2020 World Snooker Championship

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

He beats them all at peak...

The man was too food everywhere......

what would this mean if you had wrote it in English?

Brian?

ultrapercy wrote: »

what would this mean if you had wrote it in English?

John Higgins loves pies?

ArnoldJRimmer

ultrapercy wrote: »

They sure do, most over rated sports person ever.

All about context, Alex Higgins was the exact opposite to almost everyone in how he played the game at the time, and it was a breath of fresh air for the game. Still only two world titles though. People can point to his addiction issues, but he would not necessarily have won more titles if he was sober, we just don't know. One of the legends of the game? Yes. One of the greatest players of all time? I don't think he is

Mysterypunter

ultrapercy wrote: »

They sure do, most over rated sports person ever.

It is the influence he had on the game, Alex introduced a new style of play, he was a fearless potter, everyone knows he was a lunatic, but he changed the game, 2 World titles as well, all during a hectic lifestyle. He was not overrated at all, he was admired for his style of play, a nasty little bollox as well, and a bully boy, but everyone has problems, he just had more than most. I get the same arguments when I mention Jay Jay Okocha as one of my all time favourite footballers, who is he, what did he win, did he play for Barcelona, he must have been much good. Watch him and see how good he was. If Alex never won anything, he would still have drawn fans to the game. The rivalry with Steve Davis was another reason. Sport is not about results all the time, Brazil didn't win the 1982 World Cup, but we're fantastic to watch. Alex was also fantastic to watch, as was Jimmy White, who was never world champion.

sligeach

Rothko wrote: »

Funny how he made a 147 at the Crucible in 2012 then.

Hendry wasn't playing full-time then, he didn't like the traveling and some of the changes that were happening within the game. He had more of an ambassadorial role. He had to qualify and was in China I think a day or two before he made the 147 on the opening day of the Championship. My presiding memory of that was him constantly having to tuck his shirt in, he had a bit of a belly. He'd already decided privately that this was his last appearance, his game was gone. He showed glimpses of it, but he couldn't hold it together for a sustained period.

You know, people go on about how if Ronnie could have more titles if not for this or that. Well, it's the same for Hendry, it wasn’t that players were better than him, they were far from it. Stephen was a shell of the player he once was and it was all in his head. It must have been soul destroying, not being able to reach those heights anymore and at such a young age.

The Nal

sligeach wrote: »

It must have been soul destroying, not being able to reach those heights anymore and at such a young age.

Its amazing that he made it to world finals and was world number one with the yips.

walshb

Rothko wrote: »

Funny how he made a 147 at the Crucible in 2012 then.

Yes, and he said he was struggling so hard to......

Said it may have looked easy watching, but he felt it so difficult to..

walshb

Mysterypunter wrote: »

It is the influence he had on the game, Alex introduced a new style of play, he was a fearless potter, everyone knows he was a lunatic, but he changed the game, 2 World titles as well, all during a hectic lifestyle. He was not overrated at all, he was admired for his style of play, a nasty little bollox as well, and a bully boy, but everyone has problems, he just had more than most. I get the same arguments when I mention Jay Jay Okocha as one of my all time favourite footballers, who is he, what did he win, did he play for Barcelona, he must have been much good. Watch him and see how good he was. If Alex never won anything, he would still have drawn fans to the game. The rivalry with Steve Davis was another reason. Sport is not about results all the time, Brazil didn't win the 1982 World Cup, but we're fantastic to watch. Alex was also fantastic to watch, as was Jimmy White, who was never world champion.

Yes, but he was overrated in the sense of being placed as being in the absolute elite all time...

He was great to watch, flamboyant and all that, but not a truly great overall player like other were...

ultrapercy

Mysterypunter wrote: »

It is the influence he had on the game, Alex introduced a new style of play, he was a fearless potter, everyone knows he was a lunatic, but he changed the game, 2 World titles as well, all during a hectic lifestyle. He was not overrated at all, he was admired for his style of play, a nasty little bollox as well, and a bully boy, but everyone has problems, he just had more than most. I get the same arguments when I mention Jay Jay Okocha as one of my all time favourite footballers, who is he, what did he win, did he play for Barcelona, he must have been much good. Watch him and see how good he was. If Alex never won anything, he would still have drawn fans to the game. The rivalry with Steve Davis was another reason. Sport is not about results all the time, Brazil didn't win the 1982 World Cup, but we're fantastic to watch. Alex was also fantastic to watch, as was Jimmy White, who was never world champion.

I may have been a bit harsh in my comment alright especially when you consider he showed talent as a jockey and as a runner. I heard he ran 1.54 for 800 in school. I just think he wouldn't make it into the top 16 these days. I'm comparing eras though which is something I normally rage against.

Girly Gal

Davis and Hendry won almost all their major titles in a 10 year period and were utterly dominant for about a decade each, but, once their dominance was over they kinda faded away, yes, they both had good runs, but, never looked like winning the major titles again.
Once Hendry came along and started dominating, Davis never really challenged and only won one major title in the mid nineties. Hendry was the same, didn't win a major title after 1999, and the likes of Higgins, Williams and O Sullivan began to dominate. Even Higgins major wins are in a 13/14 year span although he has remained a major contender without winning. Williams was over a 5 year span until his shock world title a few years back.

O Sullivan has been winning major titles since 1993, that's an amazing length of time to be winning major titles and for most of that time has been regarded as a major contender when he plays. I don't think we'll see a player like him again, but, I think we'll see players again who may dominate for 5 or maybe 10 years and then fade away.
O Sullivan has his faults especially off the table and has struggled for consistency over the years, but, at his absolute peak no player in history is close and is an absolute joy to watch when in full flight. He wasn't at his best this year and still won; I think if he is to win it again he will need to play at a higher level.
Regarding who is the greatest that's subjective and not clearcut; O Sullivan and Hendry are the two greatest players very close between them for different reasons, Hendry for his consistent high level and domination in the nighties and O Sullivan for his longevity and natural talent. I'd lean towards O Sullivan as he can do things with ease other players can't. I'd also have Davis and John Higgins close behind the other two.

Hard to compare different time periods, and pockets were supposed to be; well according to the knowledgeable types, less forgiving back in the nineteen eighties, even though come the nineties onwards they were according to some, less like 'buckets' than what they were supposed to be in the eighties.

I thought this myself too, but I'll believe the folks that follow the game closely, and concede that they're probably easier in the O'Sullivan era. Some of the balls that were potted in the black pockets this year eg, where maybe 50% of them end up, seemed to have no right to go in. As well as this, the tables are better quality nowadays, and better 'technical support' re rads etc to keep the cloth in a better playing condition.

But, all that said Ronnie has a great safety game, and can do things with a cueball - and do it consistently - like very few others could or can, apart from maybe Jimmy and Trump, and he's won the most ranking titles, plus the most centuries & maximum breaks.

If Ronnie was around 40 years ago; well he wasn't (not as a professional snooker player anyway ), so no point going there really.

He has to be the Greatest, and the best of all time, on all known metrics save 1 World Championship. I don't know either about his time 'in the wilderness' when he may have won even more if his 'head was on right'. Had he stayed playing at the level he was at, and not gone off the rails, maybe he could have won plenty, and retired for good out of boredom.

Quite possible that he would not have achieved the record for most ranking titles in that case.

And then there's the competition faced by Davis, Hendry & O'Sullivan. Davis definitely had it the easiest imo, and Ronnie most likely had it the toughest out of the three greats.

But, there appears to be a regression to the mean. The youngsters coming through are not up to much, so that just leaves the players that have had success over the last 10 yrs or so, and longer.

Higgins is not the player he was 5 yrs ago, Mark Williams can no longer do it regularly either. Hawkins and Bingham will probably be solid but not good enough while they're still playing. Mark Allen's game doesn't appear to be suited by long matches. Shaun Murphy can't be depended on. Kyren Wilson is punching above his weight regarding earnings and success.

Give Selby a mention too.. His safety and waiting to pounce tactics worked for a few years, but with players at his level or better, it's just an arduous gameplan for him, and must surely take it out of him physically and emotionally.

Lastly, a shout out for Ding. Just for the sake of it really - an afterthought really :P A great player, with a great life, appears to be very happy, and a legend in his own Country. Getting to the business end of comps will be good enough for him, and doing well in his home Country when playing there. I wouldn't be surprised if he never makes another Sheffield Semi Final.

That really only leaves Judd and Robertson. Robertson too is hard to figure out, with all his walking around the table stuff. But, I feel he can come good again possibly. Judd is currently the only real danger, and out of all the others mentioned, is perhaps the only one that could win 2,3 or 4 before Ronnie retires.

Now that Ronnie's so close; and his rubbish 'I don't care' and 'I'm retiring' talk is just that - rubbish, to 7 and 8 titles, I feel he'll get to the 8 mark. That in my opinion is his target and he knows he's within grabbing distance. He might even go for 9 in case he thinks Judd might mop up all around him after Ron quits, as Ronnie rightfully doesn't rate the new crop. I think he'll be happy with 8 though, and will at least 'settle' for seven. Can't see him doing a Jimmy or Ken; the best those two can do is to qualify for comps, and if they get past Round 1 then that's as far as they get.

As a Ronnie fan, I hope he can get the seventh anyway. Anything after that be a massive bonus.

Paying a bit of homage to his roots, "One more thing" , as another famous Italian descendant (in TV land) was famous for saying - darts references. Yes, darts. A mediocre, from a talent requirement, but entertaining sport nonetheless. As rubbish as I am I've hit a few ton 80's (supposedly equivalent to a 'century' in snooker - yeah right :pac:) from time to time. Nowadays, he seems to make more Golf and Tennis comparisons. Two games that require skill and endurance.

So, yeah, for me, the talent is still there, and the mindset appears (who can tell with Ronnie) spot on. I'm not getting too carried away though - if he played the way he did in spots for a lot of the Championship, he most likely would not have succeeded. But, that has to be countered by the fact that most of the other players played a lot of rubbish as well.

He's done it all too, not just counting snooker. He has his running, though difficult to see him winning any marathons of note. Had the partying when he was younger, done the reality TV stuff with his mate Matt driving around America hustling pool. Also has done the punditry and commentating on Eurosport, which he's very good and entertaining at. Written a few books as well, I think. He might even keep the Eurosport part up, if he doesn't bother entering some comps, or gets knocked out early in best of 7s or 9s and 11s (lesser competitions that he probably can't really be bothered getting up for). So, what's left for him only snooker, gardening :P and golf (if he even plays that game).

The only thing that could possibly be seen to be an issue regarding his mood and motivation is his 'Footballer's Wife' :pac: As long as she knows what time it is, and washes the dishes, and can refrain from wrecking Ron's head then the man is in a great place. He's surely one of the fittest and healthiest chaps on tour, so that's also in his favour.

I think Ronnie fans have plenty to look forward to, for hopefully another 3 years at least, to come.

Go on The Rocket!

Girly Gal

It's hard to know if O Sullivan will win the world title again, he'll certainly have to play better to do so.
Like any sport it's difficult to compare eras, as equipment e.g. table, cloth, cues, even the balls improve in quality, also players learn from the previous generations. That doesn't necessarily mean the standard of sport is constantly improving, in fact there's a question mark about the standard of the younger generation in alot of sports at the moment not just snooker e.g. tennis, soccer, athletics.
Hendry, O Sullivan and Higgins can be compared as they played each other often, although Hendry was probably past his best by the time the other two fully matured. The same with Davis, he was past his best when Hendry came along.
Judd Tump is the only one of the younger generation who has the talent to win a few more world titles and he's in his thirties now, Selby might grind another one out and Robertson might get another too, the rest are much of a muchness and we'll probably see a few more solid pros win titles in the next 10 years as Stuart Bingham did a few years back.

gormdubhgorm

White, Foulds and Andy Goldstein debated the best snooker player of all time BEFORE the world championship.

AllForIt

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve been following and playing snooker for over 30 years and I still don’t understand this “best match player” tag. Surely the better match player wins the most matches.

Match play is about one's strategy, rather than one's pure potting/break building ability.

walshb

Best way to explain is this. Ronnie is the Roger Federer of snooker..

Nobody does it better...

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Best way to explain is this. Ronnie is the Roger Federer of snooker..

Nobody does it better...

That's only because tennis is a bigger sport.

Many, I assume, including me would say:

"Federer is the Ronnie O'Sullivan of tennis"

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

That's only because tennis is a bigger sport.

Many, I assume, including me would say:

"Federer is the Ronnie O'Sullivan of tennis"

Yes. Could do that.

The original for these comparisons was always the “Muhammad Ali”of x, y and z!

Brian?

AllForIt wrote: »

Match play is about one's strategy, rather than one's pure potting/break building ability.

I still don’t get that. You play safe until you have a chance to pot, that’s how you win frames. If your break is coming to an end, you look at putting a ball safe.

What more strategy is there than that?

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I still don’t get that. You play safe until you have a chance to pot, that’s how you win frames. If your break is coming to an end, you look at putting a ball safe.

What more strategy is there than that?

There's plenty of strategy. It's playing the table and the opponent. Like if your opponent's under the cosh, and there's an easy route to the baulk cushion; a good tactician might leave the cueball well short, almost forcing his opponent into going for a red that he's not confident enough, or cueing well enough to make.

The Nal

Brian? wrote: »

I still don’t get that. You play safe until you have a chance to pot, that’s how you win frames. If your break is coming to an end, you look at putting a ball safe.

What more strategy is there than that?

Thats the way it should be.

But if you're Mark Selby its opponent is "getting into a stride, time to wreck the table and play slow scrappy risk free safety for 15 minutes".

walshb

Real good match player can spot the weaknesses in the opponents and adapt the game to exploit them..

gormdubhgorm

walshb wrote: »

Real good match player can spot the weaknesses in the opponents and adapt the game to exploit them..

Hendry was way better at this than O'Sullivan imo. Ronnie just plays and relies heavily on natural talent - has improved on safety over the years. But his fall back is always playing instinctively.

Only thing that finished Hendry was "the yips". Davis was also good at sensing weakness. But did not score heavy - different era in fairness. Hendry and Davis snooker machines calculating opponent and the shot that would get the win. Hendry had the aggression and long game which made him fearless.

I would have John Higgins after that is kinda a mix of Hendry/Davis hangs on in a match does not fold easy. Tiredness is the only thing that stops him. Maybe needs off table fitness? Probably too late now!

Williams needs to be more consistent to get into the real top bracket. Selby only really a long match merchant, not half as good in shorter ones. Can't adapt as well as others.

The rest of them: Trump, Murphy, White, Ding all have an intangible "flakiness" about them. Always feel they could be 'got at'. Not single minded and ruthless.

I suppose Doherty deserves a mention. For 4-5 years he was near top of his game. Had a ruthless streak. Only thing that finished him was his long game and concentration with age.

Amazed no Chinese fella with natural talent AND a ruthless manner - has not emerged. Given the sheer numbers and the way the Chinese government seek out talent.

Girly Gal

Always thought Ding would win a world championship especially when he came on the scene first, but, doesn't look that way now, Tump looked unbeatable when he won last year and looked like he had developed a ruthlessness, but, he was really struggling for form at the world championship this year, I still think he'll win one or two more.
Was amazed when I checked that White only won one UK and one Masters, would have thought he had won a few of each, he really did crumble under pressure, out of 11 major finals he only won 2, and not all those defeats were by Davis and Hendry.
One player who would probably have gone on to be one of the greats was Paul Hunter, he died at such a young age, yet he still had won the Masters 3 times at a time when, Hendry, O Sullivan, Higgins and Williams were at or close to their prime

Arthur Daley

If rounding out top 10/12 honourable mention goes to Ray Reardon.
First World title af 37 at the dawn of the modern era. Otherwise how many more might he have won.
Won a ranking event and was world number 1 at 50. Reached 1985 semi final at the Crucible at 52.
I think one of the greatest times I saw Ronnie play was the 2004 Worlds when Ray was helping him out.

taytobreath

Anyone know of any examples of players with the yips on YouTube, I've been searching here but nothing comes up.

loyatemu

Girly Gal wrote: »

Always thought Ding would win a world championship especially when he came on the scene first, but, doesn't look that way now

he's still capable of it but seems to feel the pressure at the Crucible. He must be the best player not to have won it, certainly since Jimmy.

fran38

taytobreath wrote: »

Anyone know of any examples of players with the yips on YouTube, I've been searching here but nothing comes up.

Davis overcutting the final black in the 85 final could be construed as choking maybe. White missing that black v Hendry in the 94 final another one.
Both saw the winning line but fluffed their lines.

gormdubhgorm

taytobreath wrote: »

Anyone know of any examples of players with the yips on YouTube, I've been searching here but nothing comes up.

Hendry mentioned it happened him around 2000 in his book.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1301359/stephen-hendry-health-latest-the-yips-symptoms-snooker

"In around 2000 I became aware of a recurring problem of the ‘tightness’ around my cueing action, which somehow stops me believing that I can play the shot - even shots I could previously play with my eyes shut."



Patsy Fagan got them after car accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patsy_Fagan

"From late 1978, following a car accident, Fagan started to experience a psychological block when using the rest. This version of the "yips" caused him to spend a long time cueing and then usually miscueing; because of this, he would play left-handed rather than using the rest where possible."

I can't find clips either.

The Nal

fran38 wrote: »

Davis overcutting the final black in the 85 final could be construed as choking maybe. White missing that black v Hendry in the 94 final another one.
Both saw the winning line but fluffed their lines.

Davis we can put down to tiredness. It was well after midnight and the longest match ever.

Jimmy just bottled it. A routine black off the spot. He totally bottled it in 1992 aswell. 14-8 ahead and lost. Totally fell apart.

fran38

Is the Seniors Tour run by the WPBSA? If so, how come Michaela Tabb is refereeing? Wasn't there a dispute some years ago between her and the governing body?

AngryLoner

Anybody able to find the Seniors on TV in Ireland?

fran38

AngryLoner wrote: »

Anybody able to find the Seniors on TV in Ireland?

Its on the red button if u have sky

zuutroy

fran38 wrote: »

Is the Seniors Tour run by the WPBSA? If so, how come Michaela Tabb is refereeing? Wasn't there a dispute some years ago between her and the governing body?

I think it's just a Jason Francis promotion with no ties to any body.

fran38

zuutroy wrote: »

I think it's just a Jason Francis promotion with no ties to any body.

Dennis Taylor just said on commentary that the winner of this gets into the Champion of Champions in November. Think thats under the WPBSA so it would be unusual for a winner of a non affiliated tour securing a place on a WPBSA run comp. No big deal, im just curious.

AngryLoner

fran38 wrote: »

Its on the red button if u have sky

I’m on SKY but it’s not giving me the red button option... maybe UK only?

I know i could always watch it online but I don’t want to... I wanna watch it on my telly

zuutroy

Try channel 981?

fran38

AngryLoner wrote: »

I’m on SKY but it’s not giving me the red button option... maybe UK only?

I know i could always watch it online but I don’t want to... I wanna watch it on my telly

Not UK only. I hav it and i know others who are watchin it as well

iLikeWaffles

AngryLoner wrote: »

Anybody able to find the Seniors on TV in Ireland?

load of gee, looking forward to watching it as well!

The Nal

BBC red button for Sky.

Page 2 here.

https://ekayi.com/sky-channel-codes-all-you-need/

Mysterypunter

Can't get it on the BBC app, not working, Close, but Doherty edged it 4-3

AngryLoner

The Nal wrote: »

BBC red button for Sky.

Page 2 here.

https://ekayi.com/sky-channel-codes-all-you-need/

Thanks mate, i never knew you could add the red button via other channels. Too tip!

DelBoy Trotter

AngryLoner wrote: »

Thanks mate, i never knew you could add the red button via other channels. Too tip!

You can add a lot of stations....UTV 2, 3 and 4 for example (which can be decent for movies from time to time). You obviously can't record, pause, rewind etc., and there is no guide for the manually tuned stations

fran38

Turgid affair currently. The graphics showed Leo Fernandez is from Limerick. He's not from Limerick but his mam is from St Marys Park. His dad Xavier RIP is Portugese. His brother Mario, an ex pro himself moved back to Limerick some years ago.
Leo played an exhibition in the St Michaels club in the city in the late 90s. Made two 135s back to back.

The Nal

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

You can add a lot of stations....UTV 2, 3 and 4 for example (which can be decent for movies from time to time). You obviously can't record, pause, rewind etc., and there is no guide for the manually tuned stations

ITV HD!

AngryLoner

Jimmy white and joe Johnson just kicked off : happy days

gilly1910

forumdedum wrote: »

Only heard recently he refused to finish a 147. Attention seeking I would say. Not fair on paying audience.

I agree, never as great as Hendry. He had nerves of steel. Incredible consistency.

It's one thing though that I can never understand is the fact that Hendry never won another World Title after the age of 30. To me he is the greatest player of all time, with Ronnie easily the most talented player of all time, but it still beggars belief that Hendry never won another World Title after 1999, particularly when you see Ronnie as good as ever at the age of 44. Hendry was an absolute Rolls Royce of a snooker player with nerves of steel, so in a sport where mental toughness is key, it beggars belief that he was pretty much a spent force at the ripe old age of 30.

Brian?

gilly1910 wrote: »

It's one thing though that I can never understand is the fact that Hendry never won another World Title after the age of 30. To me he is the greatest player of all time, with Ronnie easily the most talented player of all time, but it still beggars belief that Hendry never won another World Title after 1999, particularly when you see Ronnie as good as ever at the age of 44. Hendry was an absolute Rolls Royce of a snooker player with nerves of steel, so in a sport where mental toughness is key, it beggars belief that he was pretty much a spent force at the ripe old age of 30.

He had some serious competition in fairness. Ronnie, Higgins and Williams being the main ones.

The Nal

gilly1910 wrote: »

It's one thing though that I can never understand is the fact that Hendry never won another World Title after the age of 30.

He lost to Ebdon in the final by a bad shot here and there.

He got the yips in 2000 which ruined his game. Consistency and confidence out the window.

gilly1910

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Hendry was way better at this than O'Sullivan imo. Ronnie just plays and relies heavily on natural talent - has improved on safety over the years. But his fall back is always playing instinctively.

Only thing that finished Hendry was "the yips". Davis was also good at sensing weakness. But did not score heavy - different era in fairness. Hendry and Davis snooker machines calculating opponent and the shot that would get the win. Hendry had the aggression and long game which made him fearless.

I would have John Higgins after that is kinda a mix of Hendry/Davis hangs on in a match does not fold easy. Tiredness is the only thing that stops him. Maybe needs off table fitness? Probably too late now!

Williams needs to be more consistent to get into the real top bracket. Selby only really a long match merchant, not half as good in shorter ones. Can't adapt as well as others.

The rest of them: Trump, Murphy, White, Ding all have an intangible "flakiness" about them. Always feel they could be 'got at'. Not single minded and ruthless.

I suppose Doherty deserves a mention. For 4-5 years he was near top of his game. Had a ruthless streak. Only thing that finished him was his long game and concentration with age.

Amazed no Chinese fella with natural talent AND a ruthless manner - has not emerged. Given the sheer numbers and the way the Chinese government seek out talent.

Our Ken was another who I always thought should have won more, and definitely should have won at least one more World Championship, particularly when you saw the likes of Graham Dott and Peter Ebdon also winning one World Championship. Ken was an excellent tactician, who was very good in every aspect of the game, and who would never lie down. However I always thought that in tight games you would rarely be confident that Ken would prevail as he was too cautious, a case in point been the 2003 Final against Mark Williams at 16-16 where William's bravado won him the last two frames.

zuutroy

Hendry vs Bond is very entertaining.