2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Danzy

namloc1980 wrote: »

Examples please that show that he "often now doesn't even reach a tangential point". By the way what does that even mean?

Is it really that hard to understand?

namloc1980

Danzy wrote: »

Is it really that hard to understand?

No examples then and unable to explain your point further. Fair enough.

briany

Noeleff wrote: »

Trump is going to whoop creepy Joe
Embarrassed for all the moderators and administration here who are all anti trump.

You were wrong on 2016 and wrong again.

I cannot rule out Trump winning, but I would seriously have to question the whole political culture in the USA if he did. How does it even look?

"OK, he totally failed to lead during the coronavirus pandemic and the country's staring down the barrel of a recession, the country is becoming a laughing stock internationally, the country's horribly divided and even members of his own party and cabinet have turned on him. But he triggers the libs, soooo... "

joseywhales

I mean Biden could be a corpse and he would still be the preferable option, not that there is any evidence of any health problems. I remember Hillary rumors of ill health last time too, it is an age old ploy, she is not dead yet. Jimmy Carter is still going even!

briany

Trump supporters don't really have any positive arguments in favour of their man. Their case for why Donald Trump should be reelected is based on tenuous and obtuse remarks about his opponent, with the gas thing being it's always stuff that can be said of Trump himself.

Has Trump and his team even bothered to draft a list of 2nd term goals or have they just said f*ck it, and are hoping that somehow the base will carry him through?

Tell me how

Noeleff wrote: »

Trump is going to whoop creepy Joe
Embarrassed for all the moderators and administration here who are all anti trump.

You were wrong on 2016 and wrong again.

What are your thoughts on how he said he was going to hire all the best people and now person after person who worked for him is coming out saying not to vote for him this time round?

Was he wrong to hire them, or are they wrong now?

Manic Moran

briany wrote: »

I cannot rule out Trump winning, but I would seriously have to question the whole political culture in the USA if he did. How does it even look?

Pretty awful, really, if the only other major party actively turns off so many people that even with someone like Trump in the White House, they couldn't win the election.

However, this isn't new either. We've been here for a while. Trump isn't sitting in the oval office with a Republican senate because they are all so appealing. They're there because the opposition was considered by the majority of voters in a majority of States to be the worse option. There is no longer a party which has a hope of claiming to represent the United States. Well, at least no major party, maybe there's an American branch of the Monster Raving Loony Party (with green teeth)

Rjd2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's not like The Donald is a paragon of virtue. Anyway, that's grand. Politics is about getting elected. As long as The Donald loses, who cares what their motives are?

Because they are bad people who have supported some horrific policies and paved the way for Trump. Biden is clearly better than Trump, but the squad and the online progressives are going to have to ensure Biden does not bow to Bush/Cheney Republicans and Wall St Dems after Novemeber.

Its going to be a huge battle as the consistent drooling from people who supposedly are left wing over these type of Republicans doesn't bode well .


https://twitter.com/BenjaminPDixon/status/1294611086222729217

Carfacemandog

Manic Moran wrote: »

Pretty awful, really, if the only other major party actively turns off so many people that even with someone like Trump in the White House, they couldn't win the election.

Trump could be running against a pieced together combination of all of the best parts of JFK, FDR, Lincoln and Jefferson in a modern day package, and that same 38-40% would be 100% behind him, such is the nature of cults.

Democracies deserve the leaders they get, and Trump is about the most damning indictment of the US voting public one could possibly imagine. And all because the letter R sits in brackets beside his name, and he feeds into the bigotry of others.

There's no "both sidesing" the entirely unmatched sh*t show we have seen from Trump in the last 3.5 years, and especially over 2020 - hence why the former DHS chief of staff under him Miles Taylor, as well as former Republican Governor of Ohio John Kasich have each come out to endorse Biden today.

But hey... (R).

dwayneshintzy

Some pretty strong stuff on what Trump was like from a former DHS staffer

Irishman80

Polls often unreliable this far out from the election but this one is interesting. A 10-point swing to Trump since June. And close in most Swing States.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/16/politics/cnn-poll-biden-trump-august/index.html

Cody montana

Looks like Michelle Obama was the star speaker at the Dem convention.

Trump seems to be running on hate, fear and lies.
Biden on compassion, science and change.

Unfortunately trump won with hate, fear and lies the first time.

Billy Mays

It's funny that Trumpers call Biden Creepy Joe when the bloke they cheerlead wants to f*ck his own daughter

ohnonotgmail

Billy Mays wrote: »

It's funny that Trumpers call Biden Creepy Joe when the bloke they cheerlead wants to f*ck his own daughter

it is a level of projection that the Savoy cinema would be proud of.

The Unbearables

Noeleff wrote: »

Trump is going to whoop creepy Joe
Embarrassed for all the moderators and administration here who are all anti trump.

You were wrong on 2016 and wrong again.

Ridiculously liberal views on here unfortunately. Thankfully the US has a high percentage of conservative voters that will power the president to 4 more years.

dwayneshintzy

The Unbearables, have you got a vote? Or do you live in the States, at least?

Leroy42

Irishman80 wrote: »

Polls often unreliable this far out from the election but this one is interesting. A 10-point swing to Trump since June. And close in most Swing States.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/16/politics/cnn-poll-biden-trump-august/index.html

If I was a betting man, I would put money on Trump winning. HE has very successfully created a cult so his followers accept anything he does and will vote for him regardless. Not only that but he has created a siege mentality such that they are very focused on getting out to vote as they think everyone is out to get them.

Second, he has very successfully created the narrative that nothing that you read, hear or see is true. It isn't the lie that is important, it is the situation where nobody believes anything anymore and thus simply sticks to what they what to believe.

Thirdly, the GOP and now Trump with USPS, are very active in gerrymandering and, more impactful in a POTUS election, voter disenfranchisement. They will be very active on polling day to reduce the number of people that can vote in certain areas. There will be plenty of stories of massive lines to vote, voters turned away etc. This will, in the majority, come from areas which would be expected to poll higher for DNC.

Fourth, the DNC just are not very good. Biden, whilst nothing wrong with him, is not exactly inspiring. I don't see him generating the same enthusiasm for voters to get out to vote for him, no matter what.

IMO, there is no reason to vote Trump back into office. I can understand why it happened in 2016, but he has failed spectacularly at the things he said he would do and has been a complete and utter failure at the biggest issue (COVID) that he has faced. Far from MAGA, he has singularly led it to being the pity country of the world.

But I don't think that the majority of Americans see that. I think for many, they see a failed America. One where multiples jobs are needed just to keep food on the table. One where crime is everywhere, whole towns are run down and rotting and inequality is everywhere they look.

And they have been conditioned to believe that and form of socialism, which in America can mean even taxing the wealthy a bot more to fund healthcare, will actually make things worse and as such DNC are going to make things worse.

It is easier to sit here and see the folly or what they did in 2016, and even more what they may be about to do again. BUt for many politics is irrelevant, the media are liars and America is simply the greatest country in the world (despite their experience of it) and it really doesn't matter who is in the WH since nobody cares or will fix things for them so it might as well be the guy off the tele.

IMO, if given another 4 years, America, if not already, will pay a very heavy price for it mistakes with Trump.

The Unbearables

Tut tut tut.

Not looking good for good old Joe. 59% of Americans believe he'll will bow out because of health concerns. No smoke without fire.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/10/joe-biden-hasnt-stamina-four-years/

Tell me how

The Unbearables wrote: »

Ridiculously liberal views on here unfortunately. Thankfully the US has a high percentage of conservative voters that will power the president to 4 more years.

Like these guys?



https://twitter.com/RVAT2020?s=20

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

If I was a betting man, I would put money on Trump winning. HE has very successfully created a cult so his followers accept anything he does and will vote for him regardless. Not only that but he has created a siege mentality such that they are very focused on getting out to vote as they think everyone is out to get them.

Second, he has very successfully created the narrative that nothing that you read, hear or see is true. It isn't the lie that is important, it is the situation where nobody believes anything anymore and thus simply sticks to what they what to believe.

Thirdly, the GOP and now Trump with USPS, are very active in gerrymandering and, more impactful in a POTUS election, voter disenfranchisement. They will be very active on polling day to reduce the number of people that can vote in certain areas. There will be plenty of stories of massive lines to vote, voters turned away etc. This will, in the majority, come from areas which would be expected to poll higher for DNC.

Fourth, the DNC just are not very good. Biden, whilst nothing wrong with him, is not exactly inspiring. I don't see him generating the same enthusiasm for voters to get out to vote for him, no matter what.

IMO, there is no reason to vote Trump back into office. I can understand why it happened in 2016, but he has failed spectacularly at the things he said he would do and has been a complete and utter failure at the biggest issue (COVID) that he has faced. Far from MAGA, he has singularly led it to being the pity country of the world.

But I don't think that the majority of Americans see that. I think for many, they see a failed America. One where multiples jobs are needed just to keep food on the table. One where crime is everywhere, whole towns are run down and rotting and inequality is everywhere they look.

And they have been conditioned to believe that and form of socialism, which in America can mean even taxing the wealthy a bot more to fund healthcare, will actually make things worse and as such DNC are going to make things worse.

It is easier to sit here and see the folly or what they did in 2016, and even more what they may be about to do again. BUt for many politics is irrelevant, the media are liars and America is simply the greatest country in the world (despite their experience of it) and it really doesn't matter who is in the WH since nobody cares or will fix things for them so it might as well be the guy off the tele.

IMO, if given another 4 years, America, if not already, will pay a very heavy price for it mistakes with Trump.

I disagree.

On your first point, his odious little cult isn't that big. Noisy, certainly but that doesn't make it big or powerful. He plays to it because it's all he knows how to do.

Second, he hasn't. This only really applies to his base which was never heavily comprised of intellectuals to begin with. When you job or livelihood is at risk, you don't have the luxury of taking a lecherous, deceitful, demented moron seriously.

Thirdly, gerrymandering seems to be as much a part of US politics as the vote. Trump is so spectacularly weak and feeble that I doubt he's been able to accomplish much of note here. He's only recently started his braying about it.

The DNC have always been terrible as far as I can tell.

In 2016, Trump won because he was able to knit economic liberals and elderly conservative voters together. That electoral coalition has been nuked as the former are repulsed by his trashing of the economy while the latter see tens of thousands of their compatriots die because of Trump's monumental mishandling of the pandemic. All he had to do was listen to Fauci but even so small a task was too much. Instead he's prattling on about injecting disinfectant and blaming it on China.

But hey, more deaths than Obama would have got with his pandemic office right?

The Unbearables

Biden has been running scared of interviews all week since his VP announcement but decided he'd do one with some musician called cardi B yesterday. Lol and he's meant to be the skilled seasoned politician and Trump's meant to be the reality TV guy. Can't wait for the debates (if bunker Joe shows up) as it will be funny and sad for him in equal measures.

Hammer Archer

Danzy wrote: »

He will but Joe often now doesn't even reach a tangential point.

So obviously you are equally worried about Trump's incoherent response to a simple question like "What are your priorities for a second term"?

namloc1980

Trump is holding Cuomo responsible for Covid deaths in New York. He is projecting very hard here: the President who has overseen 175k deaths.

.

Leroy42

The Unbearables wrote: »

Ridiculously liberal views on here unfortunately. Thankfully the US has a high percentage of conservative voters that will power the president to 4 more years.

Trump isn't convervative though. He is not into family values, or religion. He doesn't believe in military service, he has no record of helping in the community.

He is one of the most socialist POTUS ever, with Bns given in handouts to farmers.

The only thing conservative about Trump is he wants to maintain the system as it currently is. Advantage and protection for selected groups whilst simultaneously demonising other groups for not sorting themselves out and looking for handouts.

Tell me how

Leroy42 wrote: »

If I was a betting man, I would put money on Trump winning. HE has very successfully created a cult so his followers accept anything he does and will vote for him regardless. Not only that but he has created a siege mentality such that they are very focused on getting out to vote as they think everyone is out to get them.

Second, he has very successfully created the narrative that nothing that you read, hear or see is true. It isn't the lie that is important, it is the situation where nobody believes anything anymore and thus simply sticks to what they what to believe.

Thirdly, the GOP and now Trump with USPS, are very active in gerrymandering and, more impactful in a POTUS election, voter disenfranchisement. They will be very active on polling day to reduce the number of people that can vote in certain areas. There will be plenty of stories of massive lines to vote, voters turned away etc. This will, in the majority, come from areas which would be expected to poll higher for DNC.

Fourth, the DNC just are not very good. Biden, whilst nothing wrong with him, is not exactly inspiring. I don't see him generating the same enthusiasm for voters to get out to vote for him, no matter what.

IMO, there is no reason to vote Trump back into office. I can understand why it happened in 2016, but he has failed spectacularly at the things he said he would do and has been a complete and utter failure at the biggest issue (COVID) that he has faced. Far from MAGA, he has singularly led it to being the pity country of the world.

But I don't think that the majority of Americans see that. I think for many, they see a failed America. One where multiples jobs are needed just to keep food on the table. One where crime is everywhere, whole towns are run down and rotting and inequality is everywhere they look.

And they have been conditioned to believe that and form of socialism, which in America can mean even taxing the wealthy a bot more to fund healthcare, will actually make things worse and as such DNC are going to make things worse.

It is easier to sit here and see the folly or what they did in 2016, and even more what they may be about to do again. But for many politics is irrelevant, the media are liars and America is simply the greatest country in the world (despite their experience of it) and it really doesn't matter who is in the WH since nobody cares or will fix things for them so it might as well be the guy off the tele.

IMO, if given another 4 years, America, if not already, will pay a very heavy price for it mistakes with Trump.

I agree with the final sentence but not so much on points 1-3

In 2016, HC got 3M more in the popular vote (still not enough to win the election of course), and that was at a time when, I think the Republicans really bought in to the Build the Wall/Lock her Up/Drain the swamp chants. Can't see how anyone who voted for HC last time will have changed their vote.

I think he has gone so far with the narrative about things being fake and so often news of this is followed up with demonstrable cases of him lying which actually draws attention to something which he might hope people didn't think about.

As for the GOP party. As with Republicans against Trump, or Lincoln PRoject, there have been very obvious groups cut their losses and leave. And leave early. And put a lot of effort in to undermining him. Effort which is more likely to be viewed by Republicans because they have their ear.

Was very telling for me earlier to see Chris Wallace and Dana Perino practically give a round of applause for Michelle Obama's speech at the DNC. Trump himself is now targeting Fox and it is obvious he is doing so because he doesn't like their message, which, of course many Republicans are seeing.

All that being said, I still don't think this is a dead cert for Biden. I genuinely think the USPS will be a problem and at the very least will create legal cases afterwards as to whether votes count or not. I also think that it is pretty much guaranteed that in the final 2 weeks up to the election, if Covid can in any way be exploited to prevent some polling stations open, it will happen.

Fingers crossed that Biden wins because Trump is so incompetent and will go off the charts with Executive Orders and favours to friends in term 2 if he gets in.

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump isn't convervative though. He is not into family values, or religion. He doesn't believe in military service, he has no record of helping in the community.

He is one of the most socialist POTUS ever, with Bns given in handouts to farmers.

The only thing conservative about Trump is he wants to maintain the system as it currently is. Advantage and protection for selected groups whilst simultaneously demonising other groups for not sorting themselves out and looking for handouts.

I think that this is what conservatism is now. Privileges for elites while triggering liberals and the left.

extra gravy

The Unbearables wrote: »

Ridiculously liberal views on here unfortunately. Thankfully the US has a high percentage of conservative voters that will power the president to 4 more years.

Trump isn't a conservative but he is a fascist

the machismo
critics hate their country
the obsession with a plot against him
the appeal to xenophobia
the cronyism and corruption
the attempt at voter suppression etc etc

Why do you support a fascist?

WrenBoy

extra gravy wrote: »

Trump isn't a conservative but he is a fascist

the machismo
critics hate their country
the obsession with a plot against him
the appeal to xenophobia
the cronyism and corruption
the attempt at voter suppression etc etc

Why do you support a fascist?

:rolleyes:
Yerra everyone likes a bad boy don't they ?

ohnonotgmail

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that this is what conservatism is now. Privileges for elites while triggering liberals and the left.

killing 170,000 to own the libs

Quin_Dub

Irishman80 wrote: »

Polls often unreliable this far out from the election but this one is interesting. A 10-point swing to Trump since June. And close in most Swing States.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/16/politics/cnn-poll-biden-trump-august/index.html

Indeed - However almost every other new poll showed Biden maintaining a healthy lead.

So much so that his "blended" lead in the RCP Average increased from 7.4 to 7.7 yesterday when they included the glut of polls over the last few days. It also has him above the key 50% threshold - A level Clinton never got to.

His "Battleground state" lead is also holding steady.

I would assume that there will be a barrage of polling this week and next to gauge the impact of the Conventions so we'll see where things lie at the end of the Month , but early voting starts in about 4 weeks.

Trump won in 2016 by sweeping up a large chunk of the "undecided" voters. He did not win over any significant volume of Democrat voters

There doesn't appear to be enough of those around this time though.

Take the Battleground States from RCP

Biden is on 48.7% , Trump on 44.4% so that means there are 6.9% of voters either undecided or going 3rd Party in those states. There were almost twice as many in that bucket at this same point in 2016.

The Libertarian/Greens tickets will probably take 1-2% maybe 3% at a push , so that leaves at most 4-5% of undecided voters.

To win Trump needs to move ALL of them over to him .

A very very big ask.