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Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

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    #212
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Why are you conflating people granted asylum with deportations? I, or anyone else really, aren't interested in deporting genuine asylum claims. Rather in seeing deportation orders acted upon and immigration policy enforced.

    Asylum claims will consist of a small sliver of non EEA entries into a state and will consist of a minority of immigration violations and overstays etc.

    You can absolutely say that Ireland deports people at a far lower rate than similarly sized developed country. Our deportation figures only say nothing if you actively want them to say nothing. In absolute and relative terms, Ireland is not a deportation happy country. If you invite yourself in, the likelihood of you being given the road is very low indeed.

    It's possible my numbers weren't the best choice, but it was an attempt to make your numbers relative to something. The absolute number of deported people means f*** all by itself, and don't provide any grounds to arrive at your conclusion.

    I imagine Belgium accept far more non-EEA citizens than Ireland (refugees or asylum seekers or otherwise), and your numbers would need to be seen in that context.


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    #213
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    hognef wrote: »
    It's possible my numbers weren't the best choice, but it was an attempt to make your numbers relative to something. The absolute number of deported people means f*** all by itself, and don't provide any grounds to arrive at your conclusion.

    I imagine Belgium accept far more non-EEA citizens than Ireland (refugees or asylum seekers or otherwise), and your numbers would need to be seen in that context.

    Here's some context for you. From 2014 to 2018, only (approx) 1 in 5 deportation orders were enforced. The minister for justice and INIS can't tell us about the other 4 out of 5. They don't know if they're in the state or not and don't appear to want to know or track if these people are exiting the state as other states do.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/

    I suspect you'll make the case that this is a satisfactory state of affairs.


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    #214
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Here's some context for you. From 2014 to 2018, only (approx) 1 in 5 deportation orders were enforced. The minister for justice and INIS can't tell us about the other 4 out of 5. They don't know if they're in the state or not and don't appear to want to know or track if these people are exiting the state as other states do.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/

    I suspect you'll make the case that this is a satisfactory state of affairs.

    Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

    How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?


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    #215
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    hognef wrote: »
    Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

    How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?

    When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.


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    #216
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.

    If you say so.


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    #217
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hognef wrote: »
    Not at all. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that your numbers didn't go any way towards proving that you're right.

    How does the 1 in 5 compare to other similarly-populated countries?

    Hold on a second. You're only arguing over the numbers, rather than his statement? (since you're not arguing that he's wrong). Um, seriously?


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    #218
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Hold on a second. You're only arguing over the numbers, rather than his statement? (since you're not arguing that he's wrong). Um, seriously?

    Seriously.


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    #219
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ok :D


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    #220
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    hognef wrote: »
    If you say so.

    I guess you're not interested in the fact that the minister of justice and INIS can't tell the Oireachtas where 4 out of 5 people that have been issued with deportation orders are.

    The subtext on this is, I'd argue, is you're trying to soft-peddle the fact that Ireland doesn't do a particularly good job at tracking illegal migration and even when it does, enforces it lightly. Meanwhile, those of a particular bent try to characterise the system as one where deportation orders are issued arbitrarily. The exact opposite is true. If you want to go under the radar as an irregular migrant, Ireland is one of the best places to invite yourself to.


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    #221
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes, would vote in favor, cant see it losing tbh.
    Great idea for a referendum.


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    #222
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    what happens if someone is here years, gets married, has kids and then commits a crime?

    Do you just strip them of citizenship and deport them?

    They wouldn't have citizenship, thats the point.


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    #223
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    what happens if someone is here years, gets married, has kids and then commits a crime?

    Do you just strip them of citizenship and deport them?
    Yup


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    #224
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I guess you're not interested in the fact that the minister of justice and INIS can't tell the Oireachtas where 4 out of 5 people that have been issued with deportation orders are.

    The subtext on this is, I'd argue, is you're trying to soft-peddle the fact that Ireland doesn't do a particularly good job at tracking illegal migration and even when it does, enforces it lightly. Meanwhile, those of a particular bent try to characterise the system as one where deportation orders are issued arbitrarily. The exact opposite is true. If you want to go under the radar as an irregular migrant, Ireland is one of the best places to invite yourself to.

    Never said I wasn't interested or that that fact wasn't interesting, but you're the one who were using incomplete facts to prove that Ireland does a worse job than other countries. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you keep stating Ireland is different, without backing it up with anything useful.

    In fact, you're probably right that what Ireland is doing is not good enough (after all, Ireland isn't exactly good at tracking its own citizens either - there's no national registry of people, we still rely on regular censuses, for example, while some countries know who are present to such an extent that they've done away with censuses), but, from what you've shown, you can't conclusively say that what Ireland is doing is significantly worse than other countries.


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    #225
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    hognef wrote: »
    Never said I wasn't interested or that that fact wasn't interesting, but you're the one who were using incomplete facts to prove that Ireland does a worse job than other countries. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you keep stating Ireland is different, without backing it up with anything useful.

    In fact, you're probably right that what Ireland is doing is not good enough (after all, Ireland isn't exactly good at tracking its own citizens either - there's no national registry of people, we still rely on regular censuses, for example, while some countries know who are present to such an extent that they've done away with censuses), but, from what you've shown, you can't conclusively say that what Ireland is doing is significantly worse than other countries.

    Again, that's a soft-peddle. The rate of enforced deportations relative to deportation orders issues has been presented to you (as well as Charlie Flanagan admitting in the Dáil he doesn't know where most of the people who are subject to orders are), and the number of deportations by similar countries. We deport an unusually low amount of people given the influx of non EEA citizens to Ireland, which is no different from the influx Denmark / Finland / Norway have experienced.

    'Conclusive' is a foggy a value judgement, I don't need to reach that standard to know there's a problem here. I suspect you know there is as well, but for whatever reason, you don't want to say it.


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    #226
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Again, that's a soft-peddle. The rate of enforced deportations relative to deportation orders issues has been presented to you (as well as Charlie Flanagan admitting in the Dáil he doesn't know where most of the people who are subject to orders are), and the number of deportations by similar countries. We deport an unusually low amount of people given the influx of non EEA citizens to Ireland, which is no different from the influx Denmark / Finland / Norway have experienced.

    'Conclusive' is a foggy a value judgement, I don't need to reach that standard to know there's a problem here. I suspect you know there is as well, but for whatever reason, you don't want to say it.

    I've agreed that there's probably an issue here, but you're the one who is repeatedly "comparing" with other countries. You're doing it again here. By what metric are our deportation numbers "unusually low"? How many should we deport to be on a par with other countries? Do you know for sure that our "influx of non-EEA citizens" is no different from those other countries? For how long has this been true? Do you know for sure that those countries don't in fact have 10 times as many people "eligible" for deportation? Do you know for sure that Ireland receives as many people (per capita) from the countries most prone to deportation as the other countries?


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    #227
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    hognef wrote: »
    I've agreed that there's probably an issue here, but you're the one who is repeatedly "comparing" with other countries. You're doing it again here. By what metric are our deportation numbers "unusually low"? How many should we deport to be on a par with other countries? Do you know for sure that our "influx of non-EEA citizens" is no different from those other countries? For how long has this been true? Do you know for sure that those countries don't in fact have 10 times as many people "eligible" for deportation? Do you know for sure that Ireland receives as many people (per capita) from the countries most prone to deportation as the other countries?


    Take a look yourself...

    https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=migr_eipre&lang=en

    None of the countries I've referenced detect x10 the amount of illegals. In fact we're in line with all of them. And all of them deport at significantly higher rates than Ireland.

    If you don't think we have a definitive enforcement problem after going through the above stats, well... I don't know what to say to you


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    #228
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Take a look yourself...

    https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=migr_eipre&lang=en

    None of the countries I've referenced detect x10 the amount of illegals. In fact we're in line with all of them. And all of them deport at significantly higher rates than Ireland.

    If you don't think we have a definitive enforcement problem after going through the above stats, well... I don't know what to say to you

    You're getting placed now. But...

    Belgium 2200 deported you said.
    Ireland 292 deported you said.

    Your link shows, for 2019:
    Belgium 17585 illegals detected
    Ireland 1955 illegals detected

    That's not far off a 10:1 ratio now, is it?

    Again, combining the numbers, it would appear that Belgium deported 1 of 8 illegals, while Ireland deported 1 of 7.

    Are you still convinced Belgium is doing significantly better than Ireland?

    Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, just that your initial numbers did nothing to support your claim. The latest link appears to have relevant numbers and could probably help your case. Will done.


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    #229
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Yurt! wrote: »
    When a country like Norway (roughly the same size population Ireland) are effecting more deportations in one month than Ireland does in a year, I think we don't need a hell of a lot of data to draw some obvious conclusions.

    That's because they allow 10 times more in. Not a rocket science. You are using the numbers out of context. Either willingly to manipulate or unwillingly due to ignorance.

    To achieve similar absolute numbers as Norway, Ireland would have to deport basically everyone. And that would be then relatively several times more than Norway do.


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    #230
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    They wouldn't have citizenship, thats the point.
    That is not OP's suggestion. Different topic altogether (and generally supported idea I'd say).

    Removing acquired citizenship and creating stateless persons is a nonsense.


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    #231
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    A naturalised citizen who went off to join ISIS has had his citizenship revoked. A very welcome development.
    A man who left Ireland to fight for Isis in Syria in 2013 has had his citizenship revoked by Helen McEntee, the justice minister.

    Alexandr Bekmirzaev, who obtained Irish citizenship in 2010, 11 years after immigrating from Belarus, is the first person to be affected since the Department of Justice put in place a mechanism to strip people of their status last year.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-fighter-alexandr-bekmirzaev-is-stripped-of-irish-citizenship-wr6c73f50


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