Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

Clarence Boddiker

nullzero wrote: »

I'm looking forward to Ebun Joseph being on the Late Late in a few weeks time telling Ireland how racist it is with Tubridy genuflecting and self flagellating in front of her apologising for what's we've put her through.

I actually hope this happens, it will expose even more people to this nonsense and maybe just maybe they'll kick up a fuss about it or at least voice that their sick of listening to it.
Because as Wibbs said above, this is the thin end of the wedge, and if people just roll over and take it then we ain't seen nothing yet. Who knows where it will end.

We are now seeing when students are marked in state exams their socio economic status will be taken into consideration..we all know what that means. More points for minorities on the basis that they're minorities.

Ebun Joseph claimed on a stream the other day that "Equality breeds inequality" which I suspect means she wants some people (Africans) to be more equal than others in order that they can be equal..in other words they should be privileged.
This sh1t needs to stop.

nullzero

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

I actually hope this happens, it will expose even more people to this nonsense and maybe just maybe they'll kick up a fuss about it or at least voice that their sick of listening to it.
Because as Wibbs said above, this is the thin end of the wedge, and if people just roll over and take it then we ain't seen nothing yet. Who knows where it will end.

I think they should have Twink on with her, really squeeze the last bit of value out of your licence fee.

Rodney Bathgate

Beasty wrote: »

OK, drop it now - if you wish to respond to each other further please don't bother as it's likely to escalate to a situation where formal sanctions will follow

Sorry, I didn’t see this before my last post and edits.

Beasty

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Sorry, I didn’t see this before my last post and edits.

You could easily have deleted it, but I've done that now anyway. No more chances though

Now back on topic - any questions take it to PM

TheBlackPill

I think the state should look for better value from the universities it funds(through fees). If the state threatened to not fund the fees for the UCD social science(with a small s) dept, Dr Joseph would be gone tomorrow.

ChikiChiki

nullzero wrote: »

I'm looking forward to Ebun Joseph being on the Late Late in a few weeks time telling Ireland how racist it is with Tubridy genuflecting and self flagellating in front of her apologising for what's we've put her through.

Had a scroll through that ones twitter. She's a daft auld bint.

SoupMonster

RandomName2 wrote: »

That's it. No mention of race. These two chancers predicate their entire book on this lie, which is so easily disproven it is laughable

Thanks for doing my research for me, I don't even remember that referendum, probably didn't bother.

Mad that it's deconstructed and reconstructed as racist by the queer theorists and straight up lied about.

emanresu

RandomName2 wrote: »

I hope this expert was 'Black' or Ebun will not be pleased! She also stated that .......

He was the same person that Ebun Joseph was referring to when she said on Primetime last night to Michael McDowell "You can't keep saying that they are not slaves, You didn't research it, You're going on the words of a PhD student, He's he's just a PhD student. ..."

If she is a professor, is she also so dismissive of her own students.

The expert is Kyle Leyden. He was introduced by Philip Boucher Hayes as an Art historian and associate lecturer at the University of London, and the Irish Times referred to him as a lecturer in the history of art and architecture at the University of London.

TheCitizen

RandomName2 wrote: »

If you're getting carded you are probably doing something wrong, or at the very least, you could clean up your register.

I haven't been following the back-and-forth between you and Rodney but 'I sleep in a racing car, do you?' argument is as distracting as it is weak. From my posting with you I have found that you have not used evidence based arguments, which is understandable since the evidence doesn't support your claim. You have to hand it to Ebun, her moxy, she just makes sh*t up when the evidence doesn't suit.

I appreciate that you are alone here batting for the opposition which can be a bit overwhelming when you are outnumbered (I have been there), but you've chosen a poor platform to die on in my opinion. I think the argument that I would have taken, had I been you, would have been that a private organization should have the right to decide what it chooses to display on its property. I mean this argument still is leaky as a sieve, but if you're really dedicated and had no ethical qualms, you could allude to offense having been caused by the statues, and then danced around the place if people asked you to name your sources.

Clearly you haven’t been following what I’m saying cos I already said what you said just there that a private organisation like the hotel has the right to remove the statues if they see fit. My argument was that McDowell was chancing his arm that they had no right to do that without seeking planning permission as it’s a listed building, but they weren’t changing the facade of the actual building so I think he was chancing his arm on that. I gave evidence that he has previous for that.

I then agreed that Ebun was not well informed in her argument at all. But basically because I’m not chiming in with the prevailing view on this thread I’m deemed to be batting for the opposition. It’s not that simple at all.

As regards getting carded as you can see I saw it coming and refrained before it happened. If you’re going to pull me up on stuff, try reading my posts first, I’ve already covered what you’re referring to there.

Spiderman0081

nullzero wrote: »

I'm looking forward to Ebun Joseph being on the Late Late in a few weeks time telling Ireland how racist it is with Tubridy genuflecting and self flagellating in front of her apologising for what's we've put her through.

Tubridy should apologize to her, and to everyone else that’s had the unfortunate circumstance of watching his show for more than a minute.

greymister

I've been on Boards for a while, but had to create another account just in fear of being known from posts.
I'm black, living in Ireland for God knows how long now (just for the record I guess).

When I first saw the news article about the statues being removed, I didn't know how to react. The entire situation is farcical. Even my mother and her sister who have gone to the spa a number of times don't agree with its removal.
Regardless of whatever the statue means (slaves or whatnot - I haven't read on their meaning as I just appreciate them for their beauty), it's quite absurd that they should be removed. Erasing history does no favours whatsoever. They actually feel part of the building.

Having said that, racism is a problem here. I feel like I've experienced it a number of times, I'm terrified of speaking now about it in fear of being told Im 'pulling the race card' or 'looking for more favours'.

jackboy

greymister wrote: »

Having said that, racism is a problem here. I feel like I've experienced it a number of times, I'm terrified of speaking now about it in fear of being told Im 'pulling the race card' or 'looking for more favours'.

Racism is a problem everywhere. Ireland has less of a problem with it than most countries.

You need have no fear of speaking out about true racist experiences that you have had. The majority of Irish will back you and condemn it.

nullzero

greymister wrote: »

Having said that, racism is a problem here. I feel like I've experienced it a number of times, I'm terrified of speaking now about it in fear of being told Im 'pulling the race card' or 'looking for more favours'.

Anyone who racially abuses another person is an idiot.

I've worked with one or two right tulips who came out with some horrifically racist nonsense and I had no trouble calling them out on it and in my experience whilst there are a small number of these morons around in Ireland their crap generally isn't tolerated.

It's sh1t that this happens at all, but thankfully we don't have the huge gaping chasms of discrimination present in other jurisdictions.

You shouldn't be afraid to stand up for yourself, there's a difference between genuinely having something to complain about and those who see racism everywhere they look when it doesn't exist. People are on the whole smart enough to know the difference.

Quantum Erasure

Who was it anyway that claimed they put in the complaint to the hotel?

greymister

jackboy wrote: »

Racism is a problem everywhere. Ireland has less of a problem with it than most countries.

From my own experience, I agree.

jackboy wrote: »

You need have no fear of speaking out about true racist experiences that you have had. The majority of Irish will back you and condemn it.

Racism should be called out, I agree. I'm going to get grief for this, but the problem I'm having is that there's some 'requests' or what-not I'm seeing in response to racism that I fully disagree with.
That's not the scope of this thread regardless.

At the end of the day, it would be a true shame for these statues to go. I almost feel sorry for the Shelbourne as they shouldn't have been removed in the first place. I'm fearful that there will be a backlash if they were re-erected.

TheBlackPill

Deleted. Just noted mod warning in opre off topic. Apologies.

greymister

nullzero wrote: »

...there's a difference between genuinely having something to complain about and those who see racism everywhere they look when it doesn't exist. People are on the whole smart enough to know the difference.

People that don't see the difference is what terrifies me. It seems like that's what has happened to some extent in regards to the statues at the hotel, which is deeply worrying.

eddie73

greymister wrote: »

From my own experience, I agree 200%.



Racism should be called out, I agree. I'm going to get grief for this, but the problem I'm having is that there's some 'requests' or what-not I'm seeing in response to racism that I fully disagree with.
That's not the scope of this thread regardless.

At the end of the day, it would be a true shame for these statues to go. I almost feel sorry for the Shelbourne as they shouldn't have been removed in the first place. I'm fearful that there will be a backlash if they were re-erected.

Racism is not as big a problem in Ireland, provided you exclude the traveling community from the argument. If they are included, we are as racist as the Australians are against their own aboriginal people. (in the same ratio).

Wibbs

jackboy wrote: »

Racism is a problem everywhere. Ireland has less of a problem with it than most countries.

I'd agree JB, but for the most part it's because we didn't have to consider it in daily life. Even then your average 1970's person would come out with stuff in normal conversation that would freak most of us out today, but active racism? Not so much. Now there were non Irish people about, I even knew a few, even though very few in number, but at that stage it's a "novelty" of sorts. The problem comes - and this happens anywhere and everywhen where any new and obviously so people show up - if the numbers increase, particularly if it's over a relatively short period of time, that's when the actual racism tends to come out. Because then it's a daily reality. It's why I'm opposed to the current form of the multicultural politic, because this happens time and time again and nobody seems to have cracked the code, but we still keep pushing the same buttons to fix it.

But let's stay in Ireland and racism, or more, the fear and distrust of the Other. Attitudes towards Travellers have gotten worse over the decades, even after the government work, the NGO's, the vast amount of time and finance ploughed into it. And they're as Irish and White as they come.

You need have no fear of speaking out about true racist experiences that you have had. The majority of Irish will back you and condemn it.

+1

Muahahaha

greymister wrote: »

I've been on Boards for a while, but had to create another account just in fear of being known from posts.
I'm black, living in Ireland for God knows how long now (just for the record I guess).

When I first saw the news article about the statues being removed, I didn't know how to react. The entire situation is farcical. Even my mother and her sister who have gone to the spa a number of times don't agree with its removal.
Regardless of whatever the statue means (slaves or whatnot - I haven't read on their meaning as I just appreciate them for their beauty), it's quite absurd that they should be removed. Erasing history does no favours whatsoever. They actually feel part of the building.

Having said that, racism is a problem here. I feel like I've experienced it a number of times, I'm terrified of speaking now about it in fear of being told Im 'pulling the race card' or 'looking for more favours'.

Yep there is definitely a problem with racism here, there has been for several decades really. Jason Sherlock and Paul McGrath two well known mixed race sports stars who have spoken openly about the racism they have faced in Ireland. Its real, it exists and anyone denying it is either arguing in bad faith or are racists themselves.

Gladly our racism problem is not on the same levels as what exists in the US. Thats not to say it doesnt exist, it does. But the vast majority of Irish people have no tolerance for it. This is seen in the minuscule voting numbers for the National Party, a rag tag bunch of far right wingers who hate immigrants and anyone who does not look like them. They will never get a political foothold in Ireland because the vast majority here have an attitude of 'live and let live' and just dont have tolerance for the politics of hate. Still though more needs to be done on racism in Irish society. I've seen with my own eyes a black bus driver being called the N word only a few months ago. Its rare you see prosecutions for it but those kinds of incidents need to become prosecuted using the full strength of the law. A message need to be sent out that there is no place for racism in this society.

Finally what is sad about this whole debacle is that by Dr.Ebun going on about these statues as being slaves (which we now know they are not) and their erection being borne out of racism she is actually undermining the very anti-racism message that she is trying to get across. She is setting the anti racism message backwards, not forwards. She seems to be an expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

RandomName2

eddie73 wrote: »

Racism is not as big a problem in Ireland, provided you exclude the traveling community from the argument. If they are included, we are as racist as the Australians are against their own aboriginal people. (in the same ratio).

Travelers are ethnically Irish. There is no difference between us. It is merely a cultural difference.

Travelers pretend to be a different race as a political position, and people who do not like equality like this fiction.

Travelers have a distinct culture, but it has become indistinguishable from criminality in modern society. The idea of camping in other peoples' land is inherently criminal, as are the ideas of not having to pay tax (or the usual civic charges that citizens must pony up).

Suggesting that there is no difference between Travelers and everyone else is said to be racist, but as demonstrated by the opponents of the statues in front of the Shelbourne, 'racism' means whatever suits the agenda. If saying that all Irish people should be treated equally is a racist thing to do, then I'm the biggest racist that you'll ever meet.

I don't think that Ebun should get privilege for being Black, and I do not think Travelers should get dispensation for pretending to be a different race.

We have issues with people being disadvantaged in this country. We always have. These issues are difficult enough without false racial issues being superimposed.

St. Mary's Park is an example of racial disadvantage suffered by the ethnic minority of Limerickers.

mickdw

TheCitizen wrote: »

He's a loser in the one game that he wanted to win in the most. When he took over the leadership of the PDs they became defunct along with his career as a frontline politician. He's a loser in that game for sure.

Isnt it said all political careers end in failure.

Higgins5473

greymister wrote: »

I've been on Boards for a while, but had to create another account just in fear of being known from posts.
I'm black, living in Ireland for God knows how long now (just for the record I guess).

When I first saw the news article about the statues being removed, I didn't know how to react. The entire situation is farcical. Even my mother and her sister who have gone to the spa a number of times don't agree with its removal.
Regardless of whatever the statue means (slaves or whatnot - I haven't read on their meaning as I just appreciate them for their beauty), it's quite absurd that they should be removed. Erasing history does no favours whatsoever. They actually feel part of the building.

Having said that, racism is a problem here. I feel like I've experienced it a number of times, I'm terrified of speaking now about it in fear of being told Im 'pulling the race card' or 'looking for more favours'.

Joins today, posts this shįte. Any interest in cultural enrichment to prove how worthwhile we are, PM me and we’ll get a bit of tuiseal ginideach gojng back and forth a chara. F*ck off will ye.

Who is supposed to be modding this? This is as good as my make 15 million dollars off that bitcoin email I got earlier.

Tokyo

Higgins5473 wrote: »

Joins today, posts this shįte. Any interest in cultural enrichment to prove how worthwhile we are, PM me and we’ll get a bit of tuiseal ginideach gojng back and forth a chara. F*ck off will ye.

Who is supposed to be modding this? This is as good as my make 15 million dollars off that bitcoin email I got earlier.

Mod here. When you can categorically disprove anything the poster has claimed, you will be welcome to post in this thread again. Until then, consider yourself threadbanned.

colm_mcm

emanresu wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0729/1156195-shelbourne-hotel/
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11219465

"Dr Ebun Joseph said members of the black community could not afford to go to the hotel so perhaps did not know the statues even existed."


How much does it cost now to walk along the streets around St. Stephen's Green?

That’s a bit racist of him, there are plenty black people who could afford to go in there.

Edgware

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd agree JB, but for the most part it's because we didn't have to consider it in daily life. Even then your average 1790's person would come out with stuff in normal conversation that would freak most of us out today, but active racism? Not so much. Now there were non Irish people about, I even knew a few, even though very few in number, but at that stage it's a "novelty" of sorts. The problem comes - and this happens anywhere and everywhen where any new and obviously so people show up - if the numbers increase, particularly if it's over a relatively short period of time, that's when the actual racism tends to come out. Because then it's a daily reality. It's why I'm opposed to the current form of the multicultural politic, because this happens time and time again and nobody seems to have cracked the code, but we still keep pushing the same buttons to fix it.

But let's stay in Ireland and racism, or more, the fear and distrust of the Other. Attitudes towards Travellers have gotten worse over the decades, even after the government work, the NGO's, the vast amount of time and finance ploughed into it. And they're as Irish and White as they come.

+1

I wonder why attitudes towards travellers have got worse. Would it be something to do with their behaviour or is it the fault of the "settled community"?

KevRossi

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s a bit racist of him, there are plenty black people who could afford to go in there.

Pints in the Shelbourne are €6.50-€7.00 or thereabouts. I was last in there in January. Not the cheapest, but not stupidly expensive for Dublin city center either.

She’s being so negative about her own people, she needs to stop playing the victim.

Yellow_Fern

emanresu wrote: »

He was the same person that Ebun Joseph was referring to when she said on Primetime last night to Michael McDowell "You can't keep saying that they are not slaves, You didn't research it, You're going on the words of a PhD student, He's he's just a PhD student. ..."

If she is a professor, is she also so dismissive of her own students.

The expert is Kyle Leyden. He was introduced by Philip Boucher Hayes as an Art historian and associate lecturer at the University of London, and the Irish Times referred to him as a lecturer in the history of art and architecture at the University of London.

The remarkable but was that she was emphatic that only a real expert can decide if they represent slaves,but that didnt stop her insisting a moment later that the statues fetish black bodies. Do we need an expert or not? The Kings Inn has caryatids. Are they fetishing Greek bodies? Isnt fetish also just a way of honoring?

Edgware

KevRossi wrote: »

Pints in the Shelbourne are €6.50-€7.00 or thereabouts. I was last in there in January. Not the cheapest, but not stupidly expensive for Dublin city center either.

She’s being so negative about her own people, she needs to stop playing the victim.

No money in not playing the victim. Ask Pavee Point if you dont believe me

Wibbs

Edgware wrote: »

I wonder why attitudes towards travellers have got worse. Would it be something to do with their behaviour or is it the fault of the "settled community"?

Oh as we stand now the antisocial behaviour of a larger percentage of that demographic is a massive part of it(and the lack of official acknowledgement of it), but how did we get here is the more complex question. Over the last 50+ years Ireland became much less rural and more urban and "gentrified" and they're out of place in modern society, have become a mobile ghetto of their own and that grew a gap of the different that was already there, to the point where it's hard to see how that gap can be closed on both sides. The chances are extremely high we'll see a similar type of trajectory with non White Irish demographics, just like the rest of Europe has. The gap of the different will lead to ghettoisation and marginalisation and the social problems that result.

KevRossi wrote: »

She’s being so negative about her own people, she needs to stop playing the victim.

She does that, she doesn't have a purpose or a spotlight. She's a professional loudhailer for victimhood. Never going to happen.

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The Kings Inn has caryatids. Are they fetishing Greek bodies? Isnt fetish also just a way of honoring?

Nah, it doesn't matter, they're White. Always the "oppressor" never the "oppressed".