2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Quin_Dub

duploelabs wrote: »

The two bolded parts. Where does it show that Trump is worth 4 billion (the forbes figures are supplied by trump himself so we can exclude that or any source referencing it)?

Trump did not put his business in a blind trust as every president has before him

The only verifiable data we have about Trump are his bankruptcies and the few pages of tax returns that came out.

All that data shows him losing money hand over fist.

We also have the data from his Doonbeg and Scottish resorts due to the local reporting laws in Ireland/UK.

They also show him losing money year in year out.

He got over 400 Million dollars from his fathers dodgy Tax schemes and there is no evidence to show that he has turned a profit since then.

He has high annual turnover , but his debt/income ratio would suggest that he loses money every year and is kept afloat by banks repeatedly extending his credit in the hopes of getting their investment back.

Leroy42

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can see the contents of the test Trump took?

Not until we know if he actually took one in the first place. There seems to be an acceptance that he did, but based on what?

We all know we can't believe anything Trump says, so has he released the test results?

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not until we know if he actually took one in the first place. There seems to be an acceptance that he did, but based on what.

We all know we can't believe anything Trump says, so has he realised the test results?

he says he "aced" it so that should be good enough. What is the world coming to when they think that the President of the United States would lie so blatantly.

duploelabs

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The only verifiable data we have about Trump are his bankruptcies and the few pages of tax returns that came out.

All that data shows him losing money hand over fist.

We also have the data from his Doonbeg and Scottish resorts due to the local reporting laws in Ireland/UK.

They also show him losing money year in year out.

He got over 400 Million dollars from his fathers dodgy Tax schemes and there is no evidence to show that he has turned a profit since then.

He has high annual turnover , but his debt/income ratio would suggest that he loses money every year and is kept afloat by banks repeatedly extending his credit in the hopes of getting their investment back.

Oh I'm well aware of that, I would like to see Sean's counterclaim backed up, but given the amount of times they've dodged those types of challenges I don't think they've the won tons to back up their proclamations

Overheal

duploelabs wrote: »

Oh I'm well aware of that, I would like to see Sean's counterclaim backed up, but given the amount of times they've dodged those types of challenges I don't think they've the won tons to back up their proclamations

Just another pigeon style poster: **** then fly away.

Sean.3516

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well that part in bold is a lie. there is no requirement to repeat the words in order as part of the MOCA test.

You're right. You just have to say the words. They don't need to be in order.

I didn't lie. I made a mistake. Okay?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and the representative words he chose were completely bogus.

What do you mean they were bogus? It was January 2018 when he took the test so I think he can be forgiven for not using the exact words from the test he took so he went with some random words that popped into his head.

Yeah, towards the end he put in some obligatory Trump bs like the stuff about "extra points" and how "nobody gets it in order." We know he passed it. The White House physician said so in his report https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html

The White House physician is a military physician, not some personal appointee, so you can't just say "oh Trump had his personal doctor give him a perfect score."

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

You're right. You just have to say the words. They don't need to be in order.

I didn't lie. I made a mistake. Okay?


What do you mean they were bogus? It was January 2018 when he took the test so I think he can be forgiven for not using the exact words from the test he took so he went with some random words that popped into his head.

Yeah, towards the end he put in some obligatory Trump bs like the stuff about "extra points" and how "nobody gets it in order." We know he passed it. The White House physician said so in his report https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html

The White House physician is a military physician, not some personal appointee, so you can't just say "oh Trump had his personal doctor give him a perfect score."

The "White House Physician" in question here would be Ronnie Jackson.

Ronnie Jackson who was fired for handing out medication without Prescription and doing it so pervasively that his nickname was "The Candy Man".

Ronnie Jackson who said “I told the president if he had eaten healthier over the last 25 years, he might live to be 200.”

Ronnie Jackson who Trump later tried to install as head of the Veterans Association despite being utterly unqualified for the role.

Ronnie Jackson who recently won a Texas primary for election to Congress representing the GOP.


What was it again that we weren't allowed to suggest about the veracity of the test results???

Leroy42

Sean.3516 wrote: »

You're right. You just have to say the words. They don't need to be in order.

I didn't lie. I made a mistake. Okay?


What do you mean they were bogus? It was January 2018 when he took the test so I think he can be forgiven for not using the exact words from the test he took so he went with some random words that popped into his head.

Yeah, towards the end he put in some obligatory Trump bs like the stuff about "extra points" and how "nobody gets it in order." We know he passed it. The White House physician said so in his report https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html

The White House physician is a military physician, not some personal appointee, so you can't just say "oh Trump had his personal doctor give him a perfect score."

So you saw the score? Great. Can you provide a link?

2018? So he was asked by Doctors in 2018 ti take a test. Why? And surely he should take another one now?

ohnonotgmail

Sean.3516 wrote: »

You're right. You just have to say the words. They don't need to be in order.

I didn't lie. I made a mistake. Okay?


What do you mean they were bogus? It was January 2018 when he took the test so I think he can be forgiven for not using the exact words from the test he took so he went with some random words that popped into his head.

Yeah, towards the end he put in some obligatory Trump bs like the stuff about "extra points" and how "nobody gets it in order." We know he passed it. The White House physician said so in his report https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html

The White House physician is a military physician, not some personal appointee, so you can't just say "oh Trump had his personal doctor give him a perfect score."

trump lied. trump said they had to be in order. and why did he even take the test? there is no need for him to take the test if there were no doubts about his cognitive ability.

Sean.3516

duploelabs wrote: »

Where does it show that Trump is worth 4 billion (the forbes figures are supplied by trump himself so we can exclude that or any source referencing it)?

I don't understand why everyone is desperate to be sure Trump's net worth is accurate. Forbes' latest estimates are substantially lower. 2 billion.

Even if it was only one billion, my point still stands that being an anyway successful businessman requires at least average or slightly above intelligence and therefore the critique of Trump that he is "not intelligent in any measurable way" as one poster said makes no sense.

duploelabs wrote: »

Trump did not put his business in a blind trust as every president has before him

Not every president has put their assets into a blind trust. The Obamas didn't bother. But then, their assets were nowhere near as complex or as far reaching as Trump's.

I believe Trump's people said in 2017 that a truly blind trust is impossible if the business is still operating. There was no way the Trump Organisation was going to cease all of its operations for the duration of Trump's presidency.

That said Trump did takes steps to mitigate conflicts of interest even though he had no obligation to. (Conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.) He liquidated all his publicly traded assets and investments. No new foreign deals were conducted and the ones at home were subject to vetting. Trump only had access to information regarding the Organisation's profits as a whole. No information about particular businesses.

Sean.3516

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you saw the score? Great. Can you provide a link?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html

Leroy42 wrote: »

2018? So he was asked by Doctors in 2018 ti take a test. Why? And surely he should take another one now?

He wasn't asked to take the test. He didn't have to.

He asked his physician to give him some sort of cognitive test because he wanted to debunk claims he was mentally unfit. In 2018, this was the standard line of attack on Trump, that he was mentally unfit.

Sean.3516

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

trump lied. trump said they had to be in order. and why did he even take the test? there is no need for him to take the test if there were no doubts about his cognitive ability.

He volunteered to take it.

duploelabs

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone is desperate to be sure Trump's net worth is accurate. Forbes' latest estimates are substantially lower. 2 billion.

Even if it was only one billion, my point still stands that being an anyway successful businessman requires at least average or slightly above intelligence and therefore the critique of Trump that he is "not intelligent in any measurable way" as one poster said makes no sense.


Not every president has put their assets into a blind trust. The Obamas didn't bother. But then, their assets were nowhere near as complex or as far reaching as Trump's.

I believe Trump's people said in 2017 that a truly blind trust is impossible if the business is still operating. There was no way the Trump Organisation was going to cease all of its operations for the duration of Trump's presidency.

That said Trump did takes steps to mitigate conflicts of interest even though he had no obligation to. (Conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.) He liquidated all his publicly traded assets and investments. No new foreign deals were conducted and the ones at home were subject to vetting. Trump only had access to information regarding the Organisation's profits as a whole. No information about particular businesses.

1st point. You claimed trump is worth 4 billion, now you're saying that forbes (who publish user supplied figures, not independently sourced) say he's 2 billion. You need to spoof better
2nd point. Trump definitely did not mitagate conflicts. In fact, he actively told foreign dignitaries to stay at his hotels, he had secret service stay in his hotels at a much greater cost than when normal punters are charged. He attempted to move the FBI headquarters adjacent to a trump hotel (which had no competition nearby), he got the British ambassador to attempt to move the British open golf championship to one of his courses. Of course I could go on and I'm sure other may want to add to this list.

So stop with the steaming piles of proclamations you spray out unless you're going to back them up with some reputable sources

ohnonotgmail

Sean.3516 wrote: »

He volunteered to take it.

why would it even come up? how would trump even know such a test exists? the whole backstory is bollix but unfortunately there are some who will swallow anything trump says.

ohnonotgmail

Sean.3516 wrote: »

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/trump-health-exam-doctor-cognitive-test.html


He wasn't asked to take the test. He didn't have to.

He asked his physician to give him some sort of cognitive test because he wanted to debunk claims he was mentally unfit. In 2018, this was the standard line of attack on Trump, that he was mentally unfit.

he was certainly attacked for being intellectually unfit and his comments about the test show that there a definite basis for those attacks.

Doctor Jimbob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone is desperate to be sure Trump's net worth is accurate. Forbes' latest estimates are substantially lower. 2 billion.

Even if it was only one billion, my point still stands that being an anyway successful businessman requires at least average or slightly above intelligence and therefore the critique of Trump that he is "not intelligent in any measurable way" as one poster said makes no sense.

He isn't a successful businessman. He's a spoofer who would have achieved nothing in life without daddy's money. Have a look at the documentaries on Fyre festival from a couple of years ago to see how far spoofers can get with a bit of cash backing them. Trump is cut from the same cloth.

duploelabs

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

He isn't a successful businessman. He's a spoofer who would have achieved nothing in life without daddy's money. Have a look at the documentaries on Fyre festival from a couple of years ago to see how far spoofers can get with a bit of cash backing them. Trump is cut from the same cloth.

Or just watch Dirty Money or Trump : The American dream both on Netflix to get it from the horses mouth

Sean.3516

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone is desperate to be sure Trump's net worth is accurate. Forbes' latest estimates are substantially lower. 2 billion.

Even if it was only one billion, my point still stands that being an anyway successful businessman requires at least average or slightly above intelligence and therefore the critique of Trump that he is "not intelligent in any measurable way" as one poster said makes no sense.


Not every president has put their assets into a blind trust. The Obamas didn't bother. But then, their assets were nowhere near as complex or as far reaching as Trump's.

I believe Trump's people said in 2017 that a truly blind trust is impossible if the business is still operating. There was no way the Trump Organisation was going to cease all of its operations for the duration of Trump's presidency.

That said Trump did takes steps to mitigate conflicts of interest even though he had no obligation to. (Conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.) He liquidated all his publicly traded assets and investments. No new foreign deals were conducted and the ones at home were subject to vetting. Trump only had access to information regarding the Organisation's profits as a whole. No information about particular businesses.

Well, given the amount he was handed. He would be better off if he left the money in a bank out...

Sean.3516

duploelabs wrote: »

1st point. You claimed trump is worth 4 billion, now you're saying that forbes (who publish user supplied figures, not independently sourced) say he's 2 billion.

I didn't say it was 4 billion, I said he was 4 billion (it's declined since) my point being that it speaks highly of Trump's intellect that he managed to grow his net worth from a few million in loans and gifts from his father into that amount. Especially since the vast majority of family fortunes on planet Earth are squandered by the children within a generation or so.

Forbes put him at 4.1 billion in 2015. Now, that was at the same time Trump himself was claiming to be worth 9 billion. I don't know how Forbes calculates his net worth and frankly I don't care. You're the one who keeps going on about it.

As of April, 2020, Forbes put him at 2.1 billion.

duploelabs wrote: »

2nd point. Trump definitely did not mitagate conflicts. In fact, he actively told foreign dignitaries to stay at his hotels, he had secret service stay in his hotels at a much greater cost than when normal punters are charged. He attempted to move the FBI headquarters adjacent to a trump hotel (which had no competition nearby), he got the British ambassador to attempt to move the British open golf championship to one of his courses. Of course I could go on and I'm sure other may want to add to this list.

Who cares? All this proves to me is that he's the same ostentatious blowhard we all knew he was. Is all that stuff yucky? Sure. Does it compromise his ability to be president. Nope. Sorry but it doesn't.

He took pretty reasonable steps in 2017 to mitigate conflicts when he didn't have to. You can never mitigate every conflict of interest, especially in Trump's case (which is why conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.)

Again, his net worth has decreased since he became president.

Sean.3516

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

He isn't a successful businessman. He's a spoofer who would have achieved nothing in life without daddy's money. Have a look at the documentaries on Fyre festival from a couple of years ago to see how far spoofers can get with a bit of cash backing them. Trump is cut from the same cloth.

He started out with something around 5 million and peaked at 4 billion and is currently at 2 billion.

I'd call that success regardless of whatever help he had.

Sean.3516

Sean.3516 wrote: »

He started out with something around 5 million and peaked at 4 billion and is currently at 2 billion.

I'd call that success regardless of whatever help he had.

Nope, he started out with a lot more than that. And plenty of banks won't even loan him money any more...


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/trumps-small-loan-from-his-father-was-more-like-60point7-million-nyt.html

duploelabs

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I didn't say it was 4 billion, I said he was 4 billion (it's declined since) my point being that it speaks highly of Trump's intellect that he managed to grow his net worth from a few million in loans and gifts from his father into that amount. Especially since the vast majority of family fortunes on planet Earth are squandered by the children within a generation or so.

Forbes put him at 4.1 billion in 2015. Now, that was at the same time Trump himself was claiming to be worth 9 billion. I don't know how Forbes calculates his net worth and frankly I don't care. You're the one who keeps going on about it.

As of April, 2020, Forbes put him at 2.1 billion.


Who cares? All this proves to me is that he's the same ostentatious blowhard we all knew he was. Is all that stuff yucky? Sure. Does it compromise his ability to be president. Nope. Sorry but it doesn't.

He took pretty reasonable steps in 2017 to mitigate conflicts when he didn't have to. You can never mitigate every conflict of interest, especially in Trump's case (which is why conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.)

Again, his net worth has decreased since he became president.

Again, please provide citation for these claims, and again Trump gives those figures to forbes forbes doesn't estimate

briany

Sean.3516 wrote: »

He started out with something around 5 million and peaked at 4 billion and is currently at 2 billion.

I'd call that success regardless of whatever help he had.

You do have to give it to Trump in that regard, because it's perfectly possible to get an inheritance of a few million dollars and utterly blow through it with a string of bad investments and frivolous spending. So it has to be said that he's had some nous in his original line of work, even if some of that nous was just being savvy to the phrase, "When you owe the bank a thousand, it's your problem. When you owe them 10 million, it's their problem."

However, his skills in business, such as they are, have not proven themselves transferable to the presidency. He appears to be a man utterly uninterested in real politics and the nuances of political decision-making, and the main appeal of the job is not really to make America a better place to live, but to feed his ego which, even for someone holding major political office, is huge.

Sonics2k

Sean.3516 wrote: »

He started out with something around 5 million and peaked at 4 billion and is currently at 2 billion.

I'd call that success regardless of whatever help he had.

I think you're missing some real key factors to Trumps money making. He received astonishing amounts of help from his father, and due to his family name and their influence he was able to get dozens of banks and investors to help fund his various projects.

Trump has been successful at setting up various businesses, which again, due to the name and marketing tend to do very well for a short amount of time, and he runs them at a low cost to increase the company profit. The problem is that in the longer term all his bigger businesses end up failing.

Forbes would have estimated his net worth based on all the businesses he was running, projected incomes etc.

For example, John and Patrick Collison are two Irish billionaires (estimated at $3.2 billion, and founders of Stripe. A large chunk of their actual money is "projected" wealth, and due to various investors in the company who've helped to increase the net value of it. Of course, they and Trump are extremely wealthy, but Trump isn't wealthy due to his own genius at business, rather his investors, the numerous banks which frequently bail him out, loans and so on.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I didn't say it was 4 billion, I said he was 4 billion (it's declined since) my point being that it speaks highly of Trump's intellect that he managed to grow his net worth from a few million in loans and gifts from his father into that amount. Especially since the vast majority of family fortunes on planet Earth are squandered by the children within a generation or so.

Forbes put him at 4.1 billion in 2015. Now, that was at the same time Trump himself was claiming to be worth 9 billion. I don't know how Forbes calculates his net worth and frankly I don't care. You're the one who keeps going on about it.

As of April, 2020, Forbes put him at 2.1 billion.


Who cares? All this proves to me is that he's the same ostentatious blowhard we all knew he was. Is all that stuff yucky? Sure. Does it compromise his ability to be president. Nope. Sorry but it doesn't.

He took pretty reasonable steps in 2017 to mitigate conflicts when he didn't have to. You can never mitigate every conflict of interest, especially in Trump's case (which is why conflict of interest laws don't apply to the president.)

Again, his net worth has decreased since he became president.

The point being made is that he hasn't "Grown his net worth from a few million in loans and gifts" - He got the thick end of a half a billion dollars through his fathers tax avoidance shell game and there is not a single iota of evidence to prove that he has ever turned a profit since.

The reason the Forbes data has narrowed from ~$4B to ~$2B since he became President is not because Trump has lost money that he had before , it's because as President he has to release a little bit more information under WH rules than he did before.

Previously Forbes would use the public data that Trump himself provided , which are not vetted or legally binding - the "accounts" he submitted are simply a statement from an accountant that says "Donald Trump told me he's worth $4B" - The accountants themselves , under oath when he sued someone for claiming he wasn't a Billionaire (a case that was summarily dismissed by the way) admitted that they did not confirm any of the numbers , they just accepted the figures that Trump provided.

Now Trump releases the annual statement about his earnings , but at no point in these documents does he show profits - He simply declares the full turn-over of the entire Trump organisation as his "Earnings" and even those are in incredibly large bands (e.g. Earnings of between 1M and 10M etc.) without any indication of expenses. So we have absolutely no idea is he actually turned a profit - Anywhere he is legally obligated to publish that information (Ireland & Scotland for example) he has never shown a profit , EVER.

Forbes now use the slightly more accurate data from his Presidential releases which has halved his "claimed" net worth.

For reference - The guy he sued and lost to reckoned his true net worth was in the 150M to 300M range - The mid-point of which would be less than half what he was given by Daddy.

As someone else said , if he'd just put it in a trust fund he'd be better off.

Trumps only skill is self-promotion.

Sean.3516

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The "White House Physician" in question here would be Ronnie Jackson.

Ronnie Jackson who was fired for handing out medication without Prescription and doing it so pervasively that his nickname was "The Candy Man".

That's false. He wasn't fired. Trump nominated him for Secretary of Veterans Affairs and he was rejected for the unprofessional conduct you've mentioned. He retired in 2019.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Ronnie Jackson who said “I told the president if he had eaten healthier over the last 25 years, he might live to be 200.”

Ronnie Jackson who Trump later tried to install as head of the Veterans Association despite being utterly unqualified for the role.

Ronnie Jackson who recently won a Texas primary for election to Congress representing the GOP.


What was it again that we weren't allowed to suggest about the veracity of the test results???

He served as physician to both Obama and Trump. Yes he unprofessionally handed out sleeping pills to people in the White House and was known to sometimes drink on the job but there's no evidence he committed malpractice as a physician and there's no evidence he fabricated Trump's cognitive test results

Sean.3516

duploelabs wrote: »

Again, please provide citation for these claims, and again Trump gives those figures to forbes forbes doesn't estimate

Forbes asks people what their net worths are but the don't just publish those figures. They actually estimate after that.

Again, in 2015 Trump claimed he was worth 9 billion dollars. Why didn't Forbes publish that figure? Because they did their own estimations and found that to be categorically false as they said openly. 4.1 billion is what Forbes published in 2015.

Sean.3516

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, he started out with a lot more than that. And plenty of banks won't even loan him money any more...


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/trumps-small-loan-from-his-father-was-more-like-60point7-million-nyt.html

How does any of this debunk the point I was making? 5 million, 60 million, 100 million.

The point is that no stupid person could have gotten as far as Trump has.

duploelabs

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Forbes asks people what their net worths are but the don't just publish those figures. They actually estimate after that.

Again, in 2015 Trump claimed he was worth 9 billion dollars. Why didn't Forbes publish that figure? Because they did their own estimations and found that to be categorically false as they said openly. 4.1 billion is what Forbes published in 2015.

You saying it isn't a citation, you providing a link to the published article, is

Sean.3516

Sean.3516 wrote: »

How does any of this debunk the point I was making? 5 million, 60 million, 100 million.

The point is that no stupid person could have gotten as far as Trump has.

The equivalent of 140 million dollars is far different to what you originally said. Secondly he's in huge debt to multiple banks. If he'd put that money in index funds for example, he would be substantially better off than he is now. Instead he's got an unknown level of debt and massive question around things like money laundering and misrepresenting his worth to banks. Sounds pretty dodgy to me tbh. And still we have no idea what he's worth...