Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

Bob24

We already discussed how creating 2 classes of citizens makes no sense, but people who still want to do it aren’t clear with the practicalities anyway.

Gatling wrote: »

They maintain their original citizenship hence we should then revoke the one they got through living here a few years and filling in a form ,

Not only you can’t force them to maintain it, but in some case they couldn’t maintain it even if they wanted to because the other country could cancel it (for some countries such as China or India the original citizenship is actually automatically lost upon becoming Irish).

Gatling wrote: »

For instance we send this rapist back to Nigeria they can't make him stateless and send him else where he's Nigerian born and bred .

Actually Nigeria could very much cancel his citizenship and refuse to take him if their gouvernement wanted to do that.

I’d even go further, if this kind of stuff was done on very rare occasions related to terrorism and attacks against the state, maybe it would be fine (some kind of deal would need to exist with the other country to make sure they are taking the people back). But if Ireland tried to play that game too often, we would grow a reputation for it. And what would happen next? Every country would ask their embassies in Ireland to monitor when their dual citizens are sent to jail in ireland, and consider to quietly revoke their citizenships before Ireland does if deemed necessary.


So again, it is *before* granting citizenship that Ireland should exercise due diligence (and I am all in for saying getting citizenship shouldn’t be seen as some kind of automatic next administrative status after 5 years of residence as it kind of is today - for exemple we don’t even check something as basic as applicants for naturalisation having decent proficiency in one of our official languages). Once it is granted, it is too late to regret it and we have to deal with all our citizens good or bad.

Queasy Tadpole

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I would vote in favor or removing citizenship/naturalization of someone who was not born here fore serious crimes.

To make it work, allow them to retain both nationalities, then if they fault under any of the required crimes, remove their status here and deport them, i wouldn't even wait for them to serve their time. Once conviction has been obtained (with 1 opportunity for appeal) and stuck then exit them on the first plane of their country of origin, don't matter if its a war zone, leper colony or drug farm as jailing them is a further cost to the taxpayer, just get rid of them.

Crimes for consideration - any sex crime against any person of any age, drug dealing, serious drug use (3 strike rule, heroin, cocaine etc.), any form of assault or manslaughter or murder, embezzlement/theft from bank/state institution. For other crimes such where no assault has been carried out such as burglary, petty theft etc then a 3 strike rule applies and deport on conviction of 3rd strike.

I would have no problem with this being applied to any Irish abroad.

Why only these crimes?

Varik

Bob24 wrote: »

We already discussed how creating 2 classes of citizens makes no sense, but people who still want to do it aren’t clear with the practicalities anyway.



Not only you can’t force them to maintain it, but in some case they couldn’t maintain it even if they wanted to because the other country could cancel it (for some countries such as China or India the original citizenship is actually automatically lost upon becoming Irish).



Actually Nigeria could very much cancel his citizenship and refuse to take him if their gouvernement wanted to do that.

I’d even go further, if this kind of stuff was done on very rare occasions related to terrorism and attacks against the state, maybe it would be fine (some kind of deal would need to exist with the other country to make sure they are taking the people back). But if Ireland tried to play that game too often, we would grow a reputation for it. And what would happen next? Every country would ask their embassies in Ireland to monitor when their dual citizens are sent to jail in ireland, and consider to quietly revoke their citizenships before Ireland does if deemed necessary.


So again, it is *before* granting citizenship that Ireland should exercise due diligence (and I am all in for saying getting citizenship shouldn’t be seen as some kind of automatic next administrative status after 5 years of residence as it kind of is today - for exemple we don’t even check something as basic as applicants for naturalisation having decent proficiency in one of our official languages). Once it is granted, it is too late to regret it and we have to deal with all our citizens good or bad.

So Ireland can't do something that's legal under international law because another country might do something that's illegal under the same.

Gatling

Varik wrote: »

So Ireland can't do something that's legal under international law because another country might do something that's illegal under the same.

This is the mentality some have, it's better we keep this foreign imported criminals rather than send them home to where they came from because they might not get treated so well by their government .not our elected government but the Nigerian government .

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

This is the mentality some have, it's better we keep this foreign imported criminals rather than send them home to where they came from because they might not get treated so well by their government .not our elected government but the Nigerian government .

If you saw fit to make them a citizen they’re your problem.

Sending them somewhere to be be beheaded etc. or whatever is the Irish government condoning the beheading of its criminals. And still no guarantee they face any punishment in the country of deportation either, they could run off and kill or rape again- just not in your backyard so I guess that makes it okay?

Queasy Tadpole

Gatling wrote: »

This is the mentality some have, it's better we keep this foreign imported criminals rather than send them home to where they came from because they might not get treated so well by their government .not our elected government but the Nigerian government .

No. It's a slippery slope in my view. If you can revoke a persons citizenship that was acquired through naturalization because they have committed a crime... what is the real difference doing the same to someone who happened to be born here? Lets say person A who became Irish killed one person and gets the citizenship removed... yet you have person B who was born here who killed 2 people... yet they remain a citizen. It's too muddled. What crimes and why? Who decides? Once you're a citizen you're a citizen. I feel like it is going backwards, more towards banishment like it was in medieval times.

Overheal

That’s true, exile is not a term you hear often in the modern era.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

If you saw fit to make them a citizen they’re your problem.

Sending them somewhere to be be beheaded etc. or whatever is

Justice .

If they get returned to sender and they choose to rape again and face the consequence of their own actions so be it.

Better than waiting for them to rape here again god knows how many times,
And how do we deal with it ah shure it's grand we have Irish rapists too we just can't monitor them or put them on a register that people regularly mention that doesn't actually exist here .

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

Justice .

If they get returned to sender and they choose to rape again-

- it would be Ireland enabling a rapist.

This is peak NIMBYism.

Gatling

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

No. It's a slippery slope in my view. If you can revoke a persons citizenship that was acquired through naturalization because they have committed a crime...

The citizenship they got for living here for a few years and filling in an application ,

If it's easy to give it should be just as easily to be removed for committing crimes ,if that can't be agreed then we need to get rid of dual citizenships here .

Make an honourary citizenship for people who earn it nothing more than a certificate in a frame no Irish passport with it

Queasy Tadpole

Gatling wrote: »

Justice .

If they get returned to sender and they choose to rape again and face the consequence of their own actions so be it.

Better than waiting for them to rape here again god knows how many times,
And how do we deal with it ah shure it's grand we have Irish rapists too we just can't monitor them or put them on a register that people regularly mention that doesn't actually exist here .

Whats the re-offence rate for rapists?


There is a sex offender register in Ireland. They are put under strict conditions and are visited regularly by Gardai.

Overheal

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Whats the re-offence rate for rapists?


There is a sex offender register in Ireland. They are put under strict conditions and are visited regularly by Gardai.

It’s not called a registry per se but

If you are convicted of a sexual offence, the court will issue you with a Certificate of Conviction. The Gardaí and the governor of the facility where you will be detained will also get a copy of the certificate. The certificate states:

• The offence you were convicted of
• The sentence you received
• That you are subject to reporting requirements

The Sex Offender Management and Intelligence Unit (SOMIU) of the Gardaí deal with certificates issued from the court. This means that SOMIU have the details of everyone who has been convicted of certain sexual offences and who are subject to the requirements of the Sex Offenders Act 2001. They keep a record of each individual using the court certificate (and this record is commonly known as the Sex Offenders Register). SOMIU are responsible for maintaining these records and monitoring the reported activity of sex offenders.

SOMIU monitor sex offenders by cross-referencing these certificates with the Sex Offender Notification Forms supplied by local Garda stations. These forms have the sex offender’s address as well as other details that the sex offender must provide to the Gardaí under the Act. SOMIU also receive email notifications when information is entered onto PULSE (Police Using Leading Systems Effectively) about a sex offender, so they can act on any information that needs attention.

At a local level the Gardaí have nominated Inspectors in each local district who are responsible for monitoring and managing sex offenders in their district. Each sex offender is assigned a liaison Garda or Sergeant. The liaison Garda or Sergeant carries out a risk assessment of the offender, which determines how often they will visit the offender. They also monitor the offender to ensure they are complying with their requirements under the Act. For example, they ensure that the offender is living at the address they provided to the Gardaí. They will prosecute the offender if the offender breaks these requirements.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/law_enforcement/monitoring_sex_offenders_in_ireland.html

DelaneyIn

We’ve naturalised people on the run from Interpol. Perhaps we should instead on focus on stop lashing citizenship out like snuff at a wake.

A mother-of-six who is wanted to serve a 20-year sentence in Italy for her part in a multi-million euro drug trafficking conspiracy has been arrested in Dublin.

Aisha Ahmed (49), who has been living in Tallaght, is sought for extradition to be jailed for her part in a cocaine importing operation in Naples 14 years ago.

She is the wife of a taxi driver Yemi Moshood Olatunde (47), who was arrested earlier this week following an international manhunt.

Both maintained they were arrested in cases of mistaken identity but the High Court heard their fingerprints were "absolute matches" for the couple being sought by Interpol.

Ahmed said she had never been to Italy. She was arrested and brought to Tallaght Garda Station where she provided fingerprints that matched those of the person being sought.

The court heard she was a naturalised Irish citizen and had a passport in the name of Gloria Anwelika Aro.

She had registered with the Garda National Immigration Bureau in the same name when she arrived here.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/wife-of-cocaine-fugitive-wanted-for-same-crime-30692389.html

What other bogeys have given citizenship too? Who knows. But it’s obvious there’s no stringent checks.

Donald Trump

Gatling wrote: »

Varik wrote: »

So Ireland can't do something that's legal under international law because another country might do something that's illegal under the same.

This is the mentality some have, it's better we keep this foreign imported criminals rather than send them home to where they came from because they might not get treated so well by their government .not our elected government but the Nigerian government .

I think the point is that it would be a race to remove it.

Last country holding the parcel has to keep it.

Gatling

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

There is a sex offender register in Ireland. They are put under strict conditions and are visited regularly by Gardai.

No .

The gardai have repeatedly stated they don't have the resources to monitor them 24/7

Carawaystick

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Anyone who commits a serious crime while a guest of this country and the goodwill of its citizens - back where you came from! We shouldn't be on the hook for feeding, rehabilitating them in already overcrowded prisons.

The thread isn't about guests. Its about citizens.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Citizenship (as others have said) is a privilege that should be EARNED by making a genuine positive impact on their community and the nation as whole. Not simply because they "Did their time" in a DP centre.
Speaking of DP centres - fully agree that they need to be closed. Firstly to new entrants until the backlog is cleared (under the same ONE appeal system I referred to above), and then to anyone not eligible under the conditions above.
We absolutely do NOT need to house and throw social welfare supports at these people when we can't even manage to create genuinely affordable housing for not just those genuinely in need of it, but the wider work force as a whole.

The state has made a choice not to solve the housing problem in Ireland.
This should not stop refugees seeking help here, if their home state is worse.
No one knows when there will be a time when they have to seek refuge in a foreign state: Loads of people living in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland had to seek refuge from violent loyalist thugs in the seventies. Should we have turned them away also?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ireland has become a nation where too many are letting the misplaced guilt, the misplaced social issues of other nations (eg: the BLM crusade), and American identity politics have far too much sway in our lives and the decisions made by the powers that be.
It's an inferiority complex - we crave the validation and approval of our "betters", and feel that we must somehow apologise and make up for the fact that we're a predominantly white, generally prosperous first-world country. Of course those championing these crusades are usually not directly impacted anyway.

It's time we copped ourselves on and stopped letting those who think they "know better" make decisions that the rest of us have to live with the negative consequences of.

Its time we copped on and stopped letting those who think they "know better" making decisions that are against the morals of the vast majority of the people in Ireland.
The people who think they know better incarcerated 1% of the population
They allowed massive rates of sexual assault to women and girls happen, perpetrated by irish people;
They allowed, and still allow the state take control of womens bodies and healthcare.

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

No .

The gardai have repeatedly stated they don't have the resources to monitor them 24/7

They’re not monitored “24/7” in the US either.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

They’re not monitored “24/7” in the US either.

So much easier when they are doing real time followed by deportation is your a foreign national .

Not like our joke of a system .

What's with the obsession with the states ,from Gitmo to jaywalking .

They deport foreign criminals if they are not doing life already not like our life sentence and out in under 10

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

So much easier when they are doing real time followed by deportation is your a foreign national .

Not like our joke of a system .

What's with the obsession with the states ,from Gitmo to jaywalking .

They deport foreign criminals if they are not doing life already not like our life sentence and out in under 10

I don’t know your obsession with discussing foreign nationals when that’s explicitly not what this threads discussion is. This thread is discussing naturalized Irish citizens. We don’t deport naturalized American citizens for jaywalking or rape - except in the narrow case where it’s part and parcel of a dishonorable discharge from military service.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

I don’t know your obsession with discussing foreign nationals when that’s explicitly not what this threads discussion is. This thread is discussing naturalized Irish citizens..

Who just happen to be foreign born citizens of other countries and why people want to keep them here despite convictions for rape and other serious crimes .

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

Who just happen to be foreign born citizens of other countries and why people want to keep them here despite convictions for rape and other serious crimes .

Because they’re citizens. I’ve been clear I thought how I view it, and I wouldn’t export my problem across the fence after I saw fit to make them my citizen. The law, both ends of the law, apply to them, punishments and all. Aside from the practical issues as well I also don’t condone cruel and unusual punishment just because we aren’t the ones doing it with our own hands, worse still the possibility of them killing and raping elsewhere. Be damn sure id feel responsibility if I threw a rapist across a fence and they continued to rape people in some other country, maybe you don’t care what happens to innocent people in other countries.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

Be damn sure id feel responsibility if I threw a rapist across a fence and they continued to rape people in some other country, maybe you don’t care what happens to innocent people in other countries.

But yet were expected to put up with foreign imported criminals thrown over the fence to us .

So we're the ones being laughed good little Christian's taking in our rapists, murders , drug dealer and other scumbags .
Ah sure they won't send back they a guilt complex.


As shown by the link posted we gave citizenship to a foreign criminals who were given asylum in Italy and Also Italian citizenship both get 20 year sentences for serious drug dealing but walk onto here claimed asylum gets citizenship despite being on Interpol/Europol most wanted list .

Do you want them returned here too along with the Algerian terrorist who did the exact same despite being a convicted terrorist or how about russian Arthur the isis fighter ,the list goes on .

Where do you draw the line ,

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

But yet were expected to put up with foreign imported criminals thrown over the fence to us .

Well, if you deem fit to naturalize them, yes, you've gone to the length of certifying them as an Irish citizen. Own that, warts and all.

As shown by the link posted we gave citizenship to a foreign criminals who were given asylum in Italy and Also Italian citizenship both get 20 year sentences for serious drug dealing but walk onto here claimed asylum gets citizenship despite being on Interpol/Europol most wanted list .

Which makes a good launchboard for an argument for reviewing your naturalization process, but that's another matter than denaturalizing for a heinous crime.

Bob24

Varik wrote: »

So Ireland can't do something that's legal under international law because another country might do something that's illegal under the same.

Not what I said at all.

Rather:
1) Nigeria could have removed his citizenship first. A scenario whereby we are the ones creating a stateless person and have to take the consequences.
2) Or if we were first, Nigeria can decide to do it anyway and take the negative consequences. But if they refuse to take the guy it still is Ireland’s problem because we have a person here who as not citizenship and which no country will accept.

And to be clear, no-one is saying it would be glorious or without consequences for Nigeria to do these things; no double standard here.

At the end if the day, with either scenario it will have been all good and well to have shouted “remove his citizenship”, but will not have achieved much besides creating diplomatic problems.

Also, as I said if it was a once off thing related to someone seriously turning against the State and with a pre-agreement form the receiving country, it would probably be fine. But if it became a policy to do it for every criminal we would become monitored as a country and have a growing number of diplomatic issues.

And lastly, people in favour of such policy have carefully chosen to avoid addressing the point below which was made in my post you quoted and by other posters before, and makes it impossible to have a consistant policy:

Bob24 wrote: »

Not only you can’t force them to maintain [a second citizenship], but in some case they couldn’t maintain it even if they wanted to because the other country could cancel it (for some countries such as China or India the original citizenship is actually automatically lost upon becoming Irish).

JasonStatham

Just make the citizenship harder to get. PR after 10 years. Citizenship after a further 10 years.

5 years is too short. Most countries rely on 10 years

Bob24

And as more general comment, I think some people on this thread don’t understand what granting citizenship involves, and are confusing naturalisation with making someone a permanent resident (something which is much less of a commitment and easier to take away).

Bob24

JasonStatham wrote: »

Just make the citizenship harder to get. PR after 10 years. Citizenship after a further 10 years.

5 years is too short. Most countries rely on 10 years

It is too long in my opinion; but yes that's a logical suggestion for someone who thinks naturalised citizens are causing too many problems and actually wants make a practical and enforceable suggestion based on an actual understanding of how these things work.

20 years altogether is very long though. I wouldn't be against the idea of having some kind of "trial" period as a PR before citizenship can be applied for, but 5+5 at most (or maybe 3+5) rather than 10+10.

Also IMO rather than increasing the duration, what is more important is to do better background checks and better evaluations of the applicants. And not only related to security concerns but also related to integration and assimilation criteria. For exemple a person who has been here for 5 years but speaks perfect English (or Irish!), has many "native" friends, and knows a lot about Irish culture, history and politics ticks a lot more boxes for me than someone who has been here for 20 years, barely speaks English (and no Irish) and only hangs out with people from their country of origin.

McGiver

Bob24 wrote: »

So again, it is *before* granting citizenship that Ireland should exercise due diligence (and I am all in for saying getting citizenship shouldn’t be seen as some kind of automatic next administrative status after 5 years of residence as it kind of is today - for exemple we don’t even check something as basic as applicants for naturalisation having decent proficiency in one of our official languages). Once it is granted, it is too late to regret it and we have to deal with all our citizens good or bad.

This. Absolutely. Review the naturalisation process. Many countries in Europe require language test as part of the process.

Czechia for example has both knowledge and language test as part of the naturalisation. The knowledge test comprises of history, society and political system related questions.

1hnr79jr65

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Why only these crimes?

They are the easily identifiable off the top of my head. There are others i am sure i would also consider however i wasn't going to spend the night investigating all crime and listing which i find acceptable or not, especially as i was going to bed.

1hnr79jr65

Overheal wrote: »

What legal parties of the state, if it’s a war zone or run by local drug lords?

There are a lot of practical problems with what you propose.

As I said earlier in thread the crux of the issue for support of this idea is the held belief that the Irish criminal justice system is inadequate, and corrections do not limit repeat offense. If there was a strongly held faith in Irish criminal justice the thought of throwing your problems back over the fence would never come about.

Making them some other countries problem may be politically expedient but the better course of action is criminal justice reform and a critical review of how Ireland grants certificate of naturalization.

Thats the great thing about free thought and opinion, i disagree with your view and feel strongly about what i have debated. You and others are of course free to agree or disagree with me.

From the practical side of things, well as i said i have no sympathy for people who commit such scummy crimes, however if they not born here then they should have no right to reside here if they committed such crimes.

We all know our justice system is not going to be reformed any time soon or even far away.