2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Foxtrol

humberklog wrote: »

Just to say firstly that I'm far from a Trump supporter.

Trump was never going to debate Biden, the dogs on the street know this and the Dems should've known this. But Biben being a weak opponent isn't the problem. Biden is the wrong opponent and by saying that that doesn't mean I think Trump is a particularly strong opponent.

A person can be critical of two opposing teams.

I disagree on Biden. He is far from the perfect candidate but he is a good candidate against Trump. Trump, Rudy, GOP, Right Wing media have tried every trick to attack Biden and his family and have failed to make anything stick. It is obvious Trump wished he was running against Bernie, Warren, etc. The only tactic I saw from Trump last night was trying to get Biden to either associate himself with or attack the left of the party and Biden managed to say the right things to keep both sides happy.

TexasTornado

The debate crystalised all that is wrong in America and increasingly society worldwide in general. Division and willful ignorance.

Biden may win, Trump may win but unless people are prepered to open up and at least have the conversation about where we are headed then we will be back in the same spot in another 4 years.

Foxtrol

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's a bit mad, Joe Biden is asking people to for him as President, even though we all know he won't actually have much say if he gets in office. The decisions will be all made for him. They'll be electing the very shady inner workings of the democrat party and their vested interests.

Unlike Trump who in his first days of office removed the public disclosure of attendees to the Whitehouse, has given his biggest donors positions that are in complete conflict of interest with their personal businesses, and who has bent over backwards to accept lists of judges from right wing groups.

At least with Trump you know he is the leader.

He is seen as a leader by people who have never worked with a real leader and see power being a person who is loudest.

The party falls in line for what he wants.

He regularly doesn't know what he wants, which has lead to deadlock passing key things for the American people.

You won't be getting into any shady wars.

The guy bombed a general of another country. The only reason that didn't start a war was pure luck.

He won't sign up for shabby trade deals.

His trade deals have been little to no improvement on previous, while having Americans pay billions on tariffs, and the trade deficit has gotten worse.

Immigration will be limited.

This one is true and has made things a nightmare for Irish people there.

astrofool

eagle eye wrote: »

I agree, three draws is a win for Biden. He just needs to not lose ground to win.

All he had to do last night was turn up and be active, polls show him as ahead Trumps support isn't really shifting, and Trump played to his audience again, which is perfect for Biden. Of course the polling could be very wrong, but it's staying steady, is adjusted for the last election, and Trump is getting mired into more controversies, while Biden has none.

The proud boys remark is probably the stupidest thing said in any American presidential debate ever, it will be interesting to see how Trump sets a lower bar for next time.

DrumSteve

astrofool wrote: »

All he had to do last night was turn up and be active, polls show him as ahead Trumps support isn't really shifting, and Trump played to his audience again, which is perfect for Biden. Of course the polling could be very wrong, but it's staying steady, is adjusted for the last election, and Trump is getting mired into more controversies, while Biden has none.

The proud boys remark is probably the stupidest thing said in any American presidential debate ever, it will be interesting to see how Trump sets a lower bar for next time.

The bit people are forgetting is what he said directly after that, to effectively show up at the polls and keep an eye on things.

The guy is a scumbag of the highest order and a terrible, terrible person.

Timberrrrrrrr

eagle eye wrote: »

The VP candidate debates men nothing although it'll be interesting to see if Pence is willing to get down and dirty and drag up Harris' affair with Willie Brown.

And Harris cones right back with stormy daniels.

I think Pence will try avoid that being bought up.

Danzy

Better off going for her history as a Prosecutor and attorney general.

Lots of material there.

Foxtrol

Danzy wrote: »

Better off going for her history as a Prosecutor and attorney general.

Lots of material there.

That doesn't make much sense when they're spending so much time as painting Biden/Harris as weak on Law and Order.

It wouldn't surprise me if they went that direction because their conflicting messaging has been terrible all campaign. They are a month away from the election and have come up with nothing that sticks, everything is either bouncing off, conflicting, or is also a weakness for Trump.

duploelabs

Danzy wrote: »

Better off going for her history as a Prosecutor and attorney general.

Lots of material there.

Hard to do so and then say the GOP is the party of law and order

gmisk

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And Harris cones right back with stormy daniels.

I think Pence will try avoid that being bought up.

I don't think Pence would want to be in a room alone with a woman tbh....mother wouldn't like it!

I would predict Harris will be extremely strong in any debate. A debate between her and Pence might actually be semi polite

Penn

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think Pence would want to be in a room alone with a woman tbh....mother wouldn't like it!

I would predict Harris will be extremely strong in any debate

Yeah. In 2016 Pence only had to go up against Tim Kaine, someone so bland he's not allowed to be a picture in Guess Who. I think someone of Harris' ability, combined with the administration's record.... I think Pence is in for a rough time.

Deebles McBeebles

astrofool wrote: »

The proud boys remark is probably the stupidest thing said in any American presidential debate ever, it will be interesting to see how Trump sets a lower bar for next time.

Couldn't believe that. Yes, the shouting and bickering was embarrassing but that was another chance for him to disavow white supremacists and again, he didn't. Whole new level.

DrumSteve wrote: »

The bit people are forgetting is what he said directly after that, to effectively show up at the polls and keep an eye on things.

Yep, disgusting. Hopefully the undecided voters will remember that.

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

So he couldn't get the party of the 'left' in the US to support his policies but you believe there is widespread support for them?



There is no significant right wing party in Ireland but it doesn't stop the left calling FG it.

If you're calling the democrat supporters too far right then you're narrowing yourself to a tiny proportion of the population.



You're just on your high horse calling things that are life and death for people 'crumbs'.



I'm sorry if you're offended but the 'either get everything I want or I throw a tantrum' mindset is the definition of childishness.



The GOP's long game was to rig the system so they can win with less voters. Your long game is to allow the GOP more and more power to rig the system in a gamble that this group of voters want your model, despite there being no evidence of them on a national level electorally or in polling. It is pure fantasy that you're willing for others to hurt or die to test out.

Again utterly risible that you describe the centre right economically Democratic party as the party of the left. Maybe that is why your confused because you think the Democrats are a left wing party when they are centre right economically.


Agree with you there is no significant right wing party in Ireland thankfully. It is one of the benefits of having a PR system it makes it very difficult for extremist parties like the Republicans in the US to become powerful enough to form a government. I would say Fine Gael is a centre right party economically IMHO but no question they are not some far right extremist party.

The Democratic party has many supporters of different persuasions politically. No way can you paint their voters with one brush. The party itself though economically is centre right.

No worries not offended in the slightest by your insults. So continue to insult away not a bother to me. It is the kind of behaviour I expect from corporate Democrats when people dare to not vote for a party that does not care about the best economic interests of the vast majority of Americans.

Never gone horse riding myself personally. Simply pointing out the facts that the cooperate Democrats have no interest in legislating for the best economic interests of most Americans. All they care about are the wealthiest say top 20% or so. The last 40 years have made that very clear.


No question the Republican party over these past 40 years have abused the American system and lurched as a party further and further to the extreme right. To the point I would say that they are at best IMHO a semi-democratic party. But the Democrats have to look in the mirror too. They have long ignored local and state races to the extent now that most state legislatures and governors in the US are Republican controlled. The have also though nationally not done very much to make the economic lives of most Americans better and they are part and parcel of the corrupt system that keeps DC a duopoly on power in the US. This means when voters who do vote get ticked off with Democrats there is only one place for them to go. The reverse of course does apply.

Economically the Democrats have for the past 40 years legislated mostly for the benefit of the wealthy and helped maintain the corrupt system that has most of DC bought and paid for by the wealthy and major corporations. This time has seen income and wealth inequality spiral to rates not seen since the 19th century. The corporate Democrats vote again and again to increase the obscene defence budget rather then fund programmes that would help most Americans. As long as they continue along the line of being a corporate party then the US will continue to decline as it has done for decades now.

However a return to a more FDR style party and focusing on what genuinely is in most Americans best economic interests can not just be a winner at the ballot box but it is the right thing to do. Now no way things can all get turned around over night. But it can be done. To give an example that is current take the Democratic governor of Illinois Pritzker. Certainly no radical but he won against a Republican with one of his big campaign points being he would end the patently bad flat state tax in Illinois and replace it with a graduated tax that would significantly raise taxes on the wealthy. I guess they need a state constitutional amendment to make that happen and he followed through on his promise and it is on the ballot in Illinois and will go into effect January 1 if pasted which seems likely it will. The measure would see taxes for the wealthy increase a fair bit and either stay the same or decrease for most in Illinois Latest polls have support in the mid 60's range. This is the kind of bold legislating they clearly benefits the majority that Democrats should be moving towards and away from just doing the bidding of the wealthy and major corporations.

briany

How do you 'keep an eye on things' at a polling station? Surely they can't have members of the public skulking around inside livestreaming from their phones, screeching at the people staffing it?

Not much you can do outside except to try and intimidate and harass voters. Are the Proud Boys going to be there insisting on seeing voter ID 'just to check'?

One worry would be Trump mentallers who actually staff those places. I wonder what they'd be capable of doing?

tobefrank321

Trump's been bullying and shutting down everyone for years, using insults like crooked hillary, sleepy joe, or shutting down the media when they ask an awkward question.

So it was beautiful to see Biden tell him to shut up and name call him several times. No one deserved it more. Biden is more than a match for him and landed some nice ones like saying Trump wouldn't know a suburb if he took a wrong turn. It sums up the absolute sham of Trump pretending to be a man of the people. He truly despises most people and is despised in turn.

Cody montana

Person man yelling camera tv.

Cody montana

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Trump's been bullying and shutting down everyone for years, using insults like crooked hillary, sleepy joe, or shutting down the media when they ask an awkward question.

So it was beautiful to see Biden tell him to shut up and name call him several times. No one deserved it more. Biden is more than a match for him and landed some nice ones like saying Trump wouldn't know a suburb if he took a wrong turn. It sums up the absolute sham of Trump pretending to be a man of the people. He truly despises most people and is despised in turn.

He did the same at the Coronavirus briefing, never answered the questions, spewed a load of nonsense or just ignored the questions.

He's not a leader and takes no responsibility.

Danzy

duploelabs wrote: »

Hard to do so and then say the GOP is the party of law and order

Maybe but pointing out that Harris built her career on riding roughshod over young black men in California and now doe political gain is supporting bail campaigns for a movement of of largely rich white activist kids.

Foxtrol

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe but pointing out that Harris built her career on riding roughshod over young black men in California and now doe political gain is supporting bail campaigns for a movement of of largely rich white activist kids.

So he will be saying she has a history of being strong on law and order and will protect 'the suburbs'?

Leroy42

I found this tweet thread pretty interesting

Basically, behind all the noise and the disaster of a debate, there are clear differences in the aims of the two candidates, quite apart from their style.

https://twitter.com/NPRinskeep/status/1311331854444826628?s=19

Politico.com also had a good article explaining, in the authors opinion why Trump had no choice but to turn into a shouting playground fight. He has no policies and no plans and so simply cannot afford to let debate happen as it would expose that.

tobefrank321

There are absolutely clear differences between them which got lost in the noise.

Biden is for the Paris Accords, Trump against.
Biden believes in the science behind climate change, Trump doesn't believe it or else believes it but chooses to ignore it.
Biden is for a deal with Iran to stop them enriching uranium, Trump opposes it.
Biden is for Obamacare, Trump against.

There are numerous key differences and Biden is without question the more impressive person and would be a far better leader.

briany

Leroy42 wrote: »

I found this tweet thread pretty interesting

Basically, behind all the noise and the disaster of a debate, there are clear differences in the aims of the two candidates, quite apart from their style.

https://twitter.com/NPRinskeep/status/1311331854444826628?s=19

Politico.com also had a good article explaining, in the authors opinion why Trump had no choice but to turn into a shouting playground fight. He has no policies and no plans and so simply cannot afford to let debate happen as it would expose that.

Trump's response to criticism on his handling of COVID was just childish. Not childish for a politician, but just flat childish. Like, it's insane that this is comings out of the POTUS. Trump makes Homer Stokes look smooth.

Trump's retort was, "I did a better job than you would have!", with no qualifier of that. No how or why.

Let's be quite real here. Does anyone think that Trump would think it was a fair handling if it were a Dem president? The answer to that is: no.

duploelabs

briany wrote: »

Trump's response to criticism on his handling of COVID was just childish. Not childish for a politician, but just flat childish. Like, it's insane that this is comings out of the POTUS. Trump makes Homer Stokes look smooth.

Trump's retort was, "I did a better job than you would have!", with no qualifier of that. No how or why.

Let's be quite real here. Does anyone think that Trump would think it was a fair handling if it were a Dem president? The answer to that is: no.

Given the level of discourse exhibited here by the trumpettes, Trump's level of debate akin to 'I know I am but what about you' is what makes them think that he won the debate

namloc1980

Latest Rasmussen Poll has Biden +8 over Trump. They are notoriously Republican leaning and had Trump level with Biden a few weeks ago! Not a good sign for Trump at all. https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2020/white_house_watch_sep30

dark crystal

briany wrote: »

Trump's response to criticism on his handling of COVID was just childish. Not childish for a politician, but just flat childish. Like, it's insane that this is comings out of the POTUS. Trump makes Homer Stokes look smooth.

Trump's retort was, "I did a better job than you would have!", with no qualifier of that. No how or why.

Let's be quite real here. Does anyone think that Trump would think it was a fair handling if it were a Dem president? The answer to that is: no.

Donald Trump is not fit for the job. Period.

He calls Biden 'not smart' and mocks his education, yet according to his own family, he paid someone to take his college entrance exams for him.

He hasn't got the temperament, the intelligence, the experience to be President. He's corrupt. He's not capable of listening.

Listen to what a former WH chief of Staff talks about here...many of his own staff didn't believe he had the mental acuity to do his job:

https://twitter.com/TomthunkitsMind/status/1311140501777776640

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

The VP candidate debates men nothing although it'll be interesting to see if Pence is willing to get down and dirty and drag up Harris' affair with Willie Brown.

Except it wasn't an affair...

MeMen2_MoRi_

Which one looks smart and has proof that they are smart..

https://preview.redd.it/wh164j8dva851.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&0cf3ddb9

PropJoe10

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There are absolutely clear differences between them which got lost in the noise.

Biden is for the Paris Accords, Trump against.
Biden believes in the science behind climate change, Trump doesn't believe it or else believes it but chooses to ignore it.
Biden is for a deal with Iran to stop them enriching uranium, Trump opposes it.
Biden is for Obamacare, Trump against.

There are numerous key differences and Biden is without question the more impressive person and would be a far better leader.

I think aside from those policy differences, which are totally fair - the main reason why it's vital that Biden wins is that the country needs to start to be brought back together. The only thing that Trump has done is sow division and discord and debase the office of President. Biden is by no means anywhere near a perfect candidate but at least he's capable of standing up and making a unifying, compassionate speech.


That concept is totally alien to Trump. He is not capable of that. People can go on about Biden's long career and his stumbles and mis-statements but the fact is, that country has NEVER been as divided or volatile as it is right now. This is Trump's America and it's a dark, dark place.

sdanseo

Well, that was a shambles.

I think to analyze who "won" (using the term as loosely as possible), you need to look at the potential swing of American moderates rather than gazing at it from an Irish point of view.

There are deep divisions in the states, the country is probably as polarized as it has been since the 60's if not the Civil War - which was mostly fought over slavery.
It's the guys on the fence who will decide the outcome.
Quick aside, to prove nothing will sway the already decided: I am in a discord with a good few Americans most of whom are Trump supporters. For them, last night he knocked it out of the park. If you listened to them he disassembled the man faster than an AR15 would mow down a row of field mice.
The few dissenters are typically far on the other side of the divide, of the sort that would love to make nonbinary toilets a legal requirement and replace food stamps with sex change vouchers.
Polarized isn't even a strong enough word.

There are a few things which team red and team blue voters do have in common. They are considerably more nationalist than the Irish, would both have an overall more draconian, even Darwinist view of crime and punishment, are more insular and typically less aware of foreign matters than citizens of some other countries. They both consider freedoms and liberties enshrined in the constitution to be vitally important, but choose to interpret them in different ways. And all of America is a very individualistic society tending towards a focus on the strength of a character rather than the strength of the policy behind them.

Trump made some grievous errors that will upset a lot of these swing voters.
He failed to condemn white supremacists.
He may have called them to arms, although as unpopular an admission as it might be I suspect that may genuinely have been an exceptionally poor choice of words over egging on a revolution. But perhaps not.
He criticised two veterans including one who is both dead and decorated - possibly the worst sin of them all in terms of the number of people he could offend in one go. And the word "loser" isn't even a calculated or meaningful criticism, it's pure and simple bullying.
Moderate Americans will not like these things and it will boil the blood of many of them.

Biden did himself few favours.
He came across frail and toothless. Americans like strong Presidents. Biden looked like any half decent breath of wind would topple him.
Repeated himself frequently, especially the phrase "Here's the deal".
Address Trump first by his name, not title; then as a clown, then told him to shut up. Think Band of Brothers - salute the officer not the man. Moderates will expect a certain decorum.

Of course the icing on the decorum cake is Trump's behaviour. He acted like a spoilt brat, refusing to stop talking and deliberately arguing with Wallace and interrupting Joe to rattle him and prevent him from making his points. It wasn't bluster and arrogance, it was exponentially worse, it was calculated manipulative, arrogant, morally bankrupt aresehattery of a magnitude designed to prevent the opponent from being able to speak; and that is going to be his downfall.

Overall not surprised to see Biden taking a hefty lead.
On balance, he offended less moderates but neither man earned new votes.

The whole thing made me want to grab a bottle of something golden brown and neck it while watching Reagan or Kennedy orate gracefully on repeat; to drown out all the absurdity.

/rant

eire4

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I think aside from those policy differences, which are totally fair - the main reason why it's vital that Biden wins is that the country needs to start to be brought back together. The only thing that Trump has done is sow division and discord and debase the office of President. Biden is by no means anywhere near a perfect candidate but at least he's capable of standing up and making a unifying, compassionate speech.


That concept is totally alien to Trump. He is not capable of that. People can go on about Biden's long career and his stumbles and mis-statements but the fact is, that country has NEVER been as divided or volatile as it is right now. This is Trump's America and it's a dark, dark place.

I get where your coming from but I cannot agree in terms of the president. IMHO getting rid of him is not the cure in terms of the Republican party because he is just a symptom of the disease that that party has become not the actual disease itself. Get rid of him and the public vulgarity will be gone to a large extent yes but the Republican party will still be the same utterly corrupt party they are. Getting rid of the president will not change who the Republican party are. I would also say in the actual civil war they clearly were more divided then now but no question the US has declined significantly in recent decades and especially since the turn of the century.