Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

walus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Absolutely cant afford it.

They cant afford level 3.

Ireland already has one of the worst job losses in Europe while having the best natural defense against Covid of the whole of Europe.

NPHET really screwed Ireland over, and the sooner those who cant see that have a road to Damascus moment the better

Just a thought, but could this be that if Ireland was to steer away from the groupthink approach of most of EU countries, the rate at which it can borrow money would be much higher? And so by that token it is not health concerns that are the driving factor for this strategy of on/off lockdowns.

polesheep

OldRio wrote: »

and you have been played.

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

OldRio

polesheep wrote: »

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

You've missed the point. I'll leave it.

Stormyteacup

walus wrote: »

Just a thought, but could this be that if Ireland was to steer away from the groupthink approach of most of EU countries, the rate at which it can borrow money would be much higher? And so by that token it is not health concerns that are the driving factor for this strategy of on/off lockdowns.

Good point - wonder has that been hinted at at EU level. What makes Ireland so special that we can continue to borrow more money than our neighbours because we want our citizens extra locked down? Couldn’t continue indefinitely, EU will expect inroads to be taken to restore economic productivity here.

drunkmonkey

Whatsisname wrote: »

Has everyone forgotton we've had 3 pandemics since the Spanish Flu?

We've about 14 active pandemics at the moment, the flu has never stopped being one.

Pandemic, epidemic diseases..

Chikungunya
Cholera
Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever
Ebola virus disease
Hendra virus infection
Influenza (pandemic, seasonal, zoonotic)
Lassa fever
Marburg virus disease
Meningitis
MERS-CoV
Monkeypox
Nipah virus infection
Novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
Plague
Rift Valley fever
SARS
Smallpox
Tularaemia
Yellow fever
Zika virus disease

drunkmonkey

The mandatory masks in shops law expired yesterday with threat of jail, I didn't see anywhere it's been renewed, can anyone confirm?

Stormyteacup

polesheep wrote: »

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

Thankfully.

Signs of the hysteria being toned down, finally. It will be a delicate operation encouraging people back from institutionalised fear. Optimistic though after yesterday’s decision. Even if level 5 is still a possibility (wrong one imo), at least there appears to be some balance and rational thought in relations with NPHET.

Rrrrrr2

polesheep wrote: »

Sad but not surprising when you consider that most of them receive income rather than generate it.

I have to give Varadkar credit on that. Finally someone in senior position spelled that out. And he didn’t just gloss over it either. He gave those people the respect their livelihoods deserved. Which had been sorely lacking to date

hans aus dtschl

Irish Aris wrote: »

Not sure about that.
I think NPHET and Government have different point of views.

NPHET sees things from the somewhat narrower prism of health and safety and based on that they are probably right to recommend a level 5.
The government, on the other hand, have to consider other elements of everyday life in Ireland, including the financial aspect. And in this instance they decided that they will ignore the NPHET recommendation. Nothing to back it up, but I would guess (as many others) that money are running low.

And I think this will be a repeated pattern, not just in Ireland but in other countries. I just came back from 10 days in Greece (I am from there and visited my family) and the situation is quite similar: the equivalent of NPHET pounds the alarm on a daily basis that Greece needs to go to a lockdown again but the messaging that comes out for the government is that the country isn't anywhere near a lockdown and they pull every restriction trick out of the hat instead - reading between the lines I understood that Greece is in a very similar position as Ireland: rather poor public health system and lack of funds, and they just try to find a balance.

There were 2 things that intrigued me from last night's events:
1. For the first time the government completely ignored NPHETs recommendation. It will be very interesting to see what will happen if things don't improve in the next 3 weeks and NPHET recommends again level 5.
2. There were a couple of reports last night where HSE claimed that they haven't been consulted on the issue of capacity. Not sure if this was ever confirmed, if true though it shows that there is a disconnect between the 3 sides (NPHET, HSE and government) and, in my opinion, doesn't reflect very well on NPHET.

With respect, did you read the letter that was sent to the Government?
It specifically says that if there isn't a Level 5 lockdown for a period of 4 weeks now, and if there is a more gradual approach to the raising of levels, then there will be need for a Level 5 lockdown for a longer period in the near future.

If the government are right and we don't have a Level 5 in a few weeks time, then NPHET were wrong. If NPHET were right and things don't improve over the next few weeks and we see an imposition of Level 5 then the government were wrong.

I am not speculating on who's right or wrong. I'm just saying there appears to be a specific situation where one side has betted the opposite of the other.

drunkmonkey

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

I have to give Varadkar credit on that. Finally someone in senior position spelled that out. And he didn’t just gloss over it either. He gave those people the respect their livelihoods deserved. Which had been sorely lacking to date

He's still been involved in putting a lot of people out of work at the stroke of midnight tonight. Anyone can have sympathy, standing up and calling what's happening wrong takes real courage which he's sadly lacking.

Rrrrrr2

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He's still been involved in putting a lot of people out of work at the stroke of midnight tonight. Anyone can have sympathy, standing up and calling what's happening wrong takes real courage which he's sadly lacking.

Yes it isn’t enough you’re right but coming from the level of fanaticism displayed by Nphet and their cheerleaders this was a major step in the other direction for the first time since March. Hopefully a lot less people than if Nphet had got their way

Rrrrrr2

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Good point - wonder has that been hinted at at EU level. What makes Ireland so special that we can continue to borrow more money than our neighbours because we want our citizens extra locked down? Couldn’t continue indefinitely, EU will expect inroads to be taken to restore economic productivity here.

Donohoe's input was fairly telling alright- it's clear the money isn't there for Level 5

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The mandatory masks in shops law expired yesterday with threat of jail, I didn't see anywhere it's been renewed, can anyone confirm?

It has been renewed for another 5 weeks, expect that to be further extended after 5 weeks.

Even if it wasn’t would be really be stupid enough to go into shops etc without masks?

JeffKenna

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

With respect, did you read the letter that was sent to the Government?
It specifically says that if there isn't a Level 5 lockdown for a period of 4 weeks now, and if there is a more gradual approach to the raising of levels, then there will be need for a Level 5 lockdown for a longer period in the near future.

If the government are right and we don't have a Level 5 in a few weeks time, then NPHET were wrong. If NPHET were right and things don't improve over the next few weeks and we see an imposition of Level 5 then the government were wrong.

I am not speculating on who's right or wrong. I'm just saying there appears to be a specific situation where one side has betted the opposite of the other.

I don't think the government ever said that we wouldn't end up at level 5. What I heard from Leo last night is that we should use the road map that's there. Try level 3 first and see if that works.

facehugger99

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Donohoe's input was fairly telling alright- it's clear the money isn't there for Level 5

The Government will be forced to adopt an approach that many of us were advocating 7 months ago.

The only difference will be the billions of additional debt we've taken on in the interim which will leave us far less able to deal with the fallout.

There's been a cynical and cowardly approach from Day 1.

hans aus dtschl

JeffKenna wrote: »

I don't think the government ever said that we wouldn't end up at level 5. What I heard from Leo last night is that we should use the road map that's there. Try level 3 first and see if that works.

The NPHET letter explicitly says that won't work.

To clarify, I don't have an opinion on who's right or wrong. I'm just again saying that both sides are saying directly opposing things.

polesheep

facehugger99 wrote: »

The Government will be forced to adopt an approach that many of us were advocating 7 months ago.

The only difference will be the billions of additional debt we've taken on in the interim which will leave us far less able to deal with the fallout.

There's been a cynical and cowardly approach from Day 1.

For whatever reason they did it, the refusal to tell those most at risk to take particular care and to implement policies that would enable them to do that, and instead restrict everyone, was criminal.

Captain_Crash

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The NPHET letter explicitly says that won't work.

To clarify, I don't have an opinion on who's right or wrong. I'm just again saying that both sides are saying directly opposing things.

This is the stand out part for me... NPHET say we must act now and the gov didn't... so the question for me is what do the government believe that NPHET don't? or did Paschal spell it out, we can afford it and this is as restricted as we can afford to get??

JeffKenna

JeffKenna wrote: »

I don't think the government ever said that we wouldn't end up at level 5. What I heard from Leo last night is that we should use the road map that's there. Try level 3 first and see if that works.

But it won’t work as people are too selfish or stupid to abide by the restrictions so after a few weeks of this then we will have to go up the levels thus prolonging everything.

If we went to level 5 and closed the schools from tomorrow for 3 weeks this really would start to make a difference. Instead it will be dragged out for a few weeks at level 3, then maybe 4 and then level 5 all the while people are out of work longer etc. Go hard and fast on lockdowns and you come out of them faster.

bucketybuck

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The NPHET letter explicitly says that won't work.

To clarify, I don't have an opinion on who's right or wrong. I'm just again saying that both sides are saying directly opposing things.

I'm not sure they are.

The governments position should not be that NPHET are wrong, it should be that even if they are right, there are other things that need to be taken into account.

Of course that is an inconvenient truth for those who see Covid as the be all and end all.

polesheep

Captain_Crash wrote: »

This is the stand out part for me... NPHET say we must act now and the gov didn't... so the question for me is what do the government believe that NPHET don't? or did Paschal spell it out, we can afford it and this is as restricted as we can afford to get??

For the government it was as much can't as won't. It's taking a long time for the penny to drop with some of the public that restrictions come with a massive financial cost that cannot be maintained forever.

facehugger99

It's almost been funny seeing some of the slow-learners start to wake up the nonsense of the 'zero-Covid approach being advocated by NPHET.

I fully expect another 'road to Damascus' moment when services start getting cut and taxes are hiked to pay for all the money we’ve pissed away.

Unfortunately it will be far too late by that time.

Dr Tony, Dr Ro-Ro, the other 38(!) members of NPHET and our political masters will be well insulated from whats coming in the post.

The rest of us will be left with the bill.

bucketybuck

Captain_Crash wrote: »

This is the stand out part for me... NPHET say we must act now and the gov didn't... so the question for me is what do the government believe that NPHET don't?

I'd say they believe that the cure is worse than the disease. That following one groups advice could save 100 lives now but kill thousands in the long term.

Quite frankly I want the government to be questioning those choices rather than abdicating responsibility to a single issue group.

drunkmonkey

Guards not getting any more powers, can only advise you about guidelines, they have no legal basis to stop you crossing the county border or doing what you want in your own home.

crossman47

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It has been renewed for another 5 weeks, expect that to be further extended after 5 weeks.

Even if it wasn’t would be really be stupid enough to go into shops etc without masks?

But its clear we have an awful lot of very stupid people.

topper75

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

... Go hard and fast on lockdowns and you come out of them faster.

And for how long can we keep going in and out of these lockdowns?

The disease causes some disruption. I don't think people in their social and economic planning need ANOTHER deliberately-created layer of disruption.

When we come out of a lockdown (however fast - it doesn't matter) I have to work out the purchase of perishable food or drink stock and the staff roster. If I am trying to do this under a govt that likes to slam the nuclear button - well that is impossible virtually. We need a better way where we ignore cases and focus on hospital resourcing for people in trouble. Cases have gone nuts in France - way higher than Spring. But deaths have hardly crept off the horizontal graph axis. NPHET's concern was misplaced with over focus on case data.

JeffKenna

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The NPHET letter explicitly says that won't work.

To clarify, I don't have an opinion on who's right or wrong. I'm just again saying that both sides are saying directly opposing things.

Went back and had a read of the letter again.

NPHET state that the measures will only be achieved with broad society buy in, yet what confuses me is that the actions of leaking the details on a Sunday night was actively working against that goal.

polesheep

JeffKenna wrote: »

Went back and had a read of the letter again.

NPHET state that the measures will only be achieved with broad society buy in, yet what confuses me is that the actions of leaking the details on a Sunday night was actively working against that goal.

They simply don't see the people who cannot afford to buy-in. They are in a PS bubble.

weldoninhio

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It has been renewed for another 5 weeks, expect that to be further extended after 5 weeks.

Even if it wasn’t would be really be stupid enough to go into shops etc without masks?

It was renewed for public transport. I haven't seen anything renewing it for shops.

FintanMcluskey

Haha this man is a ranting lunatic.

The public realise now his only purpose is to lighten the mood.

Hes not the only one to loose credibility during Covid

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/covid-19-circuit-break-5225075-Oct2020/