Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

MFPM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Would you not agree that there is potential for Dr. Joseph to fabricate stories to support her position?

Your earlier "answer" was a deflection.

No, I don't think there is that potential.

MFPM

Wibbs wrote: »

That was supported and ratified by an overwhelming majority of the electorate of this country. That's what the Irish people wanted and got. Pity it was about ten years too late as the previous legislation was out of step with every single other European nation.

So what, the majority of Israelis supported bombing the f@ck out of the West bank, doesn't make it right!

Pity it was about ten years too

Yeah, given your attitudes I'm not surprised you'd think that.

MFPM

Wibbs wrote: »

All too sadly I strongly suspect this is the case. Truly a sad day and the thin end of this idiotic wedge. Watch as you see more like her come out of the woodwork with "qualifications" in subjects were words like "intersectionality" are mentioned ad nauseam. AKA educated beyond their capacity muppets with an axe to grind and by god they'll grind it. The Irish psyche being well... Irish and working on the "be grand" principle will likely ignore, even passively go along with it. Up to a point. And we'll wonder how we got to the same point as the UK, Germany, France, Italy etc.

Setting yourself up as the judge and jury on qualifications now are we?

gailforecast

jackboy wrote: »

The reality is that can’t happen. They are gone for good.

How so? Not being smart, but why not? Other than Dr. Ribena kicking up a minor fuss, what’s stopping them?

RandomName2

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Final reminder of the admin note in the op, thread is about the removal of the statues from the Shelbourne Hotel. Currently it seems to be centered on Dr Joseph's background, lets get back on topic

Would you mind extending this to all discussion of Dr Akpoveta? She is either on or off the table. I personally consider her to be so offensive and bat-sh*t insane as to not actually add to the debate on Shelbourne. However she has become center-stage due to her media appearances on the matter, which is why she keeps cropping up.

Could you put a moratorium on all discussion featuring her? It would not only increase the level of conversation, but would also have the benefit of oxygen starvation. However you cannot criticize what she is saying without talking about her background. If she is not discussed at all this doesn't crop up though.

MFPM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Would you mind extending this to all discussion of Dr Akpoveta? She is either on or off the table. I personally consider her to be so offensive and bat-sh*t insane as to not actually add to the debate on Shelbourne. However she has become center-stage due to her media appearances on the matter, which is why she keeps cropping up.

Could you put a moratorium on all discussion featuring her? It would not only increase the level of conversation, but would also have the benefit of oxygen starvation. However you cannot criticize what she is saying without talking about her background. If she is not discussed at all this doesn't crop up though.

However she has become center-stage due to her media appearances on the matter, which is why she keeps cropping up.

Nonsesne, she has become the 'centre' of the debate because of the inherent prejudice of many of those posting, look at the language including your own.

Wibbs

MFPM wrote: »

So what, the majority of Israelis supported bombing the f@ck out of the West bank, doesn't make it right!

Yeah, given your attitudes I'm not surprised you'd think that.

Welcome to the democratic process and the will of the people. Unless you want to run for autocrat of the Most holy Order of the Right On party? I'm endlessly amused by both the hard right and hard left's disgust at the electorate when they vote against their politic, while concomitantly feeling so confident in the "will of the people" that they deign to speak for them given the opportunity.

MFPM wrote: »

Setting yourself up as the judge and jury on qualifications now are we?

I wish someone would. When a so called qualified individual doesn't seem to understand even basic *trigger warning* facts and yet is so hellbent on repeating them then yeah I'll judge it alright.

MFPM wrote: »

Nonsesne, she has become the 'centre' of the debate because of the inherent prejudice of many of those posting, look at the language including your own.

Yes, such a shrinking violet she is. rarely seen and heard around these matters.

jackboy

gailforecast wrote: »

How so? Not being smart, but why not? Other than Dr. Ribena kicking up a minor fuss, what’s stopping them?

If they were put back up the hotel would be castigated as racist, the owners would be pursued by a relentless mob. The attack would go way way beyond the one who’s name we shall not speak.

Signore Fancy Pants

MFPM wrote: »

No, I don't think there is that potential.

Of course there is potential, to state otherwise is a nonsensical fallacy. On that note, it's best if we disengage, Adieu.

RandomName2

MFPM wrote: »

So what, the majority of Israelis supported bombing the f@ck out of the West bank, doesn't make it right!

And the majority of people voted for Michael D. Higgins for president, that doesn't make it right! Wait.. yes it does. That's how democracies work. This change in the law made Ireland like all the other countries in Europe (it only wasn't like that because of the Troubles, which I'm sure you are aware, was not something shared by mainland Europe).

What was the point of this, other than your shíte innuendo than Wibbs is racist?

What has this to do with the Shelbourne?

MFPM wrote: »

Nonsesne, she has become the 'centre' of the debate because of the inherent prejudice of many of those posting, look at the language including your own.

I think that a bigot like her should not be discussed. She has no place in civilized discussion. She is entitled to have her view, but that view should be predominantly ignored. I don't think she should have been on PrimeTime, and the radio, and the other appearances that she has made to go on about the Shelbourne statues. She has become the de facto boss of all minority views on the matter, and says that if you do not agree with her, you are a racist. Like you she's not a huge fan of democracy.

Notwithstanding her racist views she is bad at arguing. In relation to the statues she has flailed around from saying that they are slaves, to them being fetishistic, to the fact that black people should not be idiolized, or black people should not be in front of a building that is only used by Whites. She did no research on the statues. I do not believe she knew of their existence until last week. She relies, as ever, on saying that Whites should have no say on a matter and that she, as a Nigerian, should have a say over French art based on Egyptian design, installed on an Irish hotel.

And you are pretending to agree with her and getting on your high horse, because talking about the specifics of the matter actually make matters more difficult for you. You take after her in that respect. The irony is that, if you are Caucasian, and male, she would not be in favor of you discussing this at all (as she feels that Caucasian males have historically been too powerful).

Signore Fancy Pants

jackboy wrote: »

The reality is that can’t happen. They are gone for good.

That's a shame. It's never good when ill-informed social justice idiots make a tangible negative impact.

Knee jerk reaction by the hotel to an non-issue.

Will be interesting to see what's next. Im sure some Twitterati will be on the hunt for glory to see what else they can misappropriate to racism and get that taken away too.

RandomName2

gailforecast wrote: »

How so? Not being smart, but why not? Other than Dr. Ribena kicking up a minor fuss, what’s stopping them?

It was actually illegal to take them down, but people will be afraid of being attacked on the matter. Calling someone a racist is a powerful weapon, although its sting gets less every time it is misapplied.

Ciaran Cuffe initially queried the statues being take down

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1288187696209436673

And quickly had to issue an apology for doing so.

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1288434190741123072

That's the chilling effect in action.

splinter65

Couple of questions, thanks.
I’m lost, I’ll admit.
Was there a specific complaint about these statues or who brought the statues and the possible “problem”to the attention of the hotel owners?
To whom do I complain about something I see that offends me in some way that I feel should be removed? I assume it’s the owner/s? If my demands that the offending item be removed are not met then who do I turn to?
If I decide to hang a swastika in my sitting room window for the weekend can i now expect a visit from AGS before someone f**ks a rock through it?
If I get the rock before the AGS visit then can I still call the AGS about the rock?
I’m 55 and had the impression all my life that if something offended me that that was my problem to deal with, so this is a strange new world to deal with.
Will there be some kind of a court process whereby a judge/jury decides who had a legitimate complaint about being offended and who is not?

jackboy

splinter65 wrote: »

Will there be some kind of a court process whereby a judge/jury decides who had a legitimate complaint about being offended and who is not?

No, if you feel that you are offended it is a legitimate complaint, once your opinion complies with the pervading political climate of the day.

Beasty

RandomName2 wrote: »

Would you mind extending this to all discussion of Dr Akpoveta? She is either on or off the table. I personally consider her to be so offensive and bat-sh*t insane as to not actually add to the debate on Shelbourne. However she has become center-stage due to her media appearances on the matter, which is why she keeps cropping up.

Could you put a moratorium on all discussion featuring her? It would not only increase the level of conversation, but would also have the benefit of oxygen starvation. However you cannot criticize what she is saying without talking about her background. If she is not discussed at all this doesn't crop up though.

Do not discuss mod instructions in-thread - take it to PM

RandomName2

splinter65 wrote: »

Couple of questions, thanks.
I’m lost, I’ll admit.
Was there a specific complaint about these statues or who brought the statues and the possible “problem”to the attention of the hotel owners?

No, the hotel owners, who are an American consortium, seemed to go on a solo-run with this.

splinter65 wrote: »

To whom do I complain about something I see that offends me in some way that I feel should be removed? I assume it’s the owner/s? If my demands that the offending item be removed are not met then who do I turn to?

The short answer is the owner.

If you are not a minority, the long answer is noone. No media outlet would take you seriously.

splinter65 wrote: »

Will there be some kind of a court process whereby a judge/jury decides who had a legitimate complaint about being offended and who is not?

In the case in question there's the planning process, which was actually circumvented by the hotel owners. As a listed building they should have applied for permission to change the front, but they did not do so.

Wibbs

RandomName2 wrote: »

It was actually illegal to take them down, but people will be afraid of being attacked on the matter. Calling someone a racist is a powerful weapon, although its sting gets less every time it is misapplied.

Ciaran Cuffe initially queried the statues being take down

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1288187696209436673

And quickly had to issue an apology for doing so.

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1288434190741123072

That's the chilling effect in action.

Unreal. One tweet after his balls evaporated nailed it in my humble:

Bullied into submission by the virtuous mob. Your professional judgement and respect for planning law suppressed after a lash of the crozier from our modern day liberal Bishops. No different to 1950s Ireland. Same sh1t. Different mob in charge.

They're so bloody right.

Though this one was a close runner:

Off to Karnak I go to protest the statue of Ramses II.

Of course the usual twitterati right on brigade of white suburban women in "authentic" Peruvian knitwear and men with interesting beards showed just how servile to their idiocy and ignorance they are and how shrill they are at enforcing it.

SEPT 23 1989

It's amazing put a log cabin in your own garden and they will be down on you like a ton of bricks

Butcher statues at a listed building on a Main Street of the capital city and silence

Dangerous times we live in

Mad_maxx

TomTomTim wrote: »

"Anti racists" create more racists than any far right group ever could.

ever expanding industry

$$$$$$$

Strumms

What if they suggest a compromise... that they put up statues of Irish olympic medalists.... toasting the success of irish people on an international stage.. in irelands capital city.... or would the idea be classed as racist as the demographic of person who made these contributions be pretty much all Irish... either way... statues might get errected... carruth, sonia, etc only for a complaint to be put forward as to why there are no black people depicted, why ? So you cannot win... so no matter what you try to do youll be castigated and labeled as..... until we fùcking turn over the city to them and let them deciede how we live.. what we enjoy.... wait... looks like thats happening already..

Mad_maxx

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

She has a loyal group of followers on twitter who swallow every word she comes out with and back her up no matter what she says, mostly upper middle class folks who want to be seen to be right on and woke.

Anyone who challenges her is immediately blocked.

Sure its the same in television interviews, she is let ramble on no matter how stupid the guff she comes out with is.

just noticed im blocked from reading her on twitter despite never having even replied to a single tweet she has posted

Rockbeast2

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

It's amazing put a log cabin in your own garden and they will be down on you like a ton of bricks

Butcher statues at a listed building on a Main Street of the capital city and silence

Dangerous times we live in

Start any works on the front/facade of your listed suburban Georgian house and see how long it takes for a couple of lads with notebooks and questions to knock on your door!

The building and its facade are not for the owners to alter at their whim or leisure. They are guardians of it and that brings responsibilities of which they knew full well when purchasing.

How dare they act unilaterally like this! Dublin and its citizens will be around long after they've sold out to another chain.

Mad_maxx

KaneToad wrote: »

On RTE 1 Today programme on Friday a contributor, Alan Farrell TD, made a comment about law to a female contributor (either Colette Brown or Jennifer Whitmore...but I think it was Whitmore). She was in disagreement with Farrell throughout the debate. Rather than counter argue with Farrell, she said "thanks for mansplaining law to me". She thought she'd landed a stinging blow. In reality she'd just shown herself to be sexist.

i didnt hear it but i just know it was Colette Browne , its the kind of dopey , predictable line from the 2020 feminist handbook , she would smugly trot out

insufferable mediocrity who is never off the air

no doubt she sided with the view of " DR " ebun joseph ?

Quantum Erasure

Strumms wrote: »

What if they suggest a compromise... that they put up statues of Irish olympic medalists.... toasting the success of irish people on an international stage.. in irelands capital city...

3 gold and one bronze Michelle Smith's....

Tipperary animal lover

Mad_maxx wrote: »

just noticed im blocked from reading her on twitter despite never having even replied to a single tweet she has posted

Got blocked myself today, badge of honour you might say

Mad_maxx

eddie73 wrote: »

Racism is not as big a problem in Ireland, provided you exclude the traveling community from the argument. If they are included, we are as racist as the Australians are against their own aboriginal people. (in the same ratio).

that arguement would have held no value as recent as 2015 yet the very same dynamic existed between travellers and the rest of us prior to them getting " ethnic recognition "

the point being , being able to officially reach of the race card changes almost nothing when it comes to certain situations in terms of solutions , the likes of pavee point can shout " racist " but it solves nothing

Mad_maxx

RandomName2 wrote: »

Travelers are ethnically Irish. There is no difference between us. It is merely a cultural difference.

Travelers pretend to be a different race as a political position, and people who do not like equality like this fiction.

Travelers have a distinct culture, but it has become indistinguishable from criminality in modern society. The idea of camping in other peoples' land is inherently criminal, as are the ideas of not having to pay tax (or the usual civic charges that citizens must pony up).

Suggesting that there is no difference between Travelers and everyone else is said to be racist, but as demonstrated by the opponents of the statues in front of the Shelbourne, 'racism' means whatever suits the agenda. If saying that all Irish people should be treated equally is a racist thing to do, then I'm the biggest racist that you'll ever meet.

I don't think that Ebun should get privilege for being Black, and I do not think Travelers should get dispensation for pretending to be a different race.

We have issues with people being disadvantaged in this country. We always have. These issues are difficult enough without false racial issues being superimposed.

St. Mary's Park is an example of racial disadvantage suffered by the ethnic minority of Limerickers.

St Mary,s Park would put any afrikaner gated community in cape town circa 1977 to shame with its whiteness , even the romanians wont chance their arm living on that part of " D,island "

Rockbeast2

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Got blocked myself today, badge of honour you might say

#MeToo No interaction with her, athough I did like a great response to her a while back so she might be checking those for people to block!

Mad_maxx

Edgware wrote: »

I wonder why attitudes towards travellers have got worse. Would it be something to do with their behaviour or is it the fault of the "settled community"?

depends who you ask

RTE and the IRISH TIMES or the average middle ireland john and josephine tax payer

Galwayguy35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

just noticed im blocked from reading her on twitter despite never having even replied to a single tweet she has posted

Just had a look there, same old rubbish but she is getting called out on it a bit more since she decided to weigh in on the statues at the Shelbourne.