...

The likes of RTE and BBC, as mainstream media outlets, are coming under increasing criticism of pushing a certain narrative, but when they try to be balanced by having the likes of O'Neill on, they're also criticised for giving a platform to wingnuts.

So, how do they really be balanced if they don't also give voice to the extreme opinions that seem to be increasingly popping up. It seems a case of damned if you do and damned if you dont.

BonnieSituation

briany wrote: »

This raises a really interesting point and a question I have - One I'm not sure there is a totally satisfactory answer to...

The likes of RTE and BBC, as mainstream media outlets, are coming under increasing criticism of pushing a certain narrative, but when they try to be balanced by having the likes of O'Neill on, they're also criticised for giving a platform to wingnuts.

So, how do they really be balanced if they don't also give voice to the extreme opinions that seem to be increasingly popping up. It seems a case of damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Not quite.

Being balanced =/= giving a voice to wingnuts.

The BBC have fallen into the trap, and have long been in there, by equating balance and factual reportage with allowing the likes of BON a platform.

And it's because of the normalisation of this concept of balance, that they now have to keep giving them opportunities and the horrific cycle continues.

As I say above, as long as such grifters are on TV and writing articles, it's incumbent on us to point out their flaws.

briany

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Not quite.

Being balanced =/= giving a voice to wingnuts.

The BBC have fallen into the trap, and have long been in there, by equating balance and factual reportage with allowing the likes of BON a platform.

And it's because of the normalisation of this concept of balance, that they now have to keep giving them opportunities and the horrific cycle continues.

As I say above, as long as such grifters are on TV and writing articles, it's incumbent on us to point out their flaws.

If you don't give voice to wingnuts, then the wingnuts are free to claim that the main media outlets are not to be trusted as a reliable source of information, and they are gleefully pushing that idea in the shadows.

And if you do get them on, and you have experts on to refute their claims, they go playing the victim that it was hit piece, or that the moderator was siding against them.

View

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I think under a no deal Brexit EU fishing vessels wont be fishing in UK waters anymore. Irish water will end up becoming much more heavily fished and as a consequence and our own fishing industry will lose out.

There will be less fish available as the size of the fishing area will be reduced. Quotas will be cut. There will be a 400k ton hole in the number of fish caught

I posted the figures taken from UK and EU waters. Was asked for a source which I then provided.

(Legal) Fishing in EU waters are decided by quotas. That applies to Irish waters also.

Hence, as the total quota for Irish waters will remain the same, our waters will be fished for the exact same quantity as now

(And, if you want to talk illegal fishing, fishermen have no more or less reason to fish illegally in our waters than they do to fish in those of post-transition period Brexit Britain)

J Mysterio

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Theresa May is becoming the new Kenneth Clarke. Someone needs to ask these questions and I'm glad she's doing so.

Edit: She also said this today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SepA9uveBI8

It is so unusual.

She really was one of the worst ever PMs. Ever. But now with Johnson, she seems like a paragon of virtue and sense, saying the things that need to be said. The comparison to Clarke is quite apt Bringing a sense of justice and decency. It's bizarre though. If anything it really amplifies the fact that the Tory party at large is just packed to the rafters with seedy yes men and career boot lickers.

Something that I like though is that she has stayed on and not just fecked off. So many former PMs just retire from public life once their premiership has ended, which is a shame really (oftentimes).

briany

J Mysterio wrote: »

It is so unusual.

She really was one of the worst ever PMs. Ever. But now with Johnson, she seems like a paragon of virtue and sense, saying the things that need to be said. The comparison to Clarke is quite apt Bringing a sense of justice and decency. It's bizarre though. If anything it really amplifies the fact that the Tory party at large is just packed to the rafters with seedy yes men and career boot lickers.

Something that I like though is that she has stayed on and not just fecked off. So many former PMs just retire from public life once their premiership has ended, which is a shame really (oftentimes).

You know things are bad when you'd take May back as PM in a heartbeat. How far the Tories have sunk.

J Mysterio

briany wrote: »

This raises a really interesting point and a question I have - One I'm not sure there is a totally satisfactory answer to...

The likes of RTE and BBC, as mainstream media outlets, are coming under increasing criticism of pushing a certain narrative, but when they try to be balanced by having the likes of O'Neill on, they're also criticised for giving a platform to wingnuts.

So, how do they really be balanced if they don't also give voice to the extreme opinions that seem to be increasingly popping up. It seems a case of damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Might as well have a bloody anarchist on. His views are in no way representative of any reasonable grouping in Ireland. Maybe a couple of hundred freaks aligned to Gemma O'Doherty etc. They are best ignored and/ or laughed at, not platformed. The glorious thing about his 'peasant stock' moment was he was actually sitting next to an Irish comedian - it could not be more appropriate.