Schools and Concerns

TM2015

We are lucky in that there are no staggered drop offs or pick ups. The school has a number of entrances so each class will be using their own. No lunch bags allowed, only a lunch box. Kids required to bring their own face cloth for drying hands. No sharing of scissors, rulers etc. A rather sensible approach overall.

cant26

Just received a letter from the Naionra that my little boy will be starting.

Usually you would enter the Naionra rooms from the main school but they have created outdoor entrances so that we can drop to the classroom door.

We were provided a map of how the one way system for drop off/collection will operate.
There are no settling in days but we received a video of his class and a photo of his teachers.

Loads of info on pods but nothing on lunchboxes or bags forbidden.

They said it’s going to really focus on being outdoors so we have to provide a full change of clothes, coat,wellies, hat to stay there full time.

Still haven’t heard anything from the school itself for the older lad but just delighted I don’t have to drop the little guy at the gate. He would lose his life

byhookorbycrook

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

There is a very clear and easily implemented alternative. Launch a zoom meeting at the start of every class so any student who can’t attend school can attend via video.

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Not as simple as that,there are privacy issues. If X is struggling in Maths and Y needs to be reminded to keep on task, it's not fair -or indeed ethical, to broadcast that, never mind under GDPR.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not as simple as that,there are privacy issues. If X is struggling in Maths and Y needs to be reminded to keep on task, it's not fair -or indeed ethical, to broadcast that, never mind under GDPR.

Can nothing escape bloody GDPR? How on earth has teaching over zoom got anything to do with GDPR.

Anyway surely with the move back towards lockdown and large case numbers the reopening of schools has to be unlikely. How can they pack 10’s of thousands of kids into classrooms while at the same time saying it’s unsafe for a handful of people to enter a large stadium, board a bus unless essential or only 6 people in your own home.

Dravokivich

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not as simple as that,there are privacy issues. If X is struggling in Maths and Y needs to be reminded to keep on task, it's not fair -or indeed ethical, to broadcast that, never mind under GDPR.

That's neither a question of ethics nor a concern for GDPR. Those are comments id reasonably expect to be used in a classroom and would be surprised not to hear in a virtual classroom. It isnt really a "broadcast" either. Going under the expectation it'll be a private room thatll require some sort of invite/authentication to validate prior to joining.

byhookorbycrook

My posts are coloured by the fact that I teach children with additional needs. Why should their difficulties be broadcast to all the other parents?Under GDPR, it actually IS a concern, as well ,pre-Covid,even other staff members weren't allowed to know the additional needs of a child not in their class, never mind other parents.

lazygal

Zoom teaching is not appropriate for primary school children. For practical and myriad other reasons. How can I supervise two children on separate Zoom calls while doing my own work and my husband using the only other laptop? And it would be grossly unfair for every parent or who knows whoever else to be able to nose in at a class and hear of difficulties or challenges. No one can consider that ethical.
Some crèches used to have a code for parents to access the CCTV live feed. Ripe for misuse, grannies would be allowed have a gawk, people considering using the service were allowed a look by their friends etc. Children deserve better than having anyone in a house being able to watch them at work.

Dravokivich

You're making it sound far more than it is. GDPR is about stored data, the purpose of it, accessibilty and retention of it. A phone call, which is essentially what a video call is, is not by any loose interpretation a broadcast. If that's how your place of work has perceived it, they've gone out of their way to make your job more difficult.

lazygal

Primary school children cannot be taught over Zoom. Anyone with a passing knowledge of children could see the problems with that suggestion.

lazygal

lazygal wrote: »

Zoom teaching is not appropriate for primary school children. For practical and myriad other reasons. How can I supervise two children on separate Zoom calls while doing my own work and my husband using the only other laptop? And it would be grossly unfair for every parent or who knows whoever else to be able to nose in at a class and hear of difficulties or challenges. No one can consider that ethical.
Some crèches used to have a code for parents to access the CCTV live feed. Ripe for misuse, grannies would be allowed have a gawk, people considering using the service were allowed a look by their friends etc. Children deserve better than having anyone in a house being able to watch them at work.

Buy more laptops or tablets? A lot of people will have sufficient devices anyway. Between work and personal devices we have about 4 laptops, a desktop and 3 tablets between 2 of us.

People are looking for excuses but the fact is it may have to be a choice between no school at all or remote learning. To me sending kids to school and making people sick, along with potentially killing people is not an acceptable situation but it appears many parents of school going children would prefer this risk be taken than the alternative of remote learning which is surely better than no learning at all if schools are closed. How can the government tell people WFH and not use public transport while at the same time packing thousands and thousands of children into schools who go home to parents and grandparents, go to shops etc etc.

Clutching at straws about non-existent GDPR issues etc is not helping the situation. Also people are focusing on primary schools, at the very least secondary schools should not be reopening as for them remote learning should not be an issue, not saying it’s ideal but it’s an option.

lazygal

And how can I supervise two children on laptops for a full school day while working on a third and my husband working on a forth?
We can afford laptops if needs be. What about all the families who don't or don't have good broadband?

byhookorbycrook

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

Buy more laptops or tablets? A lot of people will have sufficient devices anyway. Between work and personal devices we have about 4 laptops, a desktop and 3 tablets between 2 of us.

People are looking for excuses but the fact is it may have to be a choice between no school at all or remote learning. To me sending kids to school and making people sick, along with potentially killing people is not an acceptable situation but it appears many parents of school going children would prefer this risk be taken than the alternative of remote learning which is surely better than no learning at all if schools are closed. How can the government tell people WFH and not use public transport while at the same time packing thousands and thousands of children into schools who go home to parents and grandparents, go to shops etc etc.

Clutching at straws about non-existent GDPR issues etc is not helping the situation. Also people are focusing on primary schools, at the very least secondary schools should not be reopening as for them remote learning should not be an issue, not saying it’s ideal but it’s an option.

Lucky ye, but my point remains, many vulnerable households haven't more than one device.

GDPR wise, you need to read up on how it works in schools, starting here
https://www.pdst.ie/DistanceLearning/VideoConferencing

Dravokivich

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Lucky ye, but my point remains, many vulnerable households haven't more than one device.

GDPR wise, you need to read up on how it works in schools, starting here
https://www.pdst.ie/DistanceLearning/VideoConferencing

That's referencing stored data. The call in of itself isn't a gdpr issue. The issue arises with recordings. The storage of it, the location of it, the accessibily of it, the retention of it will have data protection/GDPR constraints. But all that is entirely seperate to the action of having a call and the content of that call.

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

Buy more laptops or tablets? A lot of people will have sufficient devices anyway. Between work and personal devices we have about 4 laptops, a desktop and 3 tablets between 2 of us.

People are looking for excuses but the fact is it may have to be a choice between no school at all or remote learning. To me sending kids to school and making people sick, along with potentially killing people is not an acceptable situation but it appears many parents of school going children would prefer this risk be taken than the alternative of remote learning which is surely better than no learning at all if schools are closed. How can the government tell people WFH and not use public transport while at the same time packing thousands and thousands of children into schools who go home to parents and grandparents, go to shops etc etc.

Clutching at straws about non-existent GDPR issues etc is not helping the situation. Also people are focusing on primary schools, at the very least secondary schools should not be reopening as for them remote learning should not be an issue, not saying it’s ideal but it’s an option.

Not everyone has the options of loading up on devices. Then you've got to consider, what way are they setup at home already? People who don't have PCs/Laptops/Tablets, probably don't have internet.

That's some strong words regarding people gambling to send kids to school with some sort of acceptable risk in mind. Aside of all the stupid socialising we've seen reported over the last few weeks, do you really think that's representative of everyone? I've heard from people who'd be hesitant to put their child into school. Never heard anyone say anything about pushing them through the gates regardless.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

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That's some strong words regarding people gambling to send kids to school with some sort of acceptable risk in mind. Aside of all the stupid socialising we've seen reported over the last few weeks, do you really think that's representative of everyone? I've heard from people who'd be hesitant to put their child into school. Never heard anyone say anything about pushing them through the gates regardless.

Maybe it came across wrong I didn’t mean it as harshly as you took it.

I was more saying that despite the high case numbers parents really appear to want the schools to open whereas personally if I had a school going aged child I would be hoping they didn’t open or opted for remote learning as if they open there are very limited options except sending them to school but if they are not open then you are free to keep them at home and protect family members from the virus etc.

I don’t think some people realise the crucial role grandparents or other elderly people play in the lives of children be it child minding, pickups etc or even living with them and some of the comments like “just find alternatives” are just pie in the sky really when there really are not any suitable alternatives. Childcare is extremely difficult to find even before covid in many areas and then there is the cost which many can not afford or can’t afford while saving for mortgages etc. Just finding alternatives just isn’t an option.

I think they should just forget about schools for this term at this stage and see how things go over the winter. As I said some of the restriction that have been reintroduced cannot be operated in the same breath as opening schools which have the potential to be meat factories in every town and village.

screamer

I’m also very worried, one child is a chronic asthmatic but at 11 has begged to go back to school. I was serious considering home schooling, and if numbers keep rising I will. It’s a small country school and hopefully she can wear a mask, and knows how to social distance and sanitize her hands etc.
I also have 2 in ecce and much as I’d love them to go back, with before and afterschool for about 4 different schools in and out, not to mention the other preschoolers I think there are far too many possible transmission routes and these 2 will be staying home with me as I continue to wfh full time.
It’s a nightmare altogether and I can’t help but see a rocketing number of cases once thousands of kids go back to school together.

JoeA3

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

I don’t think some people realise the crucial role grandparents or other elderly people play in the lives of children be it child minding, pickups etc or even living with them and some of the comments like “just find alternatives” are just pie in the sky really when there really are not any suitable alternatives. Childcare is extremely difficult to find even before covid in many areas and then there is the cost which many can not afford or can’t afford while saving for mortgages etc. Just finding alternatives just isn’t an option.

Here we get to the crux of it. It is no secret that you live with your parents and they do your babysitting. So you have a very strong bias here towards maintaining that status quo, and not for the first time your lack of awareness of how other people live their lives is very apparent.

Let me break it down for you. What about all the parents (which are undoubtedly in the greater majority) who don't have the luxury of free childcare with the grandparents? Who don't even live within 100 miles of them, never mind under the same roof? Who do have huge mortgages to pay this month, who do have hefty childcare fees to pay and can't just drop their day jobs to supervise their children all day while they attempt remote learning? People who can't afford to just "go out and buy new devices" - you dropped that suggestion in there like its as simple as popping out to buy a litre of milk. Lucky you, to have all that disposable income.

My child is due to start primary school in 2 weeks. I for one hope it goes ahead as planned. Indeed, so do her grandparents. School is a hugely important part of a young child's life. The social interaction. The structure. Remote learning is not suitable for small children.

Having said all that, I think it could work for older (secondary school) kids and rather than having them all sitting on their backsides since March and getting a free pass on the Leaving Cert, something could have been done there. But that's a whole other discussion.

JoeA3

JoeA3 wrote: »

Here we get to the crux of it. It is no secret that you live with your parents and they do your babysitting. So you have a very strong bias here towards maintaining that status quo, and not for the first time your lack of awareness of how other people live their lives is very apparent.

Let me break it down for you. What about all the parents (which are undoubtedly in the greater majority) who don't have the luxury of free childcare with the grandparents? Who don't even live within 100 miles of them, never mind under the same roof? Who do have huge mortgages to pay this month, who do have hefty childcare fees to pay and can't just drop their day jobs to supervise their children all day while they attempt remote learning? People who can't afford to just "go out and buy new devices" - you dropped that suggestion in there like its as simple as popping out to buy a litre of milk. Lucky you, to have all that disposable income.

My child is due to start primary school in 2 weeks. I for one hope it goes ahead as planned. Indeed, so do her grandparents. School is a hugely important part of a young child's life. The social interaction. The structure. Remote learning is not suitable for small children.

Having said all that, I think it could work for older (secondary school) kids and rather than having them all sitting on their backsides since March and getting a free pass on the Leaving Cert, something could have been done there. But that's a whole other discussion.

I am not just focusing on my situation I am thinking of the spread of the virus. If we are being told to WFH, don't meet in groups inside, don't meet in groups outside, don't use public transport then how can you square the circle with opening schools which are very likely to be a hot bed for the virus.

We might as well just forget about all restrictions if schools open imo.

If I was you I'd be hoping the schools don't open thus exposing my child to the risk of contracting the virus, passing it to you, to grandparents, to the people you meet, to people in shops etc.

School is important for a child's life but the lives of people are more important and in any case we are not talking about a child never going to school we are taking about an initial delay of say 3 to 6 months to see how things pan out. Kids start primary school at a wide spread of ages too, some are only gone 4 some are nearly 6 so unless you are very much on the upper end I can't see why its so terrible for them. Does a person who sends their child at 4 think someone who waits until 5 is ruining their childs life?

The 5th year and leaving cert are probably the only classes who are really having very strong impacts and for them remote learning should be very feasible and on top of that, whats one year added on - it's far from the end of the world. People dying due to ploughing on with opening schools though is unacceptable.

If we locked down heavily again for 3 months, closed all airports and let nothing but absolutely essential travel into the country happen, really kept people in their homes or large outdoor spaces only. Get virus numbers down to no cases for weeks and then we could start considering opening schools after christmas. I think that would be a very realistic and doable process and would only result in 3 months or so of delay in opening schools.

JoeA3

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

If I was you I'd be hoping the schools don't open thus exposing my child to the risk of contracting the virus, passing it to you, to grandparents, to the people you meet, to people in shops etc.

The reality for most parents is, if the child isn't in school, then the child will have to go to a creche / child-minders. Indefinitely. You can't just hand a tablet to a 4/5 year old and say toddle off there for the day. So if they're not spreading it in a school environment, they'll be spreading it somewhere else.

As I said, most of us have to pay handsomely for childcare.

JoeA3

JoeA3 wrote: »

The reality for most parents is, if the child isn't in school, then the child will have to go to a creche / child-minders. Indefinitely. You can't just hand a tablet to a 4/5 year old and say toddle off there for the day. So if they're not spreading it in a school environment, they'll be spreading it somewhere else.

As I said, most of us have to pay handsomely for childcare.

I wouldn’t put the child in childcare either, I’d find a way. People managed through lockdown WFH and minding children. It’s not easy but unless people work for very old fashion strict hours workplaces then sharing the duties between parents, staggering work hours, staggering work days etc with minding children is doable, difficult but a much better option than childcare during the pandemic.

People who have grandparents or relations to do childcare can also make a bubble with them so they aren’t risking the grandparents as the kids are not seeing anyone outside of the two homes.

Childcare closed during the lockdown also, if another lockdown happened no reason to expect it won’t be closed again.

jlm29

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

I am not just focusing on my situation I am thinking of the spread of the virus. If we are being told to WFH, don't meet in groups inside, don't meet in groups outside, don't use public transport then how can you square the circle with opening schools which are very likely to be a hot bed for the virus.

We might as well just forget about all restrictions if schools open imo.

If I was you I'd be hoping the schools don't open thus exposing my child to the risk of contracting the virus, passing it to you, to grandparents, to the people you meet, to people in shops etc.

School is important for a child's life but the lives of people are more important and in any case we are not talking about a child never going to school we are taking about an initial delay of say 3 to 6 months to see how things pan out. Kids start primary school at a wide spread of ages too, some are only gone 4 some are nearly 6 so unless you are very much on the upper end I can't see why its so terrible for them. Does a person who sends their child at 4 think someone who waits until 5 is ruining their childs life?

The 5th year and leaving cert are probably the only classes who are really having very strong impacts and for them remote learning should be very feasible and on top of that, whats one year added on - it's far from the end of the world. People dying due to ploughing on with opening schools though is unacceptable.

If we locked down heavily again for 3 months, closed all airports and let nothing but absolutely essential travel into the country happen, really kept people in their homes or large outdoor spaces only. Get virus numbers down to no cases for weeks and then we could start considering opening schools after christmas. I think that would be a very realistic and doable process and would only result in 3 months or so of delay in opening schools.

There’s a few flaws in your logic.
Firstly- it wouldn’t be just 3 months. We did that. It worked while we were at home. Now numbers are climbing because we’re not at home anymore. What would be different next time? The reality is, we’re going to see rises and falls in the numbers until there’s a vaccine. That’s going to be another year at a minimum I suppose?
Secondly, not everyone is working from home. shop staff, healthcare workers, teachers this time around etc etc etc- where do their kids go while their parents are at work?

JoeA3

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

I wouldn’t put the child in childcare either, I’d find a way.

We know you've found a way! Your way doesn't work for most of us.

shesty

Having "home-schooled" a Junior Infant from March to June, I can tell you remote learning is useless for the younger end of primary school. They are learning to write, read, count - nice to have a few apps to play with, but at the end of the day they need pencils in their hands and they need to be doing, with physical items, and physical interaction like singing, dancing and moving, in a class environment, for the stuff to go in. There is absolutely no way she would last even 20 minutes in front of a Zoom session with a teacher. We got sent pdfs which were great and all, but still, she would do maximum 40 minutes - and that was a good session - and no more. Additionally, schooling her with 2 and 4 year olds in the background is a non-runner long term.


People need to use their own judgement. They know their own living situation, and their own child. That being said of course, the Department have been absolutely abysmal in all of this - I think it is obvious that the Departments of Health and Education need to have money thrown at the them to sort out the decades of chronic underfunding. Because otherwise we are going to spend the whole winter twisting ourselves in knots to basically maintain a status quo in badly funded Health and Education systems, instead of trying to drastically improve them to help avoid the spread of the virus.

Digs

My husband is WFH since March, 3 kids , 1 in school, 1 ECCE and 1 a 20 month old lunatic. Saying that I am a stay at home Mam and while we have found it very tough I thank my lucky stars for it because seeing some friends and family struggle through with similar but with both parents working Is all I need to check my privilege when reacting to the schools. I wish others would do the same when telling others to just get on with it again if they closed.

jlm29

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

I wouldn’t put the child in childcare either, I’d find a way. People managed through lockdown WFH and minding children. It’s not easy but unless people work for very old fashion strict hours workplaces then sharing the duties between parents, staggering work hours, staggering work days etc with minding children is doable, difficult but a much better option than childcare during the pandemic.

People who have grandparents or relations to do childcare can also make a bubble with them so they aren’t risking the grandparents as the kids are not seeing anyone outside of the two homes.

Childcare closed during the lockdown also, if another lockdown happened no reason to expect it won’t be closed again.

Do you actually have children? Just out of curiosity.

SusanC10

Digs wrote: »

My husband is WFH since March, 3 kids , 1 in school, 1 ECCE and 1 a 20 month old lunatic. Saying that I am a stay at home Mam and while we have found it very tough I thank my lucky stars for it because seeing some friends and family struggle through with similar but with both parents working Is all I need to check my privilege when reacting to the schools. I wish others would do the same when telling others to just get on with it.

Agreed, I realise we are privileged in being WFH and SAH.
But I do wish that we as Parents could be allowed to decide for our children if they physically attend school or not during this exceptional circumstance of a Pandemic and if attending that it is a parental decision (at Primary) if the children wear masks.

Neyite

Not everyone has relatives that are a) close geographically to them or b) willing to mind children and c) also not in a vulnerable group themselves.



Not all parents have a desk job. Out of the random pool of the parents I know in my son's class, 2 are garda, two are nurses, one in retail, one a postman, one is hospital support staff, one is a teacher, one works in manufacturing, and many of the dads are tradesmen of various flavours. About a third or a quarter would have some job flexibility I think.


That's why not one single solution works here for anyone involved.

s1ippy

SusanC10 wrote: »

Agreed, I realise we are privileged in being WFH and SAH.
But I do wish that we as Parents could be allowed to decide for our children if they physically attend school or not during this exceptional circumstance of a Pandemic and if attending that it is a parental decision (at Primary) if the children wear masks.

Contact your principal and just tell them your position. They should be sympathetic and if they're not, you're better off finding a different school. The level of compassion of the principal will have a huge bearing on the well being of the staff and students in the place.

Digs

SusanC10 wrote: »

Agreed, I realise we are privileged in being WFH and SAH.
But I do wish that we as Parents could be allowed to decide for our children if they physically attend school or not during this exceptional circumstance of a Pandemic and if attending that it is a parental decision (at Primary) if the children wear masks.

I couldn’t agree with you more, it would reduce class sizes too which would be a win naturally.
As this week unfolds the lack of planning is becoming apparent. I really feel for teachers. Equally for parents and children from all different situations and scenarios.
Making things black and white or one size fits all just doesn’t help really.

Neyite

SusanC10 wrote: »

Agreed, I realise we are privileged in being WFH and SAH.
But I do wish that we as Parents could be allowed to decide for our children if they physically attend school or not during this exceptional circumstance of a Pandemic and if attending that it is a parental decision (at Primary) if the children wear masks.

I assumed it WAS our decision. And as far as I'm concerned, it will be. I had a chat with the principal a couple of weeks ago and got a preview of how the classrooms would be laid out. But we are a small country school in a district where we've had <5 cases. Bluntly speaking I'll be looking to the bigger schools in the bigger cities and if clusters start to occur connected to a school then we will probably take him out of school. OH is in the at-risk group and would be working from home anyway. Likely until the work-from-home-if-you-can directive is lifted, so will I.

bee06

Lamar Short Sidearm wrote: »

I wouldn’t put the child in childcare either, I’d find a way. People managed through lockdown WFH and minding children. It’s not easy but unless people work for very old fashion strict hours workplaces then sharing the duties between parents, staggering work hours, staggering work days etc with minding children is doable, difficult but a much better option than childcare during the pandemic.

People who have grandparents or relations to do childcare can also make a bubble with them so they aren’t risking the grandparents as the kids are not seeing anyone outside of the two homes.

Childcare closed during the lockdown also, if another lockdown happened no reason to expect it won’t be closed again.

People just about survived knowing that there was an end in sight with summer holidays and lockdown reopening. WFH and homeschooling children is not a long term solution.