Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

Quantum Erasure

TheCitizen wrote: »

Well it is a fact that monuments and statues and place names get changed or moved around from time to time. This current thing is in relation to BLM, there aren’t many monuments in Ireland that come under that category given that we didn’t have slavery as part of our history like it was in Britain or France or especially the USA, so I think you’re over reacting a bit.

...or Africa, it seems

Who's over reacting though, really

Rodney Bathgate

o1s1n wrote: »

Anything else in your debating arsenal other than ad hominem attacks?

Personal attacks

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Well it is a fact that monuments and statues and place names get changed or moved around from time to time. This current thing is in relation to BLM, there aren’t many monuments in Ireland that come under that category given that we didn’t have slavery as part of our history like it was in Britain or France or especially the USA, so I think you’re over reacting a bit.

BLM and slavery now.

"Why is it ok to remove slavery but it isn't ok to remove misogyny?"
"Why is it ok to remove misogyny and slavery but it isn't ok to remove homophobia?"
"Why is it ok to remove misogyny, slavery, and homophobia, but it isn't ok to remove Antisemitism?"

I think my reaction is appropriate. I've been arguing against this stuff for years and it's turning out exactly like I predicted.

TheCitizen

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

McDowell's argument was that they didn't depict slaves, but even if they did, it didn't matter, they form part of the building and require permission to change / remove them.

Yes, I think he might have been chancing his arm a bit (it wouldn’t be the first time with McDowell). I imagine removing free standing statues is different than changing the look of the hotel front for example. I could be wrong but wouldn’t surprise me that McDowell was trying it on a bit himself there. He has plenty of form in that regard.

TheCitizen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

BLM and slavery now.

"Why is it ok to remove slavery but it isn't ok to remove misogyny?"
"Why is it ok to remove misogyny and slavery but it isn't ok to remove homophobia?"
"Why is it ok to remove misogyny, slavery, and homophobia, but it isn't ok to remove Antisemitism?"

I think my reaction is appropriate. I've been arguing against this stuff for years and it's turning out exactly like I predicted.

Who said it isn’t ok to remove misogyny or homophobia or antisemitism. What are you talking about?

TheCitizen

o1s1n wrote: »

Anything else in your debating arsenal other than ad hominem attacks?

What’s ad hominem about it? I think a lot of the reaction to removing these statues outside the Shelbourne is shrill overreaction predictably from certain quarters.

markodaly

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0729/1156195-shelbourne-hotel/

This woman must be on the wind up. She’s beyond parody.

Dr Ebun Joseph said members of the black community could not afford to go to the hotel so perhaps did not know the statues even existed.

Arguably the most racist thing she said.

Like, if anyone else said that here they would be banned, yet she directly links and correlates black people to poverty without even an iota of self-awareness to what she has said.

I am sure, many a black person from Ireland or from around the world has stayed and visited the Shelbourne.

I agree in a way that she is now the story, but by God, how can one not comment on her outright stupid remarks? She makes creationists sound logical.

Signore Fancy Pants

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes, I think he might have been chancing his arm a bit (it wouldn’t be the first time with McDowell). I imagine removing free standing statues is different than changing the look of the hotel front for example. I could be wrong but wouldn’t surprise me that McDowell was trying it on a bit himself there. He has plenty of form in that regard.

Out of the two contributors of last nights Primetime, McDowell was the one who was educated to an extent with the statues. He was right when he said they were not slaves and were not celebrating slavery.

The other was on an agenda crestwave with no intent to view an alternative because her verbal armoury only had a racist narrative.

The interviewer was incredibly one sided to the extent that McDowell consistently had to defend his position, whereas the black female was allowed free reign with incorrect opinions.

She made McDowell look reasonable. Anyone who believes Ebun Joseph in this situation is
Blind fool.

Quantum Erasure

Wait till they get in to the art galleries, Nubian princesses and Haitian maidens... That's all fetishism, has to go....

Be right back

markodaly wrote: »

Arguably the most racist thing she said.

Like, if anyone else said that here they would be banned, yet she directly links and correlates black people to poverty without even an iota of self-awareness to what she has said.

I am sure, many a black person from Ireland or from around the world has stayed and visited the Shelbourne.

I agree in a way that she is now the story, but by God, how can one not comment on her outright stupid remarks? She makes creationists sound logical.

I read Michelle Obama and her daughters have stayed there.
I watched some of the interview on the player. She appears to have done little research and threw random facts around. The interviewer was also very one sided too.

mfceiling

Surely saying "black people cannot afford to go the Shelbourne" is racist?

Rodney Bathgate

You’d have to wonder about anyone defending this grifter after last nights performance.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Who said it isn’t ok to remove misogyny or homophobia or antisemitism. What are you talking about?

Once you include one, you include them all, and if we start applying modern standards to history, an argument can be made to remove almost everything. And the more you give, the harder it is to say no the next time since that would be saying antisemitism isn't as bad as slavery. And who the hell is brave enough to say that.

How well will Europe's art, culture, and history fair if we start to look into the people who built these things and what they were used for? Italy is profiting every year of a history of slaves being forced to fight to the death. The Colosseum has to be cancelled.

Your repeated implications that we're just racists for caring about this just shows up the fact that you don't have any argument. Nothing.

Rodney Bathgate

mfceiling wrote: »

Surely saying "black people cannot afford to go the Shelbourne" is racist?

Did this lady actually say that?

TheCitizen

markodaly wrote: »

How do you know? Oh you don't, you are making it up?

Right...

McDowell is actually a Republican, no not the kill toddlers and women Provo types but an 'actual' Republican. (If you don't know what that means, look it up)

I remember him, in a Prime Time debate, sitting next to Eamon o'Cuiv facing Kevin Myers and John Bruton. The debate, which was actually a very good one, was about the Easter Rising itself and violent Irish Republicanism and the War of Independence. 'Did the end justify the means'

McDowell was on the side of the Irish Revolution, while Myers and Bruton were more of the, 'we should have seen the Home Rule act through before rising up in violence'.
A decent debate with good substantive points made by both sides.

Anyway, to conclude, I think you are wrong about your assumption on him.

How do I know what? What are you blathering about? So now you’re going to turn this into another attack on the “Provos” etc. Usual stuff from you. I recall plenty from McDowell over the years and he often abused Dail privilege to suit himself. He got turfed out by the people at the end of the day and part of that was his penchant for taking liberties with Dail privilege.

He accused a newspaper in Northern Ireland (Ireland on Sunday IIRC) of being funded by the IRA in one such incident. He has no proof, I think it was the case that he just didn’t like the editorial opinion from that paper. When the paper tried to get him to appear in court in Northern Ireland to stand by his charge, he refused to turn up citing diplomatic immunity. He was a chancer and went off the radar thankfully when he lost his Dail seat, now he’s back again pontificating as Senator McDowell.

TheCitizen

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Personal attacks

The irony of that comment from this poster

TheCitizen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Once you include one, you include them all, and if we start applying modern standards to history, an argument can be made to remove almost everything. And the more you give, the harder it is to say no the next time since that would be saying antisemitism isn't as bad as slavery. And who the hell is brave enough to say that.

How well will Europe's art, culture, and history fair if we start to look into the people who built these things and what they were used for? Italy is profiting every year of a history of slaves being forced to fight to the death. The Colosseum has to be cancelled.

Your repeated implications that we're just racists for caring about this just shows up the fact that you don't have any argument. Nothing.

Statues and monuments get moved from time to time. Street names get renamed. It happens. They will not be cancelling the Colosseum don’t be ridiculous

Rodney Bathgate

TheCitizen wrote: »

The irony of that comment from this poster

Funny, you must have a statue removal fetish. You got hot under the collar over removing a Columbus statue a while back. Couldn’t control your temper.

ParkRunner

This will pass. The Shelbourne should just tell the council they will put the statues back up on a dark night in November by which time there will be another knee jerk social media movement on a different agenda and hardly anyone will notice.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Statues and monuments get moved from time to time. Street names get renamed. It happens. They will not be cancelling the Colosseum don’t be ridiculous

If I told you in 2017 that in 2020, statues of Nubian princesses would be removed from the Sheraton in Dublin because a white police officer killed a black man in America, you'd have said that was ridiculous. But here we are.

"It happens" as a response to fringe groups removing art, culture, and history, is about as bad as KiKi not caring about it because she walks by there all the time and never noticed them.

Kivaro

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Fully agree.

RTÉ should not be giving this woman a platform to spew absolute ignorant and downright poisonous nonsense.

Instead they should have assessed her before she went on air and realized this woman has mental health issues and sought appropriate treatment.

Shame on RTÉ and the prime time producers.

To file a complaint against RTE: complaints@rte.ie
Even though you may think it will fall on deaf ears, your complaint will have to be registered so go for it.

Take note that RTÉ is obliged under Section 39 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to ensure that:
(a) all news broadcast is reported and presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of the broadcaster’s own views.

They repeatedly ignore the very first item on the Broadcasting Act, and last night was a 'prime' example. File a complaint if you are angry about this.

tintin67

Does anyone know why Ebun Joseph chose to move to Europe? Why would she put herself through this pain, suffering and obvious unhappiness on a daily basis?

enricoh

tintin67 wrote: »

Does anyone know why Ebun Joseph chose to move to Europe? Why would she put herself through this pain, suffering and obvious unhappiness on a daily basis?

Maybe ucd making up a Mickey mouse for her to be head lecturer of helps, surely 100k a year salary. Appearance fees for rte? - every little helps!

enricoh

ParkRunner wrote: »

This will pass. The Shelbourne should just tell the council they will put the statues back up on a dark night in November by which time there will be another knee jerk social media movement on a different agenda and hardly anyone will notice.

No chance, the permanently outraged bums will have a vigil outside the hotel if they went back up. Maybe November isn't a bad month, a good soaking or two n sod it a Twitter campaign will have to do!

Tony EH

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Imagine in my misguided youth Micheal McDowell was the political bogey man, he's actually one of the best we've had. That women is an absolute pox, a taking head for hire in a made up controversy.

Nah. McDowell's always been an absolute C U Next Tuesday.

But, compared to that Ebun yoke on this matter, he's eminently agreeable.

Watching (more like listening) 'Prime Time' now...and all I can think is Jesus wept...

She's, no doubt, looking to increase her "profile" using this non-issue as a platform to do so. But, bloody hell, she's just coming across as an unreasonable fool.

Del.Monte

One of the likely outcomes of the Shelbourne debacle is that if the statues are replaced they will become a target for physical attacks by the radical wing of the PC brigade.

o1s1n

Del.Monte wrote: »

One of the likely outcomes of the Shelbourne debacle is that if the statues are replaced they will become a target for physical attacks by the radical wing of the PC brigade.

They've stood up to 150 years on the Dublin streets, should be able to handle a few Twitter warriors!

homes_for_all

Far Left and Far Right, united once more in being happy that statues of black people have been taken down.

Yellow_Fern

enricoh wrote: »

Maybe ucd making up a Mickey mouse for her to be head lecturer of helps, surely 100k a year salary. Appearance fees for rte? - every little helps!

Its possible she is running this course on a much more poorly paid temporary position. One of her tweets made it sound like that. We can live in hope. The Sociology dept site is out of date too.

ParkRunner

Whatever goes up there better be an ethically sourced, culturally pleasing, inoffensive, carbon neutral, locally produced gem.