Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

An Ciarraioch

Barnier didn't say anything new today, but Johnson has ended his faux strop, and resumed talks:

https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1318947258738638850

Sam Russell

The European Parliament have already made it clear the IM bill has to go before any deal gets ratified.

Barniers words may silken words do not change that.

johnnyskeleton

Lemming wrote: »

Another frequent abbreviation - for Lumen's educational benefit - alluding to notions of empire that one might lamentably find thrown out with gleeful abandon by Brexiteers is "EUSSR"

The USSR reconquered former Russian Empire territories, installed powerless local parliaments and transplanted Russian people and culture into those countries to ensure that there will always be separatist movements stubbornly tring to keep the union together.

A more apposite analogy, given what we see in NI and Scotland, is the UKSR

tanko

There will be a deal done, there's always a deal, it's inevitable i think.
The Brits can't afford a no deal, the Corona virus made sure of that.
No deal is better than a bad deal will end up as a bad deal is better than no deal for the Brits. The EU just need to keep the boot on their throat.
BRINO here we come.

Sam Russell

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The USSR reconquered former Russian Empire territories, installed powerless local parliaments and transplanted Russian people and culture into those countries to ensure that there will always be separatist movements stubbornly trying to keep the union together.

A more apposite analogy, given what we see in NI and Scotland, is the UKSR

I think they have their own moniker earned in India - the Raj.

In Ireland, they planted the country with protestant lackeys, dividing the country in grants of land, and met any opposition with brutal coercion, and suppression of the Catholic religion with penal laws. Education of Catholics was forbidden, ownership of land, livestock, in fact anything of value was forbidden.

Even the Russians in the USSR were hardly that brutal. (Well perhaps Stalin).

CelticRambler

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barnier didn't say anything new today, but Johnson has ended his faux strop, and resumed talks:

https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1318947258738638850

Point no.7: nothing is agreed until everything's agreed (where have I heard that before? :rolleyes: ) = no side deals.

BlitzKrieg

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barnier didn't say anything new today, but Johnson has ended his faux strop, and resumed talks:

https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1318947258738638850

Even more his comments to the eu parliament seems to indicate the UK has shown signs of folding

On level playing field

"The UK are willing to look at this demand, and they’re willing to move forward and shift in their way of looking at this. They’re willing to do things in a different way to what exists in current trade deals among other countries."

so according to Barnier the uk has indicated folding on level playing field

and on fishing

There will not be a trade deal without a fair solution for fishermen on both sides. There needs to be mutual access to waters and there needs to be a fair distribution of quotas for fishermen on both sides.

Thats pretty much what the EU has wanted from the get go, they've just had to deal with the UK refusing to put forward any terms and insisting on a blanket no access. So despite how some corners are selling it as the EU compromising and folding it reads like the UK has folded on a key issue for the EU and has been told its iconic policy goal of breixt is to be a martyr or no deal.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they have their own moniker earned in India - the Raj.

In Ireland, they planted the country with protestant lackeys, dividing the country in grants of land, and met any opposition with brutal coercion, and suppression of the Catholic religion with penal laws. Education of Catholics was forbidden, ownership of land, livestock, in fact anything of value was forbidden.

Even the Russians in the USSR were hardly that brutal. (Well perhaps Stalin).

You`ve posted some entertaining stuff today Sam but what has this particular post got to do with brexit?

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

You`ve posted some entertaining stuff today Sam but what has this particular post got to do with brexit?

Background as to why the British did not get the basic tenets of the EU, where the major diving forces behind the EU were peace and democracy, not trade.

BlitzKrieg

I took a more in depth look at Barnier's speech at the european parliament. It's kinda complicated to find, you got to go here: https://multimedia.europarl.europa.eu/en/european-council-15-16-october-2020_16605_pk?_package_detail_portlet_PackageDetailPortlet_selectedDate=21%2F10%2F2020, click on the video thats 33 minutes long then click the document icon to download the transcript.

It seems the UK has already started agreeing to level playing fields in a number of areas

"The UK has agreed
to a specific level playing field when it comes to that, in
particular when it comes to road transportation. The UK will
be participating in some important significant European
projects such as Horizon and Erasmus."

Thats from Barnier today. The EU has already agreed to a level playing field in road transport via Horizon and agreeing to Erasmus is education to an extent.

Both EU programs. Both basically EU law.

And yet twitter is full of people saying the EU blinked.

CrabRevolution

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Much of the discourse in 2016 on both sides reflected this. The remain campaign was organised around convincing people of the economic damage leaving would cause. Not once did they highlight precedents of Britain leading the club, the benefits of free movement or ways Britain could make the EU better.

Remain should be cited in future as how not to run a referendum campaign. Their almost apologetic "The EU is admittedly crap but we'll come to economic harm if we leave" effort just wasn't enough to compete with the brexiters promises of taking their rightful place as a world superpower with no downsides.

BluePlanet

If Barnier is the one flying to London and not they flying to EU, well that says is all really.

ancapailldorcha

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

And yet twitter is full of people saying the EU blinked.

Pretty much the ideal outcome within the realms of political possibility. Maintain as much of the UK's access to the single market as possible, compromising where necessary and if the Brexit enthusiasts think it's a win then that's fine by me.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Remain should be cited in future as how not to run a referendum campaign. Their almost apologetic "The EU is admittedly crap but we'll come to economic harm if we leave" effort just wasn't enough to compete with the brexiters promises of taking their rightful place as a world superpower with no downsides.

It was a Tory campaign run by Tories designed to win a referendum called to placate Tory hardliners by being as bland and inoffensive as possible so as to prevent any further schism in the party.

listermint

BluePlanet wrote: »

If Barnier is the one flying to London and not they flying to EU, well that says is all really.

Says what all ...

RobMc59

listermint wrote: »

Says what all ...

He`s also tweeted both parties need to compromise which strangely has`nt been mentioned here at all.

BlitzKrieg

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Remain should be cited in future as how not to run a referendum campaign. Their almost apologetic "The EU is admittedly crap but we'll come to economic harm if we leave" effort just wasn't enough to compete with the brexiters promises of taking their rightful place as a world superpower with no downsides.

IT was the same campaign Cameron ran twice already in the 2 previous referendums (AV referendum 2011 and Scotland independence) and won both times with, it's basically the political equivalent of the boy who cried wolf.

It was a campaign that like AV and scottish independence relied heavily on public apathy and a desire to preserve some aspect of the status quo

What people tend to miss about the brexit campaign was how simple it was on a grass roots level to counter the above, go into groups that are focused on something, be it an activity or a specific type of business or sport or hobby and throw out some simple statement of

Under Brexit this business/activity/hobby/sport will be better

or

because of EU this business/activity/hobby/sport is suffering

It turned so many of the debates over brexit into specific topics and got rid of the apathy that Cameron relied on previously.

I lost track of the arguments I got into with men in their 20's - 30's who spent all their time online gaming or posting memes who voted for Brexit to protect their games and memes from the evil EU.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

You`ve posted some entertaining stuff today Sam but what has this particular post got to do with brexit?

Entertainment?

That you cannot see the link is worrisome. That you ignore the lesson is unsurprising. That you see nothing wrong is typical.

enda1

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Snip
And yet twitter is full of people saying the EU blinked.

In reality it would be great if the Brits think that this is the EU blinking, that they’ve got one over the dastardly Europeans. The facts are what matters and we’d most all like this sorry affair concluded in a trade deal. If that means sucking our teeth as Johnson waves his miniature Union Jack flag then so be it.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

He`s also tweeted both parties need to compromise which strangely has`nt been mentioned here at all.

What compromises do you feel the EU should make to balance out all the compromises that the British have done this far?

Why must you repeat yourself?

An Ciarraioch

BluePlanet wrote: »

If Barnier is the one flying to London and not they flying to EU, well that says is all really.

He was due to fly to London this week anyway, Frost will go to Brussels the next, and so on every second turn.

Professor Moriarty

According to The Telegraph, there has been "Fundamental change in approach" by the EU and the EU is "ready to meet all the UK's conditions". So the EU have caved in. If you believe The Telegraph.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What compromises do you feel the EU should make to balance out all the compromises that the British have done this far?

Why must you repeat yourself?

I would gladly take a BRINO even though it would mean having to endure grandiloquent triumphalist posts which would undoubtedly result tbh..

paul71

RobMc59 wrote: »

I would gladly take a BRINO even though it would mean having to endure grandiloquent triumphalist posts which would undoubtedly result tbh..

Little to endure when you consider Ireland has had to endure the current home secretary saying that the treat to starve Ireland was an option to consider in negotiation.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

According to The Telegraph, there has been "Fundamental change in approach" by the EU and the EU is "ready to meet all the UK's conditions". So the EU have caved in. If you believe The Telegraph.

The Express has this headline:

"Brexit talks to RESTART: Boris accepts EU capitulation after Barnier humiliating defeat"

Fuascailteoir

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

According to The Telegraph, there has been "Fundamental change in approach" by the EU and the EU is "ready to meet all the UK's conditions". So the EU have caved in. If you believe The Telegraph.

The EU probably would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky German car manufacturers

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I would gladly take a BRINO even though it would mean having to endure grandiloquent triumphalist posts which would undoubtedly result tbh..

What's that got to do with the EU comprising as you keep saying they must?

listermint

Well evidently it's all just more smoke and mirrors ..The UK started with smoke and mirrors in 2015 they've spent 5 years of time doing the same thing . They assumed they'd get some cherry picking access to a market they desperately need. The whole global thing is a sham, it's nonsense. It's always ever been about cherry picking and writing their own rules in relation to continued money laundering via their off shore territories.

The deal they thought they got hasn't materialised so its back to smoke and mirrors again covering up them backing down on their rethoric .

A hilarious and very sad mess all off it. For nothing.

Sam Russell

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

The EU probably would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky German car manufacturers

What is it about German car manufacturers?

BMW and Mercedes make top end premium cars that sell to wealthy people - most are prestige cars that are owned by business for executives. If the full 10% tariff were applied, it will improve the residual values, only marginally increasing cost of ownership. In fact it would only increase the prestige of the marques.

Contrast that with the Astra made in Ellesmere Port, a car sold in a competitive cost driven market. The 10% tariff would kill it. The same goes for Nissan and their Qashkai. Honda are already going back to Japan.

Maybe it is the French cheese and wine crowd that have got Barnier on the run.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

According to The Telegraph, there has been "Fundamental change in approach" by the EU and the EU is "ready to meet all the UK's conditions". So the EU have caved in. If you believe The Telegraph.

Complete nonsense. Most EU analysts on Twitter say there was nothing new in Barnier's speech, not a word.

salonfire

Very badly played here by the EU and Barnier. Why the talk of compromising from both sides now, the optics look as if the EU buckled.

If he wanted to assume the spirit of compromise, it should have been made clearer from day 1. Horse trading is nothing new to the EU when deciding budgets, quotas, etc.

Thrashing out a deal with the UK should have been the same.