2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

mcmoustache

Overheal wrote: »

Europe and the US are very comparable by density and landmass yes. So why not compare them.

For one, we didn't have someone in authority telling us that this was just going to go away after a couple of cases.


We also weren't promised miracle cures by a top authority either.


Now that I think of it, I also don't recall anyone in authority encouraging lockdown protests here either. Sure, we had Gemma, but you can't really compare a US President to some incoherent contrarian.


I wonder if those actions would cause an increase or a decrease in the spread.

Kidchameleon

mcmoustache wrote: »

Now that I think of it, I also don't recall anyone in authority encouraging lockdown protests here either. Sure, we had Gemma, but you can't really compare a US President to some incoherent contrarian.

I wonder if those actions would cause an increase or a decrease in the spread.

Sweden fared much better than many European countries without a lock down.

timsey tiger

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Sweden fared much better than many European countries without a lock down.

You're point being?

mcmoustache

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Sweden fared much better than many European countries without a lock down.

True. But if I need a doctor in Sweden, I can go see one, whatever my income level.


The US has no such luxury. Do you think Trump encouraging those protests had a positive effect on how the US has handled this pandemic?

mcmoustache

timsey tiger wrote: »

You're point being?

That socialised healthcare is great. Probably.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't think it is wise to compare countries because of the multitude of details that can effect figures (density and landmass are only two factors, what about population age, education, tourism etc etc I could go on all night)

Here are some figures for deaths per 1 million population. Note that there are several European countries worse off than the US

San Marino: 1,238
Belgium: 850
UK: 683
Andorra: 673
Spain: 610
Italy: 582
Sweden: 570

USA: 486

Yep, they rank alongside the worst hit countries. But unlike most of them, the US numbers are still rapidly growing.

Kidchameleon

timsey tiger wrote: »

You're point being?

That lock down may not have been necessary. Especially when you consider the coming economic fallout and death toll from suicides, cancelled medical procedures etc as a result.. If we can compare countries then why does Sweden appear 7th in the list of European countries pertaining to deaths per 1 million population?

Kidchameleon

mcmoustache wrote: »

True. But if I need a doctor in Sweden, I can go see one, whatever my income level.


The US has no such luxury. Do you think Trump encouraging those protests had a positive effect on how the US has handled this pandemic?

So we should not compare countries without considering all of the variables, that is my point.

duploelabs

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That lock down may not have been necessary. Especially when you consider the coming economic fallout and death toll from suicides, cancelled medical procedures etc as a result.. If we can compare countries then why does Sweden appear 7th in the list of European countries pertaining to deaths per 1 million population?

That last figure I would say is because the treatment of the patients is very good, so although they have a lot of people infected, their health are system is adequate enough to treat them

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That lock down may not have been necessary. Especially when you consider the coming economic fallout and death toll from suicides, cancelled medical procedures etc as a result.. If we can compare countries then why does Sweden appear 7th in the list of European countries pertaining to deaths per 1 million population?

It's pretty clear why they're 7th, they also stated their policy was rather faulty. Their numbers are far greater than their neighbours so it is viewed as somewhat of an irresponsible policy.

Now which country is the fastest growing for deaths? The US... Your propaganda mode for Trump is not arguing a great case.

timsey tiger

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That lock down may not have been necessary. Especially when you consider the coming economic fallout and death toll from suicides, cancelled medical procedures etc as a result.. If we can compare countries then why does Sweden appear 7th in the list of European countries pertaining to deaths per 1 million population?

So Italy would have had a lot fewer deaths if they hadn't locked down, stupid Italians.

Kidchameleon

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep, they rank alongside the worst hit countries. But unlike most of them, the US numbers are still rapidly growing.

Indeed, numbers will grow in certain areas for a number of reasons, not necessarily due to mis management.

salmocab

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't think it is wise to compare countries because of the multitude of details that can effect figures (density and landmass are only two factors, what about population age, education, tourism etc etc I could go on all night)

Here are some figures for deaths per 1 million population. Note that there are several European countries worse off than the US

San Marino: 1,238
Belgium: 850
UK: 683
Andorra: 673
Spain: 610
Italy: 582
Sweden: 570

USA: 486

In fairness San Marino and Andorra are statistical anomaly’s. There are some countries worse off, I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise, also some countries are in different stages of this and it won’t be until the dust settles that direct comparisons can really be drawn and as most ‘western countries’ have a bit of a handle on this I’d think that America will not come out too far from the top of deaths per million table, Trump has been claiming they are doing great when the numbers show it to be quite the opposite. He’s either lying or is being fed bad information, neither should be acceptable in a leader.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

So we should not compare countries without considering all of the variables, that is my point.

Feel free to give some evidence that the the federal government has effective policy against the Coronavirus. Also worth remembering that they're currently banned from most of the EU. That's as a result of their disastrous policy.

Kidchameleon

Deleted User wrote: »

It's pretty clear why they're 7th, they also stated their policy was rather faulty. Their numbers are far greater than their neighbours so it is viewed as somewhat of an irresponsible policy.

Now which country is the fastest growing for deaths? The US... Your propaganda mode for Trump is not arguing a great case.

No need for this

timsey tiger

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Indeed, numbers will grow in certain areas for a number of reasons, not necessarily due to mis management.

Yea, but developed countries that reached the hockey stick later and still have bad numbers have no excuse. Inexcusable mismanagement.

Kidchameleon

salmocab wrote: »

In fairness San Marino and Andorra are statistical anomaly’s. There are some countries worse off, I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise, also some countries are in different stages of this and it won’t be until the dust settles that direct comparisons can really be drawn and as most ‘western countries’ have a bit of a handle on this I’d think that America will not come out too far from the top of deaths per million table, Trump has been claiming they are doing great when the numbers show it to be quite the opposite. He’s either lying or is being fed bad information, neither should be acceptable in a leader.

Indeed, might be another reason why from our vantage point, things seem worse in the US at the moment.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No need for this

I'll happily rescind it when you point to some proof of the effectiveness of their policy.

Kidchameleon

Deleted User wrote: »

Feel free to give some evidence that the the federal government has effective policy against the Coronavirus. Also worth remembering that they're currently banned from most of the EU. That's as a result of their disastrous policy.

As I have said earlier, there is only so much that can be done at a federal level. Some of the worst hit states are run by the democrats. New York being a prime example with Cuomo trying to block Trumps travel restrictions in March (linked earlier)

salmocab

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Indeed, might be another reason why from our vantage point, things seem worse in the US at the moment.

No the deaths per million can’t lower, they are behind most nations in getting a handle on this. Things don’t seem worse in the US they are worse.

duploelabs

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Indeed, numbers will grow in certain areas for a number of reasons, not necessarily due to mis management.

Just disproved your statement about New York (or other Dem areas) two posts above

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

As I have said earlier, there is only so much that can be done at a federal level. Some of the worst hit states are run by the democrats. New York being a prime example with Cuomo trying to block Trumps travel restrictions in March (linked earlier)

At the state level, Trump was encouraging states to open states early. He made masks into a culture war. He attacked the credibility of the likes of Fauci. He's also threatened federal funding for both testing and the reopening of schools cause he was annoyed by cdc guidelines. Is that effective leadership during a crisis. The federal response has generally been unchanged btw.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/08/coronavirus-trump-threatens-to-cut-school-funding-slams-cdc-reopening-guidelines.html


https://www.businessinsider.com/us-failed-coronavirus-response-reopening-exacerbated-first-wave-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

ohnonotgmail

Kidchameleon wrote: »

As I have said earlier, there is only so much that can be done at a federal level. Some of the worst hit states are run by the democrats. New York being a prime example with Cuomo trying to block Trumps travel restrictions in March (linked earlier)

that was true at one stage, which is why trump decided not to roll out a national testing program. but now the worst hit states are florida and texas which are very much red states at the moment. trump real loves the florida governor and thinks he is doing a great job. between those two states they had half of the deaths in the country yesterday.

Gruffalux

Why oh why oh why oh why do they have to pick this guy?

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1291060107611181058?s=19

Quin_Dub

Just on this issue of Covid Death rate

Looking here - It would seem that they have excluded anomolies like Andorra and San Marino as the populations are too small to measure in "deaths per million" in any meaningful way

In this list , the US is 8th in the list , however the critical data point is what the daily increase is.

So for example , Belgium listed in 1st place (worst right now) are currently running at ~2 news deaths per day , UK in 2nd are statistically at Zero new deaths daily.

Of the Top Ten only 3 are showing daily growth above 40 - The US at 1300 ,Brazil at 1100 per day and Peru at 196.

The US will continue to move up that league table for some time to come and based on current trends will be Number 1 in Deaths per million shortly after Election day - Which is somewhere around 275,000 Deaths.

The US and Brazil both had far greater advance warning of the severity of this pandemic than most countries in Europe and as such should have done much better than they did.

They did not, they did much much worse.

jamule

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Of course, I as a Trump supporter interpreted it differently than many of his opponents. I felt that Swan was not a great interviewer, he had very aggressive body language from the start. He kept banging on about the New York figures and comparing apples with oranges. New York cannot be compared to Japan or South Korea (like Swan was attempting). There are too many variables at play. I personally feel that whilst the pandemic is bad, it is not near as bad as it is being made out to be. Look at Sweden, they are doing great & so is their economy. People need to remember, President Trump has much more to worry about when it comes to lock downs, he has to factor in his economy. If you look at the deaths per million, he is not doing so bad.


There is only so much he can do at a federal level. Look at the states worst effected by the pandemic, many of the are run by democrats! When Trump tried to take action in March to help New York what did Cuomo do??


https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-filing-lawsuit-against-trump-administration-over-assault-new-york[/quote

you brushed over the interview fairly quickly. Any insight into why trump couldn't string a sentance or a coherant answer. is he that weak that an interview can bully him into falling to pieces.

Overheal

Gruffalox wrote: »

Why oh why oh why oh why do they have to pick this guy?

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1291060107611181058?s=19

Because he was the most well liked by America's primary voters, and he also happens to be exceptionally qualified.

ohnonotgmail

jamule wrote: »

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Of course, I as a Trump supporter interpreted it differently than many of his opponents. I felt that Swan was not a great interviewer, he had very aggressive body language from the start. He kept banging on about the New York figures and comparing apples with oranges. New York cannot be compared to Japan or South Korea (like Swan was attempting). There are too many variables at play. I personally feel that whilst the pandemic is bad, it is not near as bad as it is being made out to be. Look at Sweden, they are doing great & so is their economy. People need to remember, President Trump has much more to worry about when it comes to lock downs, he has to factor in his economy. If you look at the deaths per million, he is not doing so bad.


There is only so much he can do at a federal level. Look at the states worst effected by the pandemic, many of the are run by democrats! When Trump tried to take action in March to help New York what did Cuomo do??


https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-filing-lawsuit-against-trump-administration-over-assault-new-york

you brushed over the interview fairly quickly. Any insight into why trump couldn't string a sentance or a coherant answer. is he that weak that an interview can bully him into falling to pieces.

and it wasn't even a tough interview. it just seemed that way compared to the usual soft trump interviews.

Gruffalux

Overheal wrote: »

Because he was the most well liked by America's primary voters, and he also happens to be exceptionally qualified.

He is really terrible. It is unfortunate.

Overheal

Gruffalox wrote: »

He is really terrible. It is unfortunate.

Is that all you had to add?