Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Idbatterim

The Belly wrote: »

If your retired on a decent pension, Public sector or a person who doesnt want to work none of this is that important financially in fact its actually a benefit financially in a lot of ways.

For everyone else, this will be 2008 on steriods with no end in sight. Its going to shatter confidence and create a constant state of fear two things that are very bad for any economy.

The really scary thing from reading posts is people are just accepting all this as the new norm and do not see the consequences in the not to distant future.

Very good point. Youd have to assume that its going to create a double blow, that when combimed , could be devastating... i dont think its acceptable for politicians to say, how could it have been predicted, its been predicted on this thread by many of us ffs! Basically using rte as their " whatt should we do" " "rte gauges the public mood etc " outrageous stuff...

This crisis is an irosh politicians nightmare, very soon. Thrtll be firced to make decisions, and they hate doing that here. This sitting on the fence, praying for a vaccine to be delivered next week before bed, wont wash much longer!

You would then wonder... like the last bust, ireland could be seen as not totally, but largely responsible for its own economic faith. Taking a gamble on shutting down a lot of the economy, to now not even stop death, just rising cases.

average_runner

walus wrote: »

Give it another 6 months and Sweden will look the smartest of the bunch...

On what evidence? Immunity was never proven ?

average_runner

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Where are those Wexford cases? Are they coming from Dubs in restaurants, and food pubs and on the beaches? No - they are in halting sites. Known clusters which may also be classified as community transmissions.

I never said where they came from, I just said an increase in cases in Wexford and if could increase more if they didn't self ioslate

polesheep

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe, but its impossible to say right now, their health care system is also probably far more robust than our own

Seriously, what has the health system got to do with it? The outcome for Covid-19 patients in Irish hospitals is actually very good. Most of our deaths occurred in nursing/care homes. Those residents never got to hospital.

Leroy42

The Belly wrote: »

The really scary thing from reading posts is people are just accepting all this as the new norm and do not see the consequences in the not to distant future.

But luckily you see it all!

Of course people can see the consequences, nobody thinks this is all for free.

But people understand that consequences of simply ignoring the problem. If we open up too much, or too soon, the price to be paid will be many multiples of what we are seeing. We have already been through one lockdown, people do not want to go back to that. Sure, having the pubs remain closed is a PITA, but having the pubs closed as well as being limited to 2km, no sports, can't visit anybody etc is far worse.

Melbourne has recently had to reintroduce restrictions. US tried the stay open approach and they are now paying the price, and likely will be for the rest of the year.

The problem with this virus is how quickly it gets out of control, and no one is aware of the problem until it has already taken hold. And how long it takes to get it back under control, and the restrictions and price of that.

So people are very much aware that this is hurting us big time, but what is the alternative? It is easy to say that pubs etc should be reopened, but what if that leads to a jump in numbers? The damage will be done?

Will you take the responsibility for those that die? Will you pay the price of the economic cost of a second lockdown? It is easy to say 'open it up' when it isn't you making the decisions of having to bear responsibility.

polesheep

average_runner wrote: »

I never said where they came from, I just said an increase in cases in Wexford and if could increase more if they didn't self ioslate

They naturally self isolate, which is why it spreads so fast through that particular community.

The Belly

Idbatterim wrote: »

Very good point. Youd have to assume that its going to create a double blow, that when combimed , could be devastating... i dont think its acceptable for politicians to say, how could it have been predicted, its been predicted on this thread by many of us ffs! Basically using rte as their " whatt should we do" " "rte gauges the public mood etc " outrageous stuff...

This crisis is an irosh politicians nightmare, very soon. Thrtll be firced to make decisions, and they hate doing that here. This sitting on the fence, praying for a vaccine to be delivered next week before bed, wont wash much longer!

Between the 3 groups mentioned above that makes up nearly a third of all voters around 900k voters

Turnout was 63% of the 3m registered to vote or or 1.8m

Its not hard to see how change is unlikely to happen when those that are in a relatively safe financial situation also vote especially as more people become reliant on the state to get by.

polesheep

Leroy42 wrote: »

But luckily you see it all!

Of course people can see the consequences, nobody thinks this is all for free.

But people understand that consequences of simply ignoring the problem. If we open up too much, or too soon, the price to be paid will be many multiples of what we are seeing. We have already been through one lockdown, people do not want to go back to that. Sure, having the pubs remain closed is a PITA, but having the pubs closed as well as being limited to 2km, no sports, can't visit anybody etc is far worse.

Melbourne has recently had to reintroduce restrictions. US tried the stay open approach and they are now paying the price, and likely will be for the rest of the year.

The problem with this virus is how quickly it gets out of control, and no one is aware of the problem until it has already taken hold. And how long it takes to get it back under control, and the restrictions and price of that.

So people are very much aware that this is hurting us big time, but what is the alternative? It is easy to say that pubs etc should be reopened, but what if that leads to a jump in numbers? The damage will be done?

Will you take the responsibility for those that die? Will you pay the price of the economic cost of a second lockdown? It is easy to say 'open it up' when it isn't you making the decisions of having to bear responsibility.

Will you?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/diminished-cancer-services-and-fears-of-130pc-increase-in-waiting-lists-the-covid-disaster-health-chiefs-want-to-keep-secret-39427508.html

Wanderer78

polesheep wrote: »

Seriously, what has the health system got to do with it? The outcome for Covid-19 patients in Irish hospitals is actually very good. Most of our deaths occurred in nursing/care homes. Those residents never got to hospital.

Swedish public services are known to be far superior to most eu countries, as they have invested heavily in them for many years, via high taxation, and by the use of investment funds etc, this lead them to have a much higher confidence level than most of us, hence their approach to dealing with the virus. they maybe right for themselves, but our approach may also have been the right approach for ourselves, i.e. our health care system as a whole probably wouldnt have been able to withstand the pressure of a swedish approach.

Leroy42

polesheep wrote: »

Will you?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/diminished-cancer-services-and-fears-of-130pc-increase-in-waiting-lists-the-covid-disaster-health-chiefs-want-to-keep-secret-39427508.html

You want me to take responsibility for that? I didn't make the decision, but neither do I think that those that did, did so based on some conspiracy to wreck the economy of kill people, or force people to wear masks.

Certainly those decisions should be questioned. They should answer as to why these vital services couldn't have been continued, some way found to deal with the realities of both cancer and Covid.

But one does not negate the other. Lack of cancer care, or any other issue, is a lack of planning and process change by those in charge, it does not mean that the Covid decisions were not correct.

Idbatterim

Leroy42 wrote: »

But luckily you see it all!

Of course people can see the consequences, nobody thinks this is all for free.

But people understand that consequences of simply ignoring the problem. If we open up too much, or too soon, the price to be paid will be many multiples of what we are seeing. We have already been through one lockdown, people do not want to go back to that. Sure, having the pubs remain closed is a PITA, but having the pubs closed as well as being limited to 2km, no sports, can't visit anybody etc is far worse.

Melbourne has recently had to reintroduce restrictions. US tried the stay open approach and they are now paying the price, and likely will be for the rest of the year.

The problem with this virus is how quickly it gets out of control, and no one is aware of the problem until it has already taken hold. And how long it takes to get it back under control, and the restrictions and price of that.

So people are very much aware that this is hurting us big time, but what is the alternative? It is easy to say that pubs etc should be reopened, but what if that leads to a jump in numbers? The damage will be done?

Will you take the responsibility for those that die? Will you pay the price of the economic cost of a second lockdown? It is easy to say 'open it up' when it isn't you making the decisions of having to bear responsibility.

But you could argue that far more suffering is beimg caused by the situations totality. Rather than just this " its all about covid" focus. It woukd take balls though as a politician here to say that, the entire nedumia and thus public narrative is " fear, death, r number" etc

polesheep

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Swedish public services are known to be far superior to most eu countries, as they have invested heavily in them for many years, via high taxation, and by the use of investment funds etc, this lead them to have a much higher confidence level than most of us, hence their approach to dealing with the virus. they maybe right for themselves, but our approach may also have been the right approach for ourselves, i.e. our health care system as a whole probably wouldnt have been able to withstand the pressure of a swedish approach.

That's probably all true but it doesn't take from the fact that the vast majority of deaths were not due to a failure of the health service's ability to treat. The ability to move possibly positive patients into homes is another matter.

polesheep

Leroy42 wrote: »

You want me to take responsibility for that? I didn't make the decision, but neither do I think that those that did, did so based on some conspiracy to wreck the economy of kill people, or force people to wear masks.

Certainly those decisions should be questioned. They should answer as to why these vital services couldn't have been continued, some way found to deal with the realities of both cancer and Covid.

But one does not negate the other. Lack of cancer care, or any other issue, is a lack of planning and process change by those in charge, it does not mean that the Covid decisions were not correct.

The current lack of cancer care is a direct result of Covid-19 decisions.

average_runner

polesheep wrote: »

They naturally self isolate, which is why it spreads so fast through that particular community.

Not entirely true. They spend alot of their time in the community also.

Wanderer78

polesheep wrote: »

That's probably all true but it doesn't take from the fact that the vast majority of deaths were not due to a failure of the health service's ability to treat. The ability to move possibly positive patients into homes is another matter.

oh theres definitely questions to be answered about care homes, hopefully there are substantial inquests after the fact

polesheep

average_runner wrote: »

Not entirely true. They spend alot of their time in the community also.

Not in close contact. It would be highly unusual.

Penfailed

MickeyLeari wrote: »

They were open pre Summer break as you well know.

...so your point was?

Penfailed

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Any pub with an outdoor area is allowed open. They cant here!

I know! It doesn't take away from the fact that very many pubs are still closed in the north and it looks like the reopening scheduled for Monday will be delayed. I think we've come full circle and are actually making the same point.

Idbatterim

If im not mistaken, there is what a handful of people in hospital currently with covid?! So why is the excess capacoty not beimg used to treat something that is far horrendous and way higher death rate than covid ?

average_runner

polesheep wrote: »

Not in close contact. It would be highly unusual.

Well they are in Liffey Valley shopping centre alot and then down home in Wexford you see them in the shops alot also.


No issue with them in shops

average_runner

Idbatterim wrote: »

If im not mistaken, there is what a handful of people in hospital currently with covid?! So why is the excess capacoty not beimg used to treat something that is far horrendous and way higher death rate than covid ?

Hospitals are doing that, seen it first hand with my dad

MickeyLeari

Penfailed wrote: »

...so your point was?

Other countries were able to open up schools while we were not able to. We also don’t have a coherent plan for the reopening 3 weeks out.

The Belly

But luckily you see it all!

I think a lot of people can see the consequences of current policy

Of course people can see the consequences, nobody thinks this is all for free.

But people understand that consequences of simply ignoring the problem. If we open up too much, or too soon, the price to be paid will be many multiples of what we are seeing. We have already been through one lockdown, people do not want to go back to that. Sure, having the pubs remain closed is a PITA, but having the pubs closed as well as being limited to 2km, no sports, can't visit anybody etc is far worse.

What are we actually seeing? I see no new major rise in deaths low new infection rates hospitals empty and a economy heading for the cliff edge. Covid is setting the economic agenda and the gov with its advisors are reacting to it rather then getting ahead of it.

Melbourne has recently had to reintroduce restrictions. US tried the stay open approach and they are now paying the price, and likely will be for the rest of the year.

I don't agree with their policies either but im not a citizen of either country

The problem with this virus is how quickly it gets out of control, and no one is aware of the problem until it has already taken hold. And how long it takes to get it back under control, and the restrictions and price of that.

Ok so we just keep going the way we are going? Do you think covid we be eradicated before the economy is. What happens when deaths from other illness are multiple times the covid deaths?

So people are very much aware that this is hurting us big time, but what is the alternative? It is easy to say that pubs etc should be reopened, but what if that leads to a jump in numbers? The damage will be done?

Accept it focus on the the elderly nursing homes and people with underlying conditions and let the rest of the country go back to work and try to stop the economy going into the abyss. Get treatment of other illnesses back to normal.

Will you take the responsibility for those that die?

I'm not in gov or a member of the advisory committee.

Will you pay the price of the economic cost of a second lockdown?

Yes we all will pay the cost of the decisions taken currently.

It is easy to say 'open it up' when it isn't you making the decisions of having to bear responsibility.

So therefore because im not making the decisions im not entitled to an opinion?

FintanMcluskey

walus wrote: »

Give it another 6 months and Sweden will look the smartest of the bunch...

They already do. By a long way.

The Swedes may count themselves lucky they are lead by leader's, people who dont listen to horsesh#t.

Its a crisis like this that allows a populist government lead a prosperous nation down the drain

average_runner

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Other countries were able to open up schools while we were not able to. We also don’t have a coherent plan for the reopening 3 weeks out.

Because we never invested in schools in Ireland in the past. That is your main reason why

polesheep

average_runner wrote: »

Well they are in Liffey Valley shopping centre alot and then down home in Wexford you see them in the shops alot also.


No issue with them in shops

I'm not getting into a dead-end argument here. Travellers, asylum seekers and Roma do not share the same social networks as the rest of society. They do not mix outside of their own communities to the same degree as the rest of the community. Covid-19 runs rampant through those groups but there is not too much risk of them spreading it to the rest of the community. Hence the poster's point about general restrictions on the back of infection in specific groups being unwarranted.

Penfailed

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Other countries were able to open up schools while we were not able to. We also don’t have a coherent plan for the reopening 3 weeks out.

Apologies. I thought when you said that they were open pre-summer break that you were referring to our schools. That threw me. Yes, correct, they were elsewhere in Europe. The LC thing here was a complete balls. I do think that schools will reopen in September though.

dundalkfc10

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh theres definitely questions to be answered about care homes, hopefully there are substantial inquests after the fact

If anything this country loves is a good Inquest followed by more Inquests and nobody will ever face sanctions.

Penfailed

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

If anything this country loves is a good Inquest followed by more Inquests and nobody will ever face sanctions.

...with lots of money spent/wasted throughout.

Leroy42

The Belly wrote: »

Accept it focus on the the elderly nursing homes and people with underlying conditions and let the rest of the country go back to work and try to stop the economy going into the abyss. Get treatment of other illnesses back to normal.

But they are reopening the economy. There are now major parts of the economy back open again, albeit with certain restrictions in place. Retail is largely back, many companies are actively getting people back into offices.

Its the pubs and nightclubs that are the main issues at the moment, and based on their entire reason to exist it makes perfect sense to at least be conservative.

The Belly wrote: »

So therefore because im not making the decisions im not entitled to an opinion?

Yeah, because that what was said. I remember distinctly that I said you were not allowed an opinion! Jebus.
The point was it is easy for everyone to have an opinion, far more difficult when that opinion leads to a decision which has consequences for people.

You are advocating for a reopening. I was asking would you be prepared to accept the responsibility that comes with that decision? Would you be prepared, if things were to get worse, that you would be held personally responsible for the deaths of people or a second lockdown?

Because that is the reality of the decisions facing the doctors and the government. It sounds easy here, just reopen and see what happens, but their are real irroverable consequences to those decisions