Post primary return to schools roadmap

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

What about the rest of EU? They are going ahead with school openings?

Presumably they are, and politically that might be a significant question. Didn't Varadker comment recently that we didn't want to be the only country not to seen to not reopen schools? No mention of the infections rate or where we were are likely to be in terms of that. Just an eye on what other countries were at. So chances are they'll want to plough ahead and maybe shrug their shoulders in a month's time if they have to close them again.

However, regarding other countries, the famous Denmark is currently in a worse state than us in terms of infections' growth figure. And there was some delusional commentary about schools' reopening a few months back about some countries which ignored that the schools appeared to have had plenty of space, and held outdoor classes in good weather - options not available to us.

Also bigger countries have the option of regional lockdowns and can cover vast areas in doing so. Notwithstanding the Laois-Offaly-Kildare thing recently it is something we have not tried yet. It might not be as palatable in Ireland as the place of far most significant population density is the capital. Not all countries are as lop-sided population-wise and economically as we have become. That might be an option with schools but Dr Glynn did comment on the number of counties which have recorded infections very recently - every county I think.

Other countries are also a bit more advanced in their counter-Covid strategies (which might in itself have contributed to resurges in fairness) - as in, for example, Italy, has taken the option of closing night-clubs. We haven't even gotten around to opening ordinary pubs never mind night-clubs. So they have low-hanging fruit which might make a difference especially politically before turning to schools' closure.

The one thing that might prompt the government to not reopen schools just yet might be if they feel closure in a month's time is inevitable. Because if closure in a month's time is inevitable then it means that the trajectory of the virus is not controllable in the short-term and the amount of people on the move in schools' reopening would considerably worsen the situation.

Politically it'd probably be easier too to stand in front of a mic with an earnest "we're all in this together" face on you and say that we have to defer opening, rather than standing in front of a mic next month looking like a plank when it was obvious you disregarded what by that stage might appear to have been clear and inevitable to those commentators whose specialist subject is hindsight.

Rosita

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

she hasn't taken a public command of her brief

I do agree with this. although I absolutely believe too that this is much more significant in terms of how she herself is judged politically rather than actually mattering to decisions around schools. No doubt all of that is collective and will be largely driven by NPHET. But yeah, her predecessor was much more visible, though it's only fair to say that that visibility wasn't always a roaring success either.

But yeah you see it even in schools. It'll be the people who are standing nearest to the Principal at various functions will make the promotional breakthroughs so visibility matters. But I think it matters more to her career and reputation than it does to the nitty-gritty of opening schools.

rainbowtrout

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

She might have been a 'pro teacher' but she hasn't taken a public command of her brief, that is all we will judge her on. She has shown zero leadership in her role at a time when it is very much needed.
Personally think her interview in the Indo has led to her being removed from any situation where her old fashioned ways cannot be twisted. The minister for education should be very much front and centre at this time

Totally agree. The biggest thing that is going to happen in this country in the next two weeks is the reopening of schools. And a week later leaving cert results are to be released. We should be seeing her in the news.

At this stage I’m still seeing Simon Harris making more comments on the health service than Stephen Donnelly and he’s not even health minister anymore. I’m not a FG fan by any means but FF aren’t even at the races at the moment.

wirelessdude01

rainbowtrout wrote: »

At this stage I’m still seeing Simon Harris making more comments on the health service than Stephen Donnelly and he’s not even health minister anymore. I’m not a FG fan by any means but FF aren’t even at the races at the moment.

Harris still seems to think his brief is health. Constantly tweeting about it.

Rosita

[QUOTE=rainbowtrout;114331930

At this stage I’m still seeing Simon Harris making more comments on the health service than Stephen Donnelly and he’s not even health minister anymore. I’m not a FG fan by any means but FF aren’t even at the races at the moment.[/QUOTE]


Harris commented more on Education than the Minister for Education when he was Minister for Health too. Can't help himself. Sure didn't he tell us the LCs would be back during May right after the Education minister announced the revised plans for July/August. I'd say the solo runs of himself and Varadker on social media are very difficult to deal with for their government partners. You have to plough through all the policy quicksand while they are constantly visible and 'straight talking'.

doc_17

The blended learning plan, if one exists, needs to be released before it is needed to allow planning and training. As well as purchasing of equipment, it can even be got.

Bobtheman

I'd bet with anybody schools will open in sep but perhaps a delay here or there. People keep banging on about one bad interview Foley made. Big deal.
She should not have done the interview until she read the brief. Give her six months.
As to Leo wrote him off years ago. Health services and housing. Not doing enough.
He makes the odd honest statement big deal. So he is socially liberal big deal. Having transgender toilets or gay marriage does not house a family or get Kids speech therapists before it's too late .

combat14

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

alroley

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

This is true.

rainbowtrout

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

Ya they would in towns where there are multiple schools. It won’t make a blind bit of difference when there’s no social distancing on the buses anyway

RealJohn

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

There are two secondary schools on the road my school is on, and at least two primary schools. Most of the students come on Dublin Bus. Do you think they're going to put on ten buses (which would be a conservative estimate - at least one of the schools is big) several times from 7:30 to 9:00 every weekday morning?
There's no way students won't be mixing on buses, in Dublin anyway. I can't imagine they have either of the bus capacity or driver capacity to do it any other way.

Rosita

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

I'd be surprised if there's a town in Ireland with more than one second level school where this doesn't happen.

And as was mentioned by Real John the situation in Dublin is uncontrollable.

Bananaleaf

What is the current number allowed at an indoor gathering does anyone know?

wirelessdude01

Bananaleaf wrote: »

What is the current number allowed at an indoor gathering does anyone know?

Isn't it still 50?

combat14

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Isn't it still 50?

wow is it only still 50 there will be hundreds if not over a thousand co- mingling soon inside some schools around the country ..

Bananaleaf

combat14 wrote: »

wow is it only still 50 there will be hundreds if not over a thousand co- mingling soon inside some schools around the country ..

See, this is what I'm wondering. My school has approx 1200 students who will be in year group-specific pods.

That's a pod of 200. In one specific zone of the school - not spread out over the entire building

mirrorwall14

Bananaleaf wrote: »

See, this is what I'm wondering. My school has approx 1200 students who will be in year group-specific pods.

That's a pod of 200. In one specific zone of the school - not spread out over the entire building

We have ‘pods’ of 150 odd too. Mostly area specific but then they are travelling for options and science. It’s gas considering the 50 limit at gatherings.

I multiplied out there and even with a cap of 24 I will be seeing 250 students a week. Likely closer to 300 since I have substitution to do too. All of those are close contacts. As in I will have spent 40 minutes minimum in their company

solerina

pandoraj09 wrote: »

Does that mean no microwave etc??? That's very harsh. Thank God I have my own fridge and kettle in my office.

Yes, apparently we will have a socially distanced desk (same as students desks) in staff room where we have to work and eat, w ended to being very thing from home so flasks for coffee/tea/ soup etc....�� we only have a 30min lunch break so we can’t go out unless we happen to have a class off before of after lunch.

Bananaleaf

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have ‘pods’ of 150 odd too. Mostly area specific but then they are travelling for options and science. It’s gas considering the 50 limit at gatherings.

I multiplied out there and even with a cap of 24 I will be seeing 250 students a week. Likely closer to 300 since I have substitution to do too. All of those are close contacts. As in I will have spent 40 minutes minimum in their company

I literally only thought of this today. This is madness. Has anyone in the Government even addressed this? How are they justifying it?

solerina

RealJohn wrote: »

On this, does anyone know if the rumour (which I’ve always propagated, without any actual confirmation of its accuracy) that only science teachers are allowed/insured to take classes in science labs (and presumably the same applies or doesn’t in other practical subjects) is true?
Are non-science teachers allowed to take classes in science labs?
If not, where does it say that?

I know we used the ASTI maximum is 24 for science to good effect when required !! We have never had to take more than 24 as a result. Same goes for use of the lab.

unklerosco

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have ‘pods’ of 150 odd too. Mostly area specific but then they are travelling for options and science. It’s gas considering the 50 limit at gatherings.

I multiplied out there and even with a cap of 24 I will be seeing 250 students a week. Likely closer to 300 since I have substitution to do too. All of those are close contacts. As in I will have spent 40 minutes minimum in their company

Is that not similar to someone working in a restaurant/coffee shop?

rainbowtrout

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I literally only thought of this today. This is madness. Has anyone in the Government even addressed this? How are they justifying it?

They're not. They don't care. The fact that they released this plan originally and said people staff/students don't have to wear masks in school said it all. Masks mandatory in any other business establishment and fines/possible jail term for non-compliance.

Schools are the exception to all of this. Open the schools to open the economy. The rules don't apply to us. If the pubs were reopened in the morning you would have more chance of being socially distanced having your pint than you will in a school in two weeks time.

solerina

We can only have 200 people in Croke Park at the moment but schools can open with full numbers ????? There is currently no logic to what is being planned

r93kaey5p2izun

unklerosco wrote: »

Is that not similar to someone working in a restaurant/coffee shop?

No restaurant or coffee shop should have 25 people within a <50m2 space for 40 mins at a time unless breaking the regulations.

Bananaleaf

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They're not. They don't care. The fact that they released this plan originally and said people staff/students don't have to wear masks in school said it all. Masks mandatory in any other business establishment and fines/possible jail term for non-compliance.

Schools are the exception to all of this. Open the schools to open the economy. The rules don't apply to us. If the pubs were reopened in the morning you would have more chance of being socially distanced having your pint than you will in a school in two weeks time.

But, I mean, is there any way of getting the question asked of them somehow? Is there any way of getting someone up there to come up with an explanation to the public, even if it is a bull one? I don't think they should be given the opportunity to later feign ignorance on an issue like this. They know exactly what they are at

mirrorwall14

Ophelia Modern Firehouse wrote: »

No restaurant or coffee shop should have 25 people within a <50m2 space for 40 mins at a time unless breaking the regulations.

And I’m in a LOKdown county. So there’s no indoor dining at all right now. My son is back to primary school in 8 working days with a full class group....

rainbowtrout

Bananaleaf wrote: »

But, I mean, is there any way of getting the question asked of them somehow? Is there any way of getting someone up there to come up with an explanation to the public, even if it is a bull one? I don't think they should be given the opportunity to later feign ignorance on an issue like this. They know exactly what they are at

Like any politicians they will just dodge the question. The general public have been questioning the insanity of the guidelines in the last couple of weeks. Even the most anti-teacher members of the public can see that all national guidelines have been thrown out the window when it comes to schools.

Unfortunately it will go one of two ways. Cases will continue to rise in the next couple of weeks and NPHET will ask for a delay to reopening and to start with online teaching again, or, we will reopen as planned and by the third week of September there will be schools with clusters and they will be shut on a case by case basis, unless there is an avalanche of cases requiring us to go back to March style school shutdown.

Government know at this stage that the worst is over in terms of the nursing homes, as cold as it may sound, anyone who was fragile, at risk, immuno-compromised and was at risk of dying has already died. They also know from the data that the vast majority of people under 60 who get it will only have mild symptoms and survive.

Effectively they are doing a cost benefit analysis similar to safety recalls in cars. Car manufacturers have done (controversial) cost benefit analysis in the past when a fault has been discovered in their cars. Is it cheaper to recall all the cars and fix them or to say nothing and for the small number of cars that develop that fault, repair as needed and pay out compensation on claims for repairs, accidents, injuries and death.

This isn't much different. Opening schools gets more than 1 million children back into the education system and gets parents back to work. The vast, vast majority of those that develop covid in that group as a result of increased social contact will not develop serious health problems/die from covid. Hence we move from the South Korean model of tackling covid to the Swedish one.

In the last 16 days (Aug 1 - Aug 16) there have been 11 covid deaths here. In the same period in April (Apr 1 - Apr 16) when cases peaked there were 401. We were also at the height of lockdown at that stage.....

Presumably the government are taking the calculated risk option.

Bobtheman

I agree that most studies of young children say they should be ok. I emphasis young. I have yet to see studies of 16-18 year olds.
However children can spread to adults?
So are teachers expendable?!

khalessi

Bobtheman wrote: »

I agree that most studies of young children say they should be ok. I emphasis young. I have yet to see studies of 16-18 year olds.
However children can spread to adults?
So are teachers expendable?!

THere are recent studies showing that 0-5 year olds carry as much Coronavirus in their noses and more than adults and could spread it as well as adults.
Also the South Korean study which was acknowledged by Dr Mike Ryan of Who when chatting to Sarah McINerney last week when he said that 10-12 years olds and teens can spread it as easily as adults and so have to take responsibility for their behaviour and not spreading it.

CHildren can spread it to adults and because they are asymptomatic it is a huge concern as children if they get it will not be as sick as adults but can spread it as easily as adults.

Bobtheman

So bottom line what protections are teachers getting,? Adults