Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

NasserShammaz

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Her PhD thesis would be an interesting read, lol.

Go for it and let us know.....

Vologda69

An Ancient Egyptian anklet... Not a manacle

https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/Stock-Images/Rights-Managed/HEZ-2367498

nullzero

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Her PhD thesis would be an interesting read, lol.

It was pretty short actually... "I am black if you fail me you're a racist".

Kivaro

I posted this notion previously after she went berserk over Ribenagate:
How rigorous was Dr. Ebun Joseph's thesis examination? Were her examiners frightened to mark her negatively if how she behaves in public was reflected in her thesis submission and subsequent examination?
There should be a review of the whole doctorate award.

The main other point of this statue debacle is the role of our national broadcaster in all of this. RTE is the most divisive entity in the State. Their whole purpose is to try and alienate the population and to unnecessarily cause as much strife in our society as possible. To do this during a worldwide pandemic is despicable.

RTE is a thousand times worse than the racist Dr. Ebun Joseph, and they are responsible for much of the division that we see in our country at the moment. RTE is a national disgrace and an appalling quango.

Donald Trump

Kivaro wrote: »

I posted this notion previously after she went berserk over Ribenagate:
How rigorous was Dr. Ebun Joseph's thesis examination? Were her examiners frightened to mark her negatively if how she behaves in public was reflected in her thesis submission and subsequent examination?
There should be a review of the whole doctorate award.

No there shouldn't. UCD awarded it based on their criteria and it is up to them to award their own degrees, as is their right to do so. It is not up for anyone else to retroactively try to remove something they awarded. There would have been an external examiner too. The extern has to sign off on the entire process, and also participates in the Viva (oral examination) part.



It is equal in merit to any other UCD award. But I wouldn't be getting worried about it.....I'd place about as much weight in an interview situation on someone having a degree from UCD as them having a handwritten letter from their Mammy saying "John is the best boy in the world".....although that said, at least if they had the letter you'd know that someone in their household could read and write! she might have also won a colouring competition in the local library when she was 8. I'm not going to be protesting to get them to remove that either.

Clare_Culchie

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Her PhD thesis would be an interesting read, lol.

Knock yourself out...

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstream/10197/9022/1/Whiteness_and_Racism-_Exploring_the_racial_order_in_Ireland_-_Peer_reviewed_copy.pdf

RandomName2

NasserShammaz wrote: »

Go for it and let us know.....

The title is:

Racial stratification in the Irish labour market: a comparative study of differential labour market outcomes through the counter-stories of Nigerian, Polish and Spanish migrants in Ireland

There are other, more recent articles of hers that are published that seems to take bits of that thesis though. These articles are very verbose but not badly written as such. They are incredibly selective though.

Take this sentence

Regarding borders and movement, we also observe the Commonwealth Immigration Act of 1962, a piece of legislation that substantially limited immigration for people of colour, but allowed the Irish freedom to move back and forth into the UK, a country that previously colonised them. While this special system is still in place today, none of the former Black African colonies of Britain is granted this access or free movement of persons or trade across
its boarders [sic].

The fact that we literally share a land border with the United Kingdom seems to be lost on her in this regard.

the Ireland that between 2002 and 2010, the Irish census statistics showed exchanged its stock of foreign workers from non-EU migrants to EU migrants after the 2004 accession, signalling a transition to the more ‘acceptable’ migrants (Fanning, 2009; Joseph, 2015; Lentin 2007), raises crucial questions as to whether a person’s physiognomy is a key factor in understanding race and how it influences labour market outcomes

Again incredible bias being shown here. Of course foreign workers from EU countries get preference. We are literally in a an economic and monetary union that has freedom of movement as a core component with the other EU states. Saying that we 'choose' Poles over 'Blacks' because of phrenological similarity is spurious.

This finding thus suggests that Ireland is not only a racial state (Goldberg, 2002) and a racist state (Lentin 23and McVeigh, 2006), but is also a heavily racially stratified state. [...] However, Ireland appears not only to have a colour-coded migrant penalty but also an intolerance to difference as is evident in the racialisation of Irish Travellers, who are white (Hayes, 2006). This fact forms the basis and reinforces the argument that Irish racism is not simply colour-coded (Garner, 2009). Unlike the U.S. where non-Black minorities must compare their treatment to African Americans to redress their grievances, it would seem that in Ireland, Irish Travellers constitute the prototypical minority group. Nonetheless, it is important to note that part of the colonial tactics mobilised against the Irish and Irish travellers involved similar cultural and symbolic representations of ‘Blacks’ as ‘dirty’, ‘poor’, ‘violent’, and ‘disruptive’ (Tsri, 2016). On this premise, I argue that the use of perceived difference in language, accent, religion and nationality as a pretext to exploit and racialise the Irish conforms to the colour line, symbolically ‘darkening’ even white subjects with comparable consequences (Joseph, 2015). Although skin colour is not the only possible explanation for the change in the positioning of the Irish in their Diaspora settings, the mobilisation of phenotypic whiteness by the Irish is indisputable.

Okay, that's enough of that.

Beechwoodspark

Kivaro wrote: »

I posted this notion previously after she went berserk over Ribenagate:
How rigorous was Dr. Ebun Joseph's thesis examination? Were her examiners frightened to mark her negatively if how she behaves in public was reflected in her thesis submission and subsequent examination?
There should be a review of the whole doctorate award.

The main other point of this statue debacle is the role of our national broadcaster in all of this. RTE is the most divisive entity in the State. Their whole purpose is to try and alienate the population and to unnecessarily cause as much strife in our society as possible. To do this during a worldwide pandemic is despicable.

RTE is a thousand times worse than the racist Dr. Ebun Joseph, and they are responsible for much of the division that we see in our country at the moment. RTE is a national disgrace and an appalling quango.

Fully agree.

RTÉ should not be giving this woman a platform to spew absolute ignorant and downright poisonous nonsense.

Instead they should have assessed her before she went on air and realized this woman has mental health issues and sought appropriate treatment.

Shame on RTÉ and the prime time producers.

RandomName2

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

RTÉ should not be giving this woman a platform to spew absolute ignorant and downright poisonous nonsense.

'Ignorance is no defense, saying you do not know is no defense' Ebun Jospeh

Clare_Culchie wrote: »

Knock yourself out...

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstream/10197/9022/1/Whiteness_and_Racism-_Exploring_the_racial_order_in_Ireland_-_Peer_reviewed_copy.pdf

Her actual PhD thesis was never published in full, but she does seem to borrow from it heavily.

NasserShammaz

RandomName2 wrote: »

The title is:

Racial stratification in the Irish labour market: a comparative study of differential labour market outcomes through the counter-stories of Nigerian, Polish and Spanish migrants in Ireland

There are other, more recent articles of hers that are published that seems to take bits of that thesis though. These articles are very verbose but not badly written as such. They are incredibly selective though.

Take this sentence

Regarding borders and movement, we also observe the Commonwealth Immigration Act of 1962, a piece of legislation that substantially limited immigration for people of colour, but allowed the Irish freedom to move back and forth into the UK, a country that previously colonised them. While this special system is still in place today, none of the former Black African colonies of Britain is granted this access or free movement of persons or trade across
its boarders [sic].

The fact that we literally share a land border with the United Kingdom seems to be lost on her in this regard.

the Ireland that between 2002 and 2010, the Irish census statistics showed exchanged its stock of foreign workers from non-EU migrants to EU migrants after the 2004 accession, signalling a transition to the more ‘acceptable’ migrants (Fanning, 2009; Joseph, 2015; Lentin 2007), raises crucial questions as to whether a person’s physiognomy is a key factor in understanding race and how it influences labour market outcomes

Again incredible bias being shown here. Of course foreign workers from EU countries get preference. We are literally in a an economic and monetary union that has freedom of movement as a core component with the other EU states. Saying that we 'choose' Poles over 'Blacks' because of phrenological similarity is spurious.

This finding thus suggests that Ireland is not only a racial state (Goldberg, 2002) and a racist state (Lentin 23and McVeigh, 2006), but is also a heavily racially stratified state. [...] However, Ireland appears not only to have a colour-coded migrant penalty but also an intolerance to difference as is evident in the racialisation of Irish Travellers, who are white (Hayes, 2006). This fact forms the basis and reinforces the argument that Irish racism is not simply colour-coded (Garner, 2009). Unlike the U.S. where non-Black minorities must compare their treatment to African Americans to redress their grievances, it would seem that in Ireland, Irish Travellers constitute the prototypical minority group. Nonetheless, it is important to note that part of the colonial tactics mobilised against the Irish and Irish travellers involved similar cultural and symbolic representations of ‘Blacks’ as ‘dirty’, ‘poor’, ‘violent’, and ‘disruptive’ (Tsri, 2016). On this premise, I argue that the use of perceived difference in language, accent, religion and nationality as a pretext to exploit and racialise the Irish conforms to the colour line, symbolically ‘darkening’ even white subjects with comparable consequences (Joseph, 2015). Although skin colour is not the only possible explanation for the change in the positioning of the Irish in their Diaspora settings, the mobilisation of phenotypic whiteness by the Irish is indisputable.

Okay, that's enough of that.

I suspect she may have had help but it does read like she talks .... lots of content but little substance and a feeling that what she has said she has just researched and is just repeating but nothing is absorbed.

Donald Trump

Did nobody think to suggest to her that perhaps the statues were just of some Northsiders

Non solum non ambulabit

RandomName2 wrote: »

Take this sentence

Regarding borders and movement, we also observe the Commonwealth Immigration Act of 1962, a piece of legislation that substantially limited immigration for people of colour, but allowed the Irish freedom to move back and forth into the UK, a country that previously colonised them. While this special system is still in place today, none of the former Black African colonies of Britain is granted this access or free movement of persons or trade across its boarders [sic].

The fact that we literally share a land border with the United Kingdom seems to be lost on her in this regard.

It's also probably due to the fact Ireland was not a colony but a constituent part of the UK under the 1800 act of Union.

She hasn't a clue, dangerously so.

ted1

Clare_Culchie wrote: »

Knock yourself out...

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstream/10197/9022/1/Whiteness_and_Racism-_Exploring_the_racial_order_in_Ireland_-_Peer_reviewed_copy.pdf

Just scanned it, it’s awful prejudicial from the start. Can’t see how she passed

RandomName2

Some more gems from the Dr. :

If you feel uncomfortable, if you dislike what you hear that is a good thing if you are White. If you are Black and you dislike what you hear, that is racist, because whites are superior.

There is no whiteness outside of white supremacy.

Anti-black racism is a global pandemic, like COVID-19. We need people who are not black to change their policies, change their lifestyle, change their belief systems.

Er there's a quote from her somewhere where she says it's racist to make people change their lifestyles or belief systems, but that clearly only applies if the people are non-white, because she's a black supremacist.

God it is as frustrating as listing to Dr. Ian Paisley ranting and having his congregation sucking up the bigotry.

Muahahaha

mick087 wrote: »

The statues was not causing offence Unill the hotel took them down
Now apparently they was causing an offence.
I dont think anyone ever complained and id say few people ever took any notice of them.

No one knew what they were till yesterday when they got taken down. But I certainly remember them when going there for a couple of pints in the Shelbournes front bar on a Friday before heading elsewhere. On dark winter nights you couldnt help but notice these statues holding up the big lights with their hands above their heads. Statues venerating a specific person are one thing but these are not that. They are simply a display of opulence outside an opulent 5 star deluxe hotel in the heart our capital city.

It annoys me now that there have been removed as they were an integral part of the fascade and fabric of the building. I've always have a soft spot for the Shelbourne as despite its 5 star standing it has always been what I would call an 'Everyman hotel'. They may sell the Princess Grace suite upstairs for 12 grand a night but so long as you have a fiver in your pocket you can go in there and order a cup of coffee, get a free Irish Times and lounge on a comfy sofa whilst enjoying the beautiful surroundings. There is always a welcome on the mat and the staff in there are absolutely top drawer.

If Dublins Shelbourne Hotel were in New York, Paris or London you wouldnt get in their door without being wearing a three piece suit and polished shoes, a polcy designed to automatically exclude 90% of people. With the Shelbourne it is different, everyone is welcome as a customer.

Dr.Ebun seems to have taken over this whole story now but I hope people actually realise and focus on the owners Kennedy Wilson and tenants the Marriot Hotel Group who unilaterally made this decision to remove these statues. They need to be restored back to their plinths, either voluntarily by the landlord and tenant or by court order for them desecrating a listed building for no good reason whatsoever.

murpho999

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

If i went to let's say Dubai and didn't agree with their culture i wouldn't just tell them to remove stuff and change their ways i'd just either accept it or move to another country.

It's our culture and she can jog on if she doesn't agree with it. I'm sick to the hens teeth of people of her ilk.

Why pick Dubai? A place with very few human rights and strong religious restrictions and less rights to air viewpoints or protest?
Why not pick UK, or USA or a European country where you'd be perfectly entitled to voice your opinion.

I don't agree with much of what she said.

The point is she was on the show to provide an informed and educated viewpoint of the issue. One could argue that she failed on that.

However just because she offered her viewpoint does not mean she's criticising our culture.
She's taking part in a debate that already exists in the country. She hasn't just arrived here and demanded that the statues be removed.

So telling her to go back to her own country when she's merely expressing her opinion in a free democracy is just wrong.

Finally, those statues are not part of our culture. Like most people I'm sure you knew nothing about them until this week. They're just part of a posh hotel. No more.

Montage of Feck

RTE are aping the failing american media by fostering adversarial debates with little critical analysis or common sense.

Rodney Bathgate

It is disappointing that RTE felt the need to give this grifter Ebun Joseph airtime as it gives legitimacy to her that she doesn’t deserve.

RandomName2

Oh I now get what her thesis is about.

The central aspect is that she interviewed a group of non-Irish people living in Ireland (Spanish, Poles, and Nigerians) and said

'If you were to put the different groups (namely Irish, Spanish, Pole, and Nigerian) into a hierarchy, what order would you place each in the hierarchy.' This then proves a hierarchy by assuming one in the first place (begging the question), and provides a leading question in order to get biased information. Remember that it is asking the participants of the survey to evaluate themselves.

The other part of the thesis shows that Nigerians are less employed than the other two groups (Spanish and Poles). It is not clear what the Nigerians who aren't in employment are doing.. are they in direct provision (and therefore, at the time the thesis was written, barred from work)? Are they in education? Clearly they cannot be on work visas, so it raises the question what they are doing in the country in the first place. This question may be raised, but does not seem to be answered by the venerable doctor.

I would be surprised if a Spaniard or Pole who came to Ireland to work, who no longer had a job, would stay in Ireland in the event they could not find work. Therefore the survey excludes migrant workers who have returned to their countries of origin.

UCD, like the hotel of this thread, parades Ebun in orer to win street cred with the people who value this sort of thing, however they discredit their academic reputation in doing so.

Rodney Bathgate

RandomName2 wrote: »

Oh I now get what her thesis is about.

The central aspect is that she interviewed a group of non-Irish people living in Ireland (Spanish, Poles, and Nigerians) and said

'If you were to put the different groups (namely Irish, Spanish, Pole, and Nigerian) into a hierarchy, what order would you place each in the hierarchy.' This then proves a hierarchy by assuming one in the first place (begging the question), and provides a leading question in order to get biased information. Remember that it is asking the participants of the survey to evaluate themselves.

The other part of the thesis shows that Nigerians are less employed than the other two groups (Spanish and Poles). It is not clear what the Nigerians who aren't in employment are doing.. are they in direct provision (and therefore, at the time the thesis was written, barred from work)? Are they in education? Clearly they cannot be on work visas, so it raises the question what they are doing in the country in the first place. This question may be raised, but does not seem to be answered by the venerable doctor.

I would be surprised if a Spaniard or Pole who came to Ireland to work, who no longer had a job, would stay in Ireland in the event they could not find work. Therefore the survey excludes migrant workers who have returned to their countries of origin.

UCD, like the hotel of this thread, parades Ebun in orer to win street cred with the people who value this sort of thing, however they discredit their academic reputation in doing so.

It is fair to say her logic has more holes than Swiss cheese.

c.p.w.g.w

Clare_Culchie wrote: »

Knock yourself out...

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstream/10197/9022/1/Whiteness_and_Racism-_Exploring_the_racial_order_in_Ireland_-_Peer_reviewed_copy.pdf

Looks like a really small sample size

c.p.w.g.w

Montage of Feck wrote: »

RTE are aping the failing american media by fostering adversarial debates with little critical analysis or common sense.

Can we make a complaint about her appearance...she offered no facts

Rodney Bathgate

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Can we make a complaint about her appearance...she offered no facts

You can complain but she’ll be on again in a few weeks giving out about the racists who complained the last time she was on.

RandomName2

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

You can complain but she’ll be on again in a few weeks giving out about the racists who complained the last time she was on.

I could write it in advance. It's as predictable and limited as a Trump address.

These White people, they don't like what I have to say. It makes them all red, and uncomfortable. They are in denial. They are the racists in their actions. We need to make them see that they are wrong. It is a five step program. It is like they are in recovery. They don't see themselves, because they are blinded by a stratification of race that they are born into. They didn't choose to be born into racism, but now it is up to them to confront it. It is okay them being uncomfortable. This is the White Fragility I talk about in my thesis.

This is part of the learning process. I will not be dissuaded. I owe it to us all for me to help Whites understand their privilege, their need to change. We need Ireland to change. We were colonised, and now we need to be the anti-racists. We need to learn from the diaspora of indifference that structural racism must be taken apart.

*cue white female interviewer nodding sagely*

KevRossi

NasserShammaz wrote: »

God as appalling as she is imagine being a rational intelligent well educated balanced Irish citizen of African or west Indian heritage looking as this idiot apparently representing you , and how lazy and insulting of rte not to even bother trying to find a proper guest to add to any discussion but just constantly wheel out this ghoul....

I think a lot of African-Irish are either plssed off with her, or just embarrassed with her. It's a bit like Michale Lowry in Tipperary, some love him, most people hate him.

She has become a de facto spokesperson for the black community here, much the same way as the radical conservative cleric Iman Halawa was wheeled out for any comments on Muslims, when most Muslims here abhorred the man. Most black Africans I know disagree with her and her methods.

RTE need to get a bit more diversification when talking about diversity. She's a radical, radicals represent the fringes, not the majority.

feargale wrote: »

The Pillar was removed by a bunch of criminals who had no respect for the wishes of the people of Dublin or Ireland. The Pillar would have been legally removed if Dublin people ever wished it so.

At the time it was blown up, the discussion was to remove Nelson and replace him with someone (or something) else. Most people enjoyed the novelty of going up to the top of the pillar. It should have stayed, but Nelson should have been swapped out. This is what happens when knee-jerk radicals take decision making upon themselves.

RandomName2 wrote: »

The logical conclusion can only be that no depictions of blacks in art is acceptable in Ireland (or perhaps only could be if whites are predominantly removed from the setting).

I wonder what would she think of this piece of art, would she ask to have it banned here?

ted1

RandomName2 wrote: »

Oh I now get what her thesis is about.

The central aspect is that she interviewed a group of non-Irish people living in Ireland (Spanish, Poles, and Nigerians) and said

'If you were to put the different groups (namely Irish, Spanish, Pole, and Nigerian) into a hierarchy, what order would you place each in the hierarchy.' This then proves a hierarchy by assuming one in the first place (begging the question), and provides a leading question in order to get biased information. Remember that it is asking the participants of the survey to evaluate themselves.

The other part of the thesis shows that Nigerians are less employed than the other two groups (Spanish and Poles). It is not clear what the Nigerians who aren't in employment are doing.. are they in direct provision (and therefore, at the time the thesis was written, barred from work)? Are they in education? Clearly they cannot be on work visas, so it raises the question what they are doing in the country in the first place. This question may be raised, but does not seem to be answered by the venerable doctor.

I would be surprised if a Spaniard or Pole who came to Ireland to work, who no longer had a job, would stay in Ireland in the event they could not find work. Therefore the survey excludes migrant workers who have returned to their countries of origin.

UCD, like the hotel of this thread, parades Ebun in orer to win street cred with the people who value this sort of thing, however they discredit their academic reputation in doing so.

The people from EU member states arrived here legally and dint need visas She doesn’t mention how the Nigerians got here or their immigration status.

She also doesn’t look at their 3rd level qualification and how it stacks up to the Washington or Bologna accord

I’d question how she was awarded a phd if her thesis misses such obvious points

markodaly

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Illegal for the hotel to change its own decorations? Do people not even pretend to read the stories before a kneejerk reaction?

Not for the first, or last time, you are utterly wrong.

The Shelbourne hotel facade is a protected structure, thus any alterations to it has to go through the proper planning system. But I do know that you are a fan of mob rule and lawlessness, so whatever.:pac:

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus ****ing wept. She didn't even know about these statues until they were removed.

This x1000

She wasn't even aware of these statues, yet her mantra is that these statues cause 'harm' the black people living in Ireland.

How can an inanimate bronze object cause one harm, if you do not even know it exists?
Does it make people sick? Does it leak radiation?

Oh, and these statues are not even a dedication of 'slave' girls, they are something else as the letter to the Irish Times clarified.

To be honest, the people jumping up and down are grade A philistines and those defending them, the SJW white Irish types (a few on this thread) are even worse as they give cause to idiocracy that gets cover in 'well you are just racist if you do not agree with me'.

markodaly

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Imagine in my misguided youth Micheal McDowell was the political bogey man, he's actually one of the best we've had. That women is an absolute pox, a taking head for hire in a made up controversy.

McDowell and the PD's always got a hard time, especially from the media, looney left and SF crowd because he called them out for what they are.

Now, 13 years out of politics people are realising that he was much more correct in his views than wrong.


Like, this is what we have in the Dail right now.

https://twitter.com/RuthCoppingerSP/status/1288946190155997185

Charming. I guess McDowell should have chopped his penis off and flayed himself on Primetime instead of voicing his own opinion, after all are we not a free society?

THIS is why the left in the form of PBP/SOL will never be in power in Ireland.

markodaly

RandomName2 wrote: »

Er there's a quote from her somewhere where she says it's racist to make people change their lifestyles or belief systems, but that clearly only applies if the people are non-white, because she's a black supremacist.

God it is as frustrating as listing to Dr. Ian Paisley ranting and having his congregation sucking up the bigotry.

This is the new religion of our time.

For Ireland, we have finally taken off the shackles of the RCC that dominated Irish society for decades, if not centuries only for it to be replaced with a dogmatic, utopian, equality at all cost type of hectoring from people like Dr. Ebun.

The similarities are eery.

You have them on the church altar like RTE or youtube or employed by UCD, lecturing us, the masses and plebs on how we are 'inherently bad' and most atone for 'sins' for doing this or that.

Ireland or indeed anywhere that is or was majority white now has an original sin of well... being white, and thus that in of itself is racist thus we must go to church and drink from the alter of progressiveness, cleanse ourselves with 're-education' so we can be 'good' and reach heaven (not be racist) because after all, everyone is racist (apart from black people who cannot be racist)

When people speak about the death of religion I say to them, we have only replaced one religion with another, as there will always be people or groups of people out there more then ready to fill the void, telling us all, how we are sinful or bad, and how their morals/ethics or ideaology is really the one and only truth.