Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

Beechwoodspark

Folks I feel we are going in circles

an expert has confirmed

The statues are NOT slaves

There are NO shackles

They are dressed in finery which is associated with Luxury

He has been reported in an article in the Irish times and he was on RTÉ drive time yesterday.

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

No, she was hell bent on being lectured by a man who was lecturing her on race and slavery, a man who has form in conducting a racist campaign in this state in 2004.

Is that in relation to McDowell and the referendum to remove the unintended consequences of the constitutional changes post Good Friday Agreement?


If the claims on this thread are true (and I think that it is fair to ask them of someone who has put themselves out as a public figure - the same as how it was fair to ask Ms. Kisyombe), then it would appear that, had McDowell been on the ball a few years earlier, a certain lady would not have gotten a free ride for the past 18 years on the back of the Irish taxpayer....and then has the nerve to lecture Irish people about exploitation..........

RandomName2

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Folks I feel we are going in circles

an expert has said

The statues are NOT slaves

There are NO shackles

They are dressed in finery which is associated with Luxury

He has been reported in an article in the Irish times and he was on RTÉ drive time yesterday.

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289475613485604864

Signore Fancy Pants

Sigh.

I usually find the type of person that quotes line by line and tediously pulls apart each sentance as an act of desperation. It's akin to schoolyard level bickering.

However, since you assess my views to be egregious, I must respond in kind.

MFPM wrote: »

I was never doing anything else.

I did not suggest your views were unballanced. I also, don't care if they are or not. It was a preface to my own post.

MFPM wrote: »

Whether you're sure or not racism absolutely exists in Ireland, as it does in most societies.

Well thats me told. Thank you.

MFPM wrote: »

The last three words may explain the former ten. I've never witnessed a gangland killing but I know they happen!

I am allowed state my experiences of racism, am I not? It was not an expression of being victim to racism but would include my first hand observations of racism. Which I have experienced few. Is it your position that because I am White...then my opinion does not count?

Actually to be honest, I have been on the receiving end of racial abuse (as a white man) in the past.

MFPM wrote: »

Does it matter, surely any is too much- the fact that you would seek to treat it's seriousness and severity by its quantity is troubling.

I don't quantify levels with seriousness but there would be a correlation. Your inference is unwarranted, keep your insinuations to yourself.

MFPM wrote: »

Again with the 'quantity' and again I ask you does it matter, is any justified?

Its never justified. Ask me again sure.

MFPM wrote: »

Why mention with 'quantity' at all?

Because it's relevant, Dr. Ebun states Ireland is rife with it. I would like to explore the comparison between other locations she has lived in. Is it possible that all her racist experiences are rolled into an "Irish problem"?.

MFPM wrote: »

So, in this 'balanced' discussion you are at worst asserting and at best implying that Dr Joseph, an accredited academic is falsely inflating issues around race for self financial gain, yet you have produced not a shred of evidence to back that assertion. Tell me is this some thing you believe academics who write/campaign on issues do, or is it only academics of colour who make you uncomfortable.

Maybe read this without twisting it, it's very simple. She is being paid (thats the financial gain part) to highlight or to educate people about racism (University lecturer). Her chosen profession is directly tied to highlighting racism in Ireland.

Again, you appear to be insinuating that I am racist. Im not uncomfortable with "academics of colour". Why would I be?

MFPM wrote: »

In a continuation of your 'balanced view', you are now asserting that she lies and subverts data for financial gain...Let's look at facts....

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30997027.html

I said its possible, its undeniably possible.

MFPM wrote: »

Oh the Dr Lucy Michael in that report is 'white' maybe you'll trust her more?

Didnt read the link. I dont base trust on skin colour. For the third time, stop insinuating that I am racist. Your level of debate is through the floor and you should be ashamed of yourself.

MFPM wrote: »

She is not necessarily responsible for your take on her, that's all down to you. It's an absurd suggestion.

Well, she is responsible for how she conducts and presents herself, just like everyone else.

MFPM wrote: »

She is taken seriously because she has a body of work and research on the matter a damn site more than you, I or many of the dog whistling posters in this thread.

That does not mean she is immune to criticism. People with strong views going unchecked is a dangerous thing.

MFPM wrote: »

No, she was hell bent on being lectured by a man who was lecturing her on race and slavery, a man who has form in conducting a racist campaign in this state in 2004.

Take your bias towards McDowell away from the debate. It could have been Bosco there telling her that the statues had nothing to do with racism.

MFPM wrote: »

Not without some evidence and you have provided not a shred and it's an indictment of the moderator of this thread that you are permitted to propagate such egregious innuendo.

Um, there is no need for "evidence" when a question includes the word "potential".

If a Mod feels I have been racist here then I'm sure they will deal with it. Just like I hope they will deal with people insinuating that other people are racist in order to dodge answering questions, MFPM.

TomTomTim

RandomName2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289475613485604864

Imagine if you told her that you don't want any Africans to act as an authority on European history. She'd be screaming racist until she lost her voice.

Tony EH

RandomName2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289475613485604864

This is really getting stupid now.

Who the fuck is she to be saying to anyone that they have "really big shoes to fill in the ‘retelling’ of Irish history"

boetstark

I have only one comment yo make re ebun Joseph.
Ireland is such a horrible racist country , it is so bad she was served ribena in a galway hotel. She felt racially abused and took them to court.
Couldn't make this **** up

Beechwoodspark

It’s ALMOST as if she is constantly on the look out for a big compensation claim???

RandomName2

Tony EH wrote: »

This is really getting stupid now.

Who the fuck is she to be saying to anyone that they have "really big shoes to fill in the ‘retelling’ of Irish history"

The gatekeeper of Irish and African history.

mick087

RandomName2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289475613485604864

I dont think these tweets are doing anything to help stop racism and inequality but in fact contributing to it.

Black white Asian no matter what colour or religon you are until we walk forward togeather things will never change.
I say the tweeters have a good heart but lack any common sence on what real racism and inequality is.

TomTomTim

mick087 wrote: »

I dont think these tweets are doing anything to help stop racism and inequality but in fact contributing to it.

.

"Anti racists" create more racists than any far right group ever could.

RandomName2

mick087 wrote: »

I dont think these tweets are doing anything to help stop racism and inequality but in fact contributing to it.

It's like the far-right protesting in front of the Dail the other week against the Green minister. They were pretending they were doing it because of their concern for child safety. Me arse. They were doing it to get attention, and hey, they were successful in that endeavor.

elli21

entered a thread about Shebourne...imagine my surpise to see thread is about a black woman

Quantum Erasure

They should give them a bit of a polish, upgrade the lighting if it needs it, and reinstate them as soon as possible

(That's all that needs to be said about the statues really, /thread...?)

MFPM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Sigh.

I usually find the type of person that quotes line by line and tediously pulls apart each sentance as an act of desperation. It's akin to schoolyard level bickering.

However, since you assess my views to be egregious, I must respond in kind.



I did not suggest your views were unballanced. I also, don't care if they are or not. It was a preface to my own post.



Well thats me told. Thank you.



I am allowed state my experiences of racism, am I not? It was not an expression of being victim to racism but would include my first hand observations of racism. Which I have experienced few. Is it your position that because I am White...then my opinion does not count?

Actually to be honest, I have been on the receiving end of racial abuse (as a white man) in the past.



I don't quantify levels with seriousness but there would be a correlation. Your inference is unwarranted, keep your insinuations to yourself.



Its never justified. Ask me again sure.



Because it's relevant, Dr. Ebun states Ireland is rife with it. I would like to explore the comparison between other locations she has lived in. Is it possible that all her racist experiences are rolled into an "Irish problem"?.



Maybe read this without twisting it, it's very simple. She is being paid (thats the financial gain part) to highlight or to educate people about racism (University lecturer). Her chosen profession is directly tied to highlighting racism in Ireland.

Again, you appear to be insinuating that I am racist. Im not uncomfortable with "academics of colour". Why would I be?



I said its possible, its undeniably possible.



Didnt read the link. I dont base trust on skin colour. For the third time, stop insinuating that I am racist. Your level of debate is through the floor and you should be ashamed of yourself.



Well, she is responsible for how she conducts and presents herself, just like everyone else.



That does not mean she is immune to criticism. People with strong views going unchecked is a dangerous thing.



Take your bias towards McDowell away from the debate. It could have been Bosco there telling her that the statues had nothing to do with racism.



Um, there is no need for "evidence" when a question includes the word "potential".

If a Mod feels I have been racist here then I'm sure they will deal with it. Just like I hope they will deal with people insinuating that other people are racist in order to dodge answering questions, MFPM.

I usually find the type of person that quotes line by line and tediously pulls apart each sentance as an act of desperation. It's akin to schoolyard level bickering.

I deem it necessary when replying to posts full of ad hominem, lies, implicit racism, innuendo, far from 'schoolyard bickering, it's called holding people to account, I appreciated how uncomfortable that may make you feel.

I did not suggest your views were unballanced.

You clearly impled it by the manner in which you began your post.

It was a preface to my own post.

And said 'balance' never made an appearance beyond your preface as I duly pointed out.

Well thats me told. Thank you.

I note you're occupying that school yard space you wrote about earlier, that said, you're most welcome...

I am allowed state my experiences of racism, am I not?

Absolutely, but they have limited validity as I'm sure you'd concur.

It was not an expression of being victim to racism but would include my first hand observations of racism.

You may think I'm incapable of understanding your post but I assure you I know exactly what you mean which my reply clearly indicated.

Is it your position that because I am White...then my opinion does not count?

Nice try! I would suggest that your daily experience is less valid than that of the daily experience of someone of colour. Tell me who is the more likely to suffer racial abuse walking the length of O'Connell St, you or someone who's Black.

Actually to be honest, I have been on the receiving end of racial abuse (as a white man) in the past.

Have you, well then one would imagine you'd have a better and more sympathetic understanding of the experiences of people of colour in Ireland.

I don't quantify levels with seriousness but there would be a correlation. Your inference is unwarranted, keep your insinuations to yourself.

It's no an insinuation, it's precisely what you were doing.

Here...

To what levels we may never truely know.

and here...

Was it higher in the UK vs Ireland?

Its never justified. Ask me again sure.

Why raise an issue about the 'level' then, once is too much.

Because it's relevant, Dr. Ebun states Ireland is rife with it. I would like to explore the comparison between other locations she has lived in. Is it possible that all her racist experiences are rolled into an "Irish problem"?.

And again...quantity and now you're saying it's relevant, make up your mind! ...I gave you figures to indicate that racism is on the rise and remember those figures only relate to 'reported' figures, it's safe to assume the figures are higher - so Dr Joseph is far more right than wrong on the matter and far more accurate than you, clearly her direct experience in Ireland tallies with the experience of many people of colour as illustrated by the increased number of reports of racism.

The arrogance of you and others here to state that she's lying, she's making it up, all you do by propagating such garbage is to diminish the seriousness of racism and to undermine those who experience it while strengthening those you perpetarte it.

She is being paid (thats the financial gain part) to highlight or to educate people about racism (University lecturer). Her chosen profession is directly tied to highlighting racism in Ireland.

So are you suggesting, Firemen and women go around starting bush fires to get overtime, people in the ESB cut power lines to increase their pay, doctors keep patients sick, etc, etc....seriosuly cop the f'ck on or at least produce one shred of evidence that indicates Dr. Joseph is doing as you suggest and if you have't got any, then have the courage to acknowledge your mistake and withdraw the scurrilous accusation.

Didnt read the link.

You didn't read it because it exposes some of the bullish!t your posting.

For the third time, stop insinuating that I am racist.

I've simply used your own words against you...

Well, she is responsible for how she conducts and presents herself, just like everyone else.

Yes indeed she is but your opinion of her is not her problem.

That does not mean she is immune to criticism.

Never said she was immune to critique at all, no one is but one should critique with facts and evidence not innuendo and hear say.

People with strong views going unchecked is a dangerous thing

'Unchecked' - that's a curious way of putting it, it implies that 'strong views' should automatically be checked as if they are wrong. All views should be debated and interrogated but that doesn't make them wrong.

Take your bias towards McDowell away from the debate.

That's hilarious. A thread full of bias against Dr Joseph and I have to remove my alleged bias about McDowell...get over yourself FFS!

It could have been Bosco there telling her that the statues had nothing to do with racism.

It wasn't though, it was a patronising, arrogant lecturing know it all who led a targeted campaign against people of colour in 2004.

Um, there is no need for "evidence" when a question includes the word "potential".

OK, let's test that, tell you what ...re post your original post under your own name and address, I will send it to Dr Joseph and see if she would like to take some action against you....

If a Mod feels I have been racist here then I'm sure they will deal with it.

It's the innuendo and the accusation that Dr Joseph is (1) a liar and (2) is deliberately overstating issues around racism in Ireland to further her career and make financial gain from doing so that the mods should be looking at.

Just like I hope they will deal with people insinuating that other people are racist in order to dodge answering questions, MFPM.

If you can point to one question I have dodged, I'll gladly make amends, if you can't then I'd request you do the courtesy of removing that lie.

DeadHand

Ebun Joseph publicly claims that “white people” (whoever they are)including most white Irish people are inherently racist. A racist idea.

Ebun Joeseph publicly claims that the “Black community” (whoever they are) can’t afford to stay at the opulent Shelbourne hotel. A racist idea.

Ebun Joseph publicly dismisses the evidence-based, expert opinion of an academic on the basis of his skin colour. Racism in action.

The jury is in: Joseph has confirmed herself as an overt racist. She’s been given the rope and has hanged herself thoroughly.

Only one question remains: will RTE, and the rest of the Irish media establishment, have the integrity to distance themselves from this hate-mongering grifter?

MFPM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Absolutely. She is a liar and a racist. I have shown this clearly by looking at her work.

Her work is full of purple prose, but that's not what makes it academically of no value. What makes it less than valueless is that it built upon a rickety shell of lies in order to confirm a set of biases. She has made a living out of this. This is all objectively the case.

Okay, now adopting her voice:

But you don't deserve to comment on this. You are White. Therefore you should not be talking about this. What are you a white savior, using your privilege to talk about this subject of racism as if you know what you are talking about? I bet you say you are not a racist. This makes you a racist. You are White therefore you are racist. When you can admit that we can move forward to a place where you can be anti-racist. Until we do that, you will be engaging in the big lie that Whites perpetuate. This lie has gone on since the birth of our country, for when we got independence we became white and the jack boot was placed by the Irish on the necks of Blacks.




But less so than the art historian whose view she discounted because he was just a PhD candidate who was white.



Grist to her mill. Gives her the attention she wants to sell her book.

What was racist about saying that people are only automatically are entitled to citizenship if one of their parents is a citizen? Literally nothing about race there.



How dare he speak! Cancel this man or woman immediately! By lord he should not be allowed to speak!

MFPM, not even TheCitizen tried to defend that racist Ebun. You are like an alt-righter tying their star to Gemma O'Doherty.

How dare he speak! Cancel this man or woman immediately! By lord he should not be allowed to speak!

You should note I have replied at length and in some detail to the individual, I didn't suggest that he should speak, I requested that when making accusations against some one he should really provide some evidence and thus far he has failed to do so.

Given you're labelling someone a liar might I suggest you don't engage in lies yourself.

sabat

MFPM wrote: »

Thought so, you're just bull****ting!

Even if I was just making it up, (which I am not-you could go through some of my old posts to see how I know), it is a fact that it's extremely unlikely for her to have arrived here in any other way. IE: The proportion of Nigerian women who came to Ireland in that way outnumbers those who didn't by 99%+, hence the scenario of her being a legitimate immigrant is the scarcely believable story, whereas my version is rational and overwhelmingly likely to be true.

Kivaro

elli21 wrote: »

entered a thread about Shebourne...imagine my surpise to see thread is about a black woman

Yes it is.
Statue .............of a black ................ woman.
But we sense your outrage.

Signore Fancy Pants

MFPM wrote: »

If you can point to one question I have dodged, I'll gladly make amends, if you can't then I'd request you do the courtesy of removing that lie.

Would you not agree that there is potential for Dr. Joseph to fabricate stories to support her position?

Your earlier "answer" was a deflection.

Quantum Erasure

MFPM wrote: »

You should note I have replied at length and in some detail to the individual, I didn't suggest that he should speak, I requested that when making accusations against some one he should really provide some evidence and thus far he has failed to do so.

Given you're labelling someone a liar might I suggest you don't engage in lies yourself.

twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1211667279353729024

Wibbs

RandomName2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289475613485604864

She is a bloody mental case and not the brightest bulb in the box and whoever awarded her a doctorate needs their heads read. No wonder certain sections of the arts in academia have become an up their own arses laughing stock.

Yer Wan twittering earlier.
Everyone is an expert on African history &culture! Smh! It’s extremely careless of a PhD student to make categorical claims & base his words on assumptions! Has he been to Africa? Is he an Egyptologist? Did he translate the hieroglyphs on their garments?

Did he translate the hieroglyphs on their garments.... Jesus Christ, I just don't know where to go with that level of stupidity. Egyptian hieroglyphs were only legible to the modern mind by the mid 19th century and when used in art are pretty much guaranteed to be pure artistic invention to look like the real deal. Never mind the statues are late 19th century French, not Egyptian, modern or ancient and their style would have looked way out of place in that part of the world. They're a neoclassical 19th century ready up of "Egyptian" and about as historically accurate and Egyptian as the Bangles suggesting we should all walk like one.

Then she comes out with this howler...

Maybe that’s a question you could have explored before presenting expertise on Africa, it’s Cultural practices and who is or isn’t an enslaved person. You’re schooling in London? you could very easily have found a Prof of African history. Your write up wasn’t a suggestion.


His reply nails it.

Thank you so much for your reply: I really am so grateful for your insight. I wonder could you just help me in understanding how I might have framed a request to a Prof of African history to assist me in translating a label in a French 19thC metalwork catalogue?

The scary part is how many people thank her tweets and believe her utter and complete nonsense.

Kivaro

When the new hate speech bill gets passed, they will have to lock up the entire country due to the "perceived" racism experienced by Ebun Joseph.
All that is required with the new bill is for someone to perceive racism. Ebun Joseph has pretty much called the whole country racist, so off to jail we all go.
And Ribena will never be allowed to be sold or drank in Ireland again.

Rockbeast2

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1211667279353729024

"I actually worried if they'd give us "clean" veg in our salad/meal."

FFS She's warped.

Wibbs

MFPM wrote: »

It wasn't though, it was a patronising, arrogant lecturing know it all who led a targeted campaign against people of colour in 2004.

That was supported and ratified by an overwhelming majority of the electorate of this country. That's what the Irish people wanted and got. Pity it was about ten years too late as the previous legislation was out of step with every single other European nation.

Wibbs

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

They should give them a bit of a polish, upgrade the lighting if it needs it, and reinstate them as soon as possible

(That's all that needs to be said about the statues really, /thread...?)

I'd be surprised if they will Q, not after the hysterical rantings of Joseph. Sadly too many in the West are running scared of this stuff and there are also too many nutters who would go equally hysterical and deface them if they were reinstated. Like I said earlier it's a damn pity we don't follow the examples of East Asian cultures and have self confidence and ignore these nutters.

And some wonder why I firmly believe "multiculturalism" is a busted flush? Sadly we're already through the looking glass in Ireland after the pregnancy passport influx of the late 90's. And the same nonsense will go down here like it has in every other European nation that has run this idiotic experiment. Many of them had no choice because they were imperial nations. We did and didn't keep our eye on the ball.

This guy on Primetime nailed the problem:

Ten of Swords

Final reminder of the admin note in the op, thread is about the removal of the statues from the Shelbourne Hotel. Currently it seems to be centered on Dr Joseph's background, lets get back on topic

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod: Thread has gone wildly off topic. Can we please get back to discussing the removal of historic statues from the Shelbourne Hotel and the actual content of the Prime Time discussion, rather than your personal feelings about Dr Ebun Joseph.

Signore Fancy Pants

Has there been any information regarding the reinstallation of the sculptures, now that clarity has been provided by experts?

jackboy

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Has there been any information regarding the reinstallation of the sculptures, now that clarity has been provided by experts?

The reality is that can’t happen. They are gone for good.

Wibbs

jackboy wrote: »

The reality is that can’t happen. They are gone for good.

All too sadly I strongly suspect this is the case. Truly a sad day and the thin end of this idiotic wedge. Watch as you see more like her come out of the woodwork with "qualifications" in subjects were words like "intersectionality" are mentioned ad nauseam. AKA educated beyond their capacity muppets with an axe to grind and by god they'll grind it. The Irish psyche being well... Irish and working on the "be grand" principle will likely ignore, even passively go along with it. Up to a point. And we'll wonder how we got to the same point as the UK, Germany, France, Italy etc.