2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Leroy42

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Nonsense. They demonstrably could have handled it better, as is evidenced by other countries handling it better. By best they could, you mean to the limit of their personal abilities, then I could agree with you.

Clearly Trump has done a reasonable job given his complete lack of abilities.

Remember that 200k was the top-line number projected at the start, a number that Trump laughed at. There is little doubt that there will be more than that. There was an average of 1000 deaths a day in August, 30k people dead in none month!

Trump said he was going to MAGA, yet here you are comparing America to the worst performers across the world. So even on his top line claim he has failed miserably.

Have you had a chance to back up your claim that Covid is only 10k deaths and not the 180k yet?

salmocab

Jesus wept, the argument is now America aren’t doing a bad job because the death rate is comparable with other countries not doing a good job. Is this the Trump way? Lower the bar and claim victory when the lowered bar is reached.

threeball

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

According to data released by the CDC 94% of those people that are listed as covid deaths, died with a serious underlying condition so it's safe to say that they died with covid rather than from covid alone.

So how many Americans died as a direct result of covid? Around 10,000 but I'm sure people will claim if they died with covid then covid was the cause of death :rolleyes: .

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

You do realise that you can have a serious underlying condition and live a fruitful life years if not decades. Should people with severe asthma be written off as just a statistic that really would have died anyway, diabetes maybe or maybe just being plain old obese. Some people with cancer can live 20 or 30years without it ever affecting them but if they died of covid in your world view they were on the way out anyway.

namloc1980

greenfield21 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense, why don't you tell us about Spain and how effective their lockdown was in curtailing the virus?

Since their main lockdown and mask mandate became effective they currently have a 7-day deaths moving daily average of 22 in Spain. The 7 day moving daily average in the USA is 921. Adjusting for population size the Spanish number would be 154 - substantially lower than the US.

At the end of July those numbers were 2 (14 adjusted for population) for Spain and 1,154 for the US.

Spain has had a spike (especially in Catalonia) but that spike is still nowhere near as bad as the ongoing situation in the US. Not even close. As Joe Biden would say "come on, man"!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

hotmail.com

Tell me how wrote: »

You asked for policies, what do you think plans are?

So, you think the solution to the crime problems in America need a massive, dare I say it, socialist, actually, maybe even closer to a communist approach in order to resolve them.

Interesting concept. Do you think Trump is saving that for his 2nd term, or why didn't he do it over the last 4 years.

Trying to suss out Biden's policies and posters keep coming back to Trump.

It's pretty clear no one gives a toss about police brutality, the poverty in America, racism etc. They are just obsessed with Trump.

Because surely people should be especially critical of Biden as he is a prospective president. Americans don't need fancy speeches any more.

Leroy42

greenfield21 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense, why don't you tell us about Spain and how effective their lockdown was in curtailing the virus?

Because the virus had already got in by the time the real lockdown occurred. The US had extra warning. Trump was warning back in November but as late of January was telling everyone that China was doing a fantastic job and praising Xi for his handling of it. The US had previously had people inside China keeping an eye out for this type of event, which he shut down.

He then wasted weeks fighting with Cuomo, seemingly on the basis that it was only hitting NY because of Dems and that as it had not impacted Red states than everything would be fine. That went against every bit of evidence that was available. He sought to make it a stand off between himself and them, rather than looking to deal with the problem.

He told everyone that it would soon go away. And his actions show that he worked on that basis.

Tump had the time, and resources, to make sure that the US didn't have to suffer the same faith as those countries that did a poor job, He choose not to. As late as April he was demanding that churches reopen for Easter and he continued to claim that the economy was far more important.

Ther is no indication that the current death rate of 1k a day will be decling anytime soon. Each time aposter comes out with the comparison with other countries the numbers for America get worse. It was only a few weeks ago that the detahs per million were in the 4 hundreds, not its not the 500. Schools are reopening, college, sports are about to go back.

This is far from over and Trump is currently reducing the amount of testing so there is no reason to believe that they are any closer to containing this than they were 5 months ago.

Only a vaccine can save them now. I fully expect a vacine announcement in October, coupled with some vague plans of a roll out and availability. THis will be talked about until Noverber 4th, when it will all mysteriously hit a speed bump about a week after he wins the election

LessOutragePlz

Leroy42 wrote: »

Have you had a chance to back up your claim that Covid is only 10k deaths and not the 180k yet?

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

LessOutragePlz

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Nope, both France and the UK waited far too long to start a lockdown. The latter allowed public transport to fill even during their lockdown. Sweden went the route of letting the virus to do its thing. Hence their numbers being multiples higher than their neighbours. So the US is not in good company as a result.

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

I've provided evidence in the form of excess deaths. You've guessed everyone would be dead by now regardless. Which is a pretty silly leap in logic. I've got a serious chronic illness, I'm set to live for decades to come. If I got covid, you'd conclude my illness killed me...

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

Trying to suss out Biden's policies and posters keep coming back to Trump.

It's pretty clear no one gives a toss about police brutality, the poverty in America, racism etc. They are just obsessed with Trump.

Because surely people should be especially critical of Biden as he is a prospective president. Americans don't need fancy speeches any more.

You were asked for Bidens plans/policies and when they were posted you changed your tactic.

Are you not bothered that Trump doesn't have the very thing that you are demanding from Biden?

Eric Cartman

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

namloc1980

Co-morbidity is meaningless on it's own. Excess deaths above the expected number is the only accurate measure of the impact of Covid. Using co-morbidity is akin to saying to anyone who died of Covid but had diabetes or heart disease, tough shit. They wouldn't have died in the last few months but for Covid.

The CDC range for excess deaths above expected historic and analytical averages is 184k to 245k due to Covid https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard

Leroy42

That isn't evidence of what you think it is. That is only saying that they had other health issues, not that they would have died regardless.

And would they have died when they did? You do understand that there is a difference between dying now and saying at some point in the future?

You need to show that they would have died, when they died, even without Covid. That CDC report doesn't show that.

You have seen the report showing 200k+ additional deaths over the average, what do you attribute that to? Simply a poor year? The facts are completely against you, despite you clinging to anything to avoid seeing the reality that Trump has lead to such a terrible response.

ohnonotgmail

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

just because someone already has an illness does not mean they are due to to die of that illness any time soon. I have diabetes. There is no chance of me dying of diabetes any time soon. If i catch covid and die you would say i didn't die of covid because i already had diabetes. your argument is particularly stupid and it is worrying that you cannot see that.

Igotadose

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

So, following through on this line of 'reasoning', the US should make no effort to improve its response because that's just the way they are, and we should re-elect the #IMPOTUS because, well, there's nothing he can do, and after all he takes no responsibility and it is what it is? Heck, call off the election now. Or decide it in a steel-cage no-holds barred no disqualification match?

Chris_Heilong

Igotadose wrote: »

Murderer in Wisconsin was 17. His mother drove him to the protest so he could play cop, and while at it murder two people
Alt-right types with Proud in their names typically live in their basements or on the dole. Ammon Bundy, recently arrested, lives at home.

Who are Antifa, exactly? Have you got a link?

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

Igotadose

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

Sorry, I wasn't precise enough. Do they have a web site? Is there a membership drive happening anywhere? Or do they just exist in Fox news's mind (and yours, clearly)

ohnonotgmail

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

so the media are responsible and not the police and right wing terrorists shooting people that are responsible? an interesting perspective. and by interesting i mean stupid.

LessOutragePlz

Igotadose wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't precise enough. Do they have a web site? Is there a membership drive happening anywhere? Or do they just exist in Fox news's mind (and yours, clearly)

Yeah here's their website.

www.antifa.com

Leroy42

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

It is because of their leaders. Had Trump worn a mask from day 1 then there wouldn't be a debate. If Trump had taken into seriously rather than looking to pretend it wasn't happening it would have been much better.

Had Johnson grasped the nettle and ordered the lockdown rather than try to avoid making the decision it would have helped. Had Johnson fired Cummings for breaking the rules it would have made a difference.

It perfectly reasonable to say the their countries are different than others, but then they as leaders of those countries should be aware of that and know how to counteract it not increase it.

By extension you are really trying to argue that the leaders of US and UK are immaterial to the running of the country.

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You were asked for Bidens plans/policies and when they were posted you changed your tactic.

Are you not bothered that Trump doesn't have the very thing that you are demanding from Biden?

I asked for specific policies. I'm not clear on how Biden will address poverty, the main cause of crime.

ThunbergsAreGo

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is because of their leaders. Had Trump worn a mask from day 1 then there wouldn't be a debate. If Trump had taken into seriously rather than looking to pretend it wasn't happening it would have been much better.

Had Johnson grasped the nettle and ordered the lockdown rather than try to avoid making the decision it would have helped. Had Johnson fired Cummings for breaking the rules it would have made a difference.

It perfectly reasonable to say the their countries are different than others, but then they as leaders of those countries should be aware of that and know how to counteract it not increase it.

By extension you are really trying to argue that the leaders of US and UK are immaterial to the running of the country.

On Day 1 the Irish Government were discouraging the use of masks, as were the WHO

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

I asked for specific policies. I'm not clear on how Biden will address poverty, the main cause of crime.

Why demand Bidens but not care that Trump doesn't have any? How is Trump going to address poverty?

LessOutragePlz

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

It's a simple fact the underlying condition contributed to the death and therefore, covid alone did not kill them. So to say that covid was the cause of death is wrong and inaccurate.

The vast majority of those people would not be dead without covid. This is backed up by excess deaths. So concluding only 10,000 died from covid is a complete distortion of reality.

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why demand Bidens but not care that Trump doesn't have any? How is Trump going to address poverty?

Because we know he isn't and won't address it. He didn't address it in the last 4 years.

Biden is ahead in the polls. Critical thinkers should be examining his policies. It's fairly straight forward.

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

Because we know he isn't and won't address it. He didn't address it in the last 4 years.

Biden is ahead in the polls. Critical thinkers should be examining his policies. It's fairly straight forward.

You're not getting it.

You're demanding Bidens policied (which were shown to you earlier) yet refuse to acknowledge the fact that Trump has none!

Why should people vote for Trump if his only policy is MAGA!

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You're not getting it.

You're demanding Bidens policied (which were shown to you earlier) yet refuse to acknowledge the fact that Trump has none!

Why should people vote for Trump if his only policy is MAGA!

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Quin_Dub

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

Anyone that died with Covid died because of Covid.

Regardless of whether someone had cancer or whatever , if they died even a minute earlier than they were expected to due to the Covid infection then IT WAS COVID THAT KILLED THEM.

Using your logic , If a terminally ill person was murdered in their home by a burglar , the burglar is not responsible because they were terminal anyway.

Penn

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Biden's policy on Coronavirus is "do something about it". That trumps Trump's "It is what it is" policy. So Biden wins that one at least, would you agree?

namloc1980

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Biden has actual policies for dealing with poverty. He even has plans for tackling rural poverty (which are overwhelmingly Republican areas) as they have been ignored by Republicans for decades. 85% of counties in the USA in persistent poverty are rural - most in the south and midwest Republican states. Ironically these people will vote overwhelmingly for Trump and he doesn't give a crap about them.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/county-typology-codes/descriptions-and-maps/#ppov



Persistent Poverty
Persistent poverty (353 total, 301 nonmetro) counties: 20 percent or more of residents were poor as measured by each of the 1980, 1990, 2000 censuses, and 2007-11 American Community Survey 5-year average.

namloc1980

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Anyone that died with Covid died because of Covid.

Regardless of whether someone had cancer or whatever , if they died even a minute earlier than they were expected to due to the Covid infection then IT WAS COVID THAT KILLED THEM.

Using your logic , If a terminally ill person was murdered in their home by a burglar , the burglar is not responsible because they were terminal anyway.

Pretty callous to write off people with underlying conditions as mere statistics that would die anyway. You'd think Trump supporters would be pro-life.