Are Sinn Féin anti-Catholic?

breezy1985

Zebra3 wrote: »

Poor priests?

What a charming way for that scumbag priest to describe rapists.

He didn't actually say poor those were my words. His were "fallen"

Risteard81

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Maybe mcguiness felt the need to pray and confess to all his plotting and bombing of innocent people. Hardly carrying out God's message and the teachings of the Bible now in fairness. The complete opposite.

More likely seeking forgiveness for all the Volunteers he had murdered as an extremely high-level British agent.

James Brown

Risteard81 wrote: »

More likely seeking forgiveness for all the Volunteers he had murdered as an extremely high-level British agent.

So the IRA aren't responsible but British operatives. Pretty damning.

ILoveYourVibes

Everyone should be anti the catholic church in this country considering its history here. Anti catholics as individuals ...well ..some catholics are awful people. I don't mind the nice catholics ..but they seem to be quiet enough.

The bullying of Fintan by the likes of the national party ..is unacceptable.

If the national party and Iona is what you mean by catholic..then yes i would say SF is anti Iona.

Rezident

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sf will be whatever the ‘most vunderable’ in society want them to be. Its about picking up the low hanging fruit votes.

I've never seen the left-wing referred to like that before.

breezy1985

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Everyone should be anti the catholic church in this country considering its history here. Anti catholics as individuals ...well ..some catholics are awful people. I don't mind the nice catholics ..but they seem to be quiet enough.

The bullying of Fintan by the likes of the national party ..is unacceptable.

If the national party and Iona is what you mean by catholic..then yes i would say SF is anti Iona.

A handy rule for me in a referendum if Im not sure is to just vote the opposite way to the Iona Institute

James Brown

Rezident wrote: »

I've never seen the left-wing referred to like that before.

Party will garner support by representing people from the general public. Ground breaking stuff. It's what all parties claim to do but if this is true well done them. And the most vulnerable? They need the most representation.
Always found it fitting that the most religious of parties in any country were either the most hateful or dismissive of groups that didn't fit the narrative. That's the churches M.O.

Hamsterchops

LuasSimon wrote: »

Are Sinn Féin anti-Catholic?

Of course not, but isn't it a great excuse to start-up yet another Sinn Fein thread to add to the plethora of other Sinn Fein threads :cool:

Mad_maxx

John Hutton wrote: »

Elements of SF have become quite woke and love the identity politics stuff. They have abandoned class based politics.

Warfield was making fun of tbe Pope. Fine if you think that is ok, but pretending that any criticism of the picture is homophobic is ridiculous. Sure, homophobes have used the picture as an excuse to engage in terrible attacks, but criticism of the picture is not in and of itself homophobic.

There's a weird double think going on, where it's commendable to celebrate and attend Muslim festivals in Croke Park, but the Catholic church and catholics must be attacked and belittled at every turn. What is going on?

No great mystery

Muslims feature on the progressive lefts sacred cow list

Catholics and Catholicism certainly does not

The PC left are extremely unsophisticated in many ways

James Brown

Mad_maxx wrote: »

No great mystery

Muslims feature on the progressive lefts sacred cow list

Catholics and Catholicism certainly does not

The PC left are extremely unsophisticated in many ways

You're confusing equality and human rights with a pro Muslim anti Christian fantasy.
Speaking up for one is not attacking the other. It's a very naive and privileged perspective to see looking after those who need like an attack.

Mad_maxx

Bowie wrote: »

You're confusing equality and human rights with a pro Muslim anti Christian fantasy.
Speaking up for one is not attacking the other. It's a very naive and privileged perspective to see looking after those who need like an attack.

The progressives hold Muslims and Islam to a much lower standard than Catholicism

touts

Sinn Fein are communist. Communists are anti religion so of course Sinn Fein are anti Catholic.

Annasopra

touts wrote: »

Sinn Fein are communist. Communists are anti religion so of course Sinn Fein are anti Catholic.

Ah I always find this ****e about SF being marxists and communists hilarious. Newsflash. They split from the marxists in the 80s.

John Hutton

Zebra3 wrote: »

The same church that hid their crimes away and denied everything?

Moved child rapists around so they'd be free to f.ck more kids?

The same church that wouldn't cough up for their crimes?

When did the church ask AGS to prosecute all those who covered up the crimes against children?

Oh, but the church offered forgiveness, wow... :rolleyes:

A criminal organisation that exploits people with their lies.

This is a very dishonest line of discussion. You snip one part of what I wrote and pile on the misplaced outrage.


The argument was made that the church was bad for denouncing things that they thought were wrong.


I pointed out that other people do this to, most notably today where people are "cancelled" for saying the "wrong" things, for voicing their "wrong" opinions.


I then observed (truthfully, if rather glibly) that if the people denounced by the church "repented" and sought forgiveness they would get it.


Today, there seems no way back for those who are "cancelled", even if they say they are sorry.



At no stage did I say, or even imply, that any evil acts committed by the church were ok or excusable because Christianity preaches forgiveness.

James Brown

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The progressives hold Muslims and Islam to a much lower standard than Catholicism

Can you show your work?
You seem to be of the idea that helping one takes away from another. Equality doesnt work like that but to quote, "When You’re Accustomed To Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression".

Dyr

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah I always find this ****e about SF being marxists and communists hilarious. Newsflash. They split from the marxists in the 80s.

They split from the Marxists in the 60s not the 80s. Pretty basic stuff.

They're now just The Workers Party part deux, a bunch of far left carpet baggers who see the Rpublican tradition as a vehicle to get them into power

John Hutton

breezy1985 wrote: »

You leave out the parts where the church were sending letters and speaking from the pulpit to gardai and politicians threatening to destroy their careers and most of the country being catholic does not excuse the bullying of the ones who were not. Also I dont care how many of the country were catholic there is no excuse for the rape and beatings they handed out

As for the "if they said that about ..." nonsense this always comes up as there seems always to be way more people saying this than people actually being "woke" on forums and just to clear up my personal views I think there is alot wrong with the teachings of Islam but I think its pointless us joking or doing much about it as its something that they need to sort out themselves like we did with church and state over the years and I completely supported the likes of Charlie Hedbo during that controversy.

And he does not need to qualify slagging the pope by then slagging the rest. A Man U fan doesnt have to follow up saying he hates Liverpool by saying by the way i also hate Man C, Chelsea etc.

I think this line of thinking and argument is very regrettable because it involves generating a boogeyman.



The majority of people in Ireland were catholic and respected the opinion of the catholic church, which is why it carried so much weight. The Catholic church built up this respect over centuries through its work, particularly during the course of the oppression of Ireland and its (catholic) inhabitants, especially during the penal days.



On moral issues, that majority agreed with the church and looked to it for moral guidance, which it gave. The catholic church did not impose itself on society (like the Protestant established church did) but rather it was elevated to its position of moral authority and power by the people themselves DESPITE the brutal efforts of the authorities over the course of centuries.



None of the above makes any judgement on whether this was good or bad.



Marx famously wrote (only to be misquoted and misunderstood ever since) that religion is the opium of the masses, i.e. of the people, not forced upon the people.



So to pin everything that happened on some "evil" church that swooped in and took power against the wishes of the people is a gross misrepresentation of history which abdicates everyone else of any responsibility for what happened - the state and indeed the general public. If we do this we learn nothing about ourselves or how to do things better in the future - we just blame a succession of boogeymen and move on the same as ever. Which is sad.

James Brown

John Hutton wrote: »

....If we do this we learn nothing about ourselves or how to do things better in the future - we just blame a succession of boogeymen and move on the same as ever. Which is sad.

We are of course complicit in allowing the church do what it did. We've leaned from it and hopefully have moved on.

YellowBucket

I’m not going to make this about SF, but a lot of Irish Republican values are about anti-oppression, civil rights and human rights. It’s always been an enormous mistake to describe republicanism as Catholic and unionism as Protestant. It’s just those two labels happened to be lazy shorthand in Northern Ireland.

Plenty of our most republican figures over the last couple of centuries have been Protestant and the Catholic Church was never a fan of republicanism or Irish nationalism until it suited its objectives of wielding power in the earlier days of the 26 counties.

So I would say over the years Irish republicanism will tend to take a view of the world that would push towards more rights. At the moment the ultra hardline extreme religious types online are pretty much the opposite to that, be they catholic or evangelicals in the USA and they’re certainly not going to be on the side of groups that are aggressively against LGBT rights or who are, in some cases, just xénophobes and racists who’ve decided to drape themselves in our flag, claiming it represents something very ugly.

landofthetree

Sinn Fein are Marxist. Always have been.



Past splits in the early 70s and mid 80s were over other issues.

Look at the people Sinn Fein sit with in the European parliament.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_United_Left%E2%80%93Nordic_Green_Left

John Hutton

Bowie wrote: »

We are of course complicit in allowing the church do what it did. We've leaned from it and hopefully have moved on.

We are getting closer, but still missing the central point - we need to discuss and learn from what society perpetrated. It was far more than mere complicity. We shouldn't reduce it to a basic narrative of "Catholic church was bad, look what they did to us, glad that's over now".


All of civil and professional society did these things - if you just blame the church and dig no deeper than that you are inviting similar to happen again.

breezy1985

John Hutton wrote: »

I think this line of thinking and argument is very regrettable because it involves generating a boogeyman.



The majority of people in Ireland were catholic and respected the opinion of the catholic church, which is why it carried so much weight. The Catholic church built up this respect over centuries through its work, particularly during the course of the oppression of Ireland and its (catholic) inhabitants, especially during the penal days.



On moral issues, that majority agreed with the church and looked to it for moral guidance, which it gave. The catholic church did not impose itself on society (like the Protestant established church did) but rather it was elevated to its position of moral authority and power by the people themselves DESPITE the brutal efforts of the authorities over the course of centuries.



None of the above makes any judgement on whether this was good or bad.



Marx famously wrote (only to be misquoted and misunderstood ever since) that religion is the opium of the masses, i.e. of the people, not forced upon the people.



So to pin everything that happened on some "evil" church that swooped in and took power against the wishes of the people is a gross misrepresentation of history which abdicates everyone else of any responsibility for what happened - the state and indeed the general public. If we do this we learn nothing about ourselves or how to do things better in the future - we just blame a succession of boogeymen and move on the same as ever. Which is sad.

I agree many people agreed with the church having an elevated status but once they got that status they beat people bullied people and raped loads of kids. Once these facts became known and they were known long before the Smith scandal anyone who was still complicit in church power was no better than a fascist.

And many in the Catholic majority only played along because they had to for fear of being ostracized which is why church numbers took a nose dive even amongst the older generations as soon as the fear went away.

And you are misquoting Marx his comment referred to the peoples addiction to religion despite it being bad. Scared to part like a beaten spouse from an abusive partner

touts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah I always find this ****e about SF being marxists and communists hilarious. Newsflash. They split from the marxists in the 80s.

That'll come as a surprise to their members and leadership. They are Marxist to the core and always have been. It's a fundamental element of their policies right after a unified Ireland.

breezy1985

John Hutton wrote: »

We are getting closer, but still missing the central point - we need to discuss and learn from what society perpetrated. It was far more than mere complicity. We shouldn't reduce it to a basic narrative of "Catholic church was bad, look what they did to us, glad that's over now".


All of civil and professional society did these things - if you just blame the church and dig no deeper than that you are inviting similar to happen again.

You are clearly pro church and for political parties being tied to Catholicism so I would say it is you who are inviting the same to happen again eg.the mass rape of children

landofthetree

I criticize SF for a lot of stuff but I think they reflect the general hypocrisy of around 60% of current population. The other parties as well.

Cultural Catholics who bash the church yet still go to the church for baptism,first communion, confirmation,marriage etc.

I can't for the life of me understand why John and Mary go to the church to get married and has their children baptised,get first communion, confirmation etc Yet they don't believe in the churches position on abortion, divorce, family planning etc. It's really just a day out and traditional?

breezy1985

landofthetree wrote: »

I criticize SF for a lot of stuff but I think they reflect the general hypocrisy of around 60% of current population. The other parties as well.

Cultural Catholics who bash the church yet still go to the church for baptism,first communion, confirmation,marriage etc.

I can't for the life of me understand why John and Mary go to the church to get married and has their children baptised,get first communion, confirmation etc Yet they don't believe in the churches position on abortion, divorce, family planning etc. It's really just a day out and traditional?

I always tell.my friends if you believe in god but don't believe in everything the pope says then you should find another religion because papal infallibility is just that and you cannot disagree.
But no way the average Irish person would switch to a different Christianity because it's actually all about tradition and natiolism and not god at all with the Irish faith

Odhinn

Bambi wrote: »

They split from the Marxists in the 60s not the 80s. Pretty basic stuff.

They're now just The Workers Party part deux, a bunch of far left carpet baggers who see the Rpublican tradition as a vehicle to get them into power

Ahh heor.

James Brown

John Hutton wrote: »

We are getting closer, but still missing the central point - we need to discuss and learn from what society perpetrated. It was far more than mere complicity. We shouldn't reduce it to a basic narrative of "Catholic church was bad, look what they did to us, glad that's over now".


All of civil and professional society did these things - if you just blame the church and dig no deeper than that you are inviting similar to happen again.

You'd have a point except the church actively covered up for the perpetrators. Its only in very recent times they begin grudgingly to take responsibility. Would they have continued if not called out on it? I'd say yes. It wasnt news to the institution or elements of the state either.

John Hutton

breezy1985 wrote: »

You are clearly pro church and for political parties being tied to Catholicism so I would say it is you who are inviting the same to happen again eg.the mass rape of children

I am most certainly not for political parties being tied to Catholicism. Where have I said this?

But let's explore what you are saying further. You think that Catholics and Catholicism automatically leads to sexual abuse?

Do you not think it more the case that unaccountable power tends to lead towards abuse? Or is it uniquely catholic?

John Hutton

Bowie wrote: »

You'd have a point except the church actively covered up for the perpetrators. Its only in very recent times they begin grudgingly to take responsibility. Would they have continued if not called out on it? I'd say yes. It wasnt news to the institution or elements of the state either.

"It wasn't news' to those who asked the church to do what they should be doing (social welfare, schools etc.). When does being aware of something and allowing it to continue become "covering it up"?