How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

I mean, picketing the Dáil yesterday for more salary when they haven't set foot inside their places of work in 6 months??

Have you a link to that?

Honestly I didn't come across or hear about this picket. Wasn't on any of the news bulletins I saw yesterday and doesn't appear to be on any of the Union websites so would appreciate some information.

jimmytwotimes 2013

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Former HSE boss has piled in on the masks in secondary debate and firmly on the they should wear them side.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/clear-cut-case-face-masks-required-secondary-schools-tony-obrien-1056136?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1596615866

Infringement on their rights brigade on the way

The Unbearables

khalessi wrote: »

Denmark also used every available buliding to school the students, football stadiums, hotels, museusms and graveyards and they did not bring primary and secondary back at the same time as primary were using some of the secondary schools.

Very different approach here. Here we use the feck it will be grand approach

Most people don't want to hear that. They just want their kids back in school and out of their hair and feck the consequences. It will fall apart very rapidly indeed if schools go back in a few weeks with the current plan.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Denmark also used every available buliding to school the students, football stadiums, hotels, museusms and graveyards and they did not bring primary and secondary back at the same time as primary were using some of the secondary schools.

Very different approach here. Here we use the feck it will be grand approach

Denmark sent kids back after a month. Countries gradually went back in spring. In Ireland it was decided no going back till end of August. if we wanted kids back gradually we should start at the beginning of August or beginning of June till end of June (my preferred option).

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

Denmark sent kids back after a month. Countries gradually went back in spring. In Ireland it was decided no going back till end of August. if we wanted kids back gradually we should start at the beginning of August or beginning of June till end of June (my preferred option).

Well done Denmark for doing it safely and when they did 47000 parents did not send their children back immediately.

In Ireland we had our peak at a later stage and all of that was decided by NPEHT and Dept. Do you have an issue with NPHET or DES?

Blondini

meeeeh wrote: »

if we wanted kids back gradually we should start at the beginning of August or beginning of June till end of June (my preferred option).

If you think I'm going to mix with a load of diseased little snotrags during me well earned teacher holidays you need yer head examined missus. Hrmmmmph!

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Well done Denmark for doing it safely and when they did 47000 parents did not send their children back immediately.

In Ireland we had our peak at a later stage and all of that was decided by NPEHT and Dept. Do you have an issue with NPHET or DES?

It's either or for me. You can't have both. I would prefer gradual return in August, I think that would be more prudent option but I don't think kids should loose even more time with gradual return in September.

Ireland didn't deal with the first wave particularly well in a lot of ways, whose fault is that could be investigated. I certainly hope the testing is not the mess it was two months ago but I don't think NPHET or DES can be blamed for that.

combat14

?

combat14 wrote: »

who can teachers, parents, students sue if covid 19 health and safety guidelines not implemented correctly .. and people start to fall ill or possibly die from this known risk

the principal, BOM, ETBs, Dept. of Education, Minsiter for Education ...?!

any ideas

Who under normal circumstances can you sue if you catch any known potentially serious infectious disease and pass it on to someone vulnerable?

meeeeh

Blondini wrote: »

If you think I'm going to mix with a load of diseased little snotrags during me well earned teacher holidays you need yer head examined missus. Hrmmmmph!

So full time in September it is.

Bananaleaf

elefant wrote: »

Has this actually happened somewhere? I'm not being argumentative, just genuinely curious.

I don't think it has, but then again a lot of European schools are on holiday at the moment, no? I was making the point that IF Irish schools will have to close in a couple of months, I'm sure we won't be the only ones having to do so and therefore it will result in, "OMG they had to close in (insert country here), how did our teachers not see this coming?"

Also not being argumentative, but I just had a look at the Netherlands compared to Ireland on the worlometers site. Maybe I'm analysing the data wrong, but your case numbers are steadily rising since June. Netherlands had 300odd cases two days ago and 400 odd yesterday. When did your schools reopen?

Also, to begin with Ireland has more active cases per 1m of population than Netherlands does, so we are opening our schools with a higher percentage of infection in the country than Netherlands.

meeeeh wrote: »

I smiled when I saw complaints how some people won't be able to see their at risk relatives. That's hardly unique, I don't know when I will be able to travel to see my parents next and they don't know when they will see their grandkids. It's something we have to deal with because of our jobs or because of where we live.

Don't assume others are not making sacrifices in their life and teachers are somehow unique.

This is the most unashamed anti-teacher post I have seen on this thread. Wow. Just wow. No matter what context you try to attribute to your smile, it's just wrong.

You've said it's not a happy smile, so this means you're not glad that teachers have ill parents.

But what's with the ironic smile? Why is it ironic that we would have sick relatives the same as anyone else? You do realise that we are people as well as teachers, don't you? We don't have special powers

What's with the bitter smile? Why would you need to be bitter about us mentioning (I've looked back, can't find the COMPLAINING that you speak of) that we have sick relatives?

Literally nobody complained about the issue of not seeing relatives and nobody said that it was unique to teachers.

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Even if it was the class being split into 2, I would be happy enough with that.

Lol. So would we!!!

Blondini wrote: »

The delicious irony of this thread is that the resident teacher-haters, who have such a low opinion of teachers, are relishing the fact that they are about to put the care and health of their precious children into the hands of ... Yes you guessed it... teachers. Love it. :pac:

Anyway, as you were....

I know! Lol. I'm always amused at how when the kids are in school it's always 'stupid teacher' this or that. "His French teacher is useless" "I'd do a better job myself" "They do nothing in that Science class". So why are ye sending them all back to us if it's that bad????

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Have you a link to that?

Honestly I didn't come across or hear about this picket. Wasn't on any of the news bulletins I saw yesterday and doesn't appear to be on any of the Union websites so would appreciate some information.

My apologies, someone had posted it here yesterday but it looks like it's been removed. Seems the picket was in February:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-seeks-agreement-on-pay-as-state-plans-to-hire-1-000-teachers-1.4320921

Really tone deaf time for the ASTI to be splitting hairs about this though.

Blondini

meeeeh wrote: »

So full time in September it is.

For some... nobody I care about will be near a school! Ya think I'm stoooopid or something!

downthemiddle

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

In”fringe”ment on their rights brigade on the way

I see what you did there!!!

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

My apologies, someone had posted it here yesterday but it looks like it's been removed. Seems the picket was in February:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-seeks-agreement-on-pay-as-state-plans-to-hire-1-000-teachers-1.4320921

Really tone deaf time to be splitting hairs about this though.

So no protest then.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

My apologies, someone had posted it here yesterday but it looks like it's been removed. Seems the picket was in February:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-seeks-agreement-on-pay-as-state-plans-to-hire-1-000-teachers-1.4320921

Really tone deaf time to be splitting hairs about this though.

February before any closures? You are a joke talking about splitting hairs.

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

My apologies, someone had posted it here yesterday but it looks like it's been removed. Seems the picket was in February:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-seeks-agreement-on-pay-as-state-plans-to-hire-1-000-teachers-1.4320921

Really tone deaf time to be splitting hairs about this though.

Yeah, hate when people split hairs over things that didn't happen.

Pesky facts!

meeeeh

Bananaleaf wrote: »

You've said it's not a happy smile, so this means you're not glad that teachers have ill parents.

No the smile was welcome to my world. Btw my father has cancer too, the only difference is he is also in another country. So yes you can interpret my smile as I'm sorry but you will have to deal with it.

Lillyfae

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I don't think it has, but then again a lot of European schools are on holiday at the moment, no? I was making the point that IF Irish schools will have to close in a couple of months, I'm sure we won't be the only ones having to do so and therefore it will result in, "OMG they had to close in (insert country here), how did our teachers not see this coming?"

Agree with all of this, the schools should have trialled part time on site education before the holidays, before the numbers started rising etc etc. It should have been the priority above tourism and leisure and it wasn't. Now the situation with the R number in a few weeks will I imagine make it impossible to reopen the schools.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Also not being argumentative, but I just had a look at the Netherlands compared to Ireland on the worlometers site. Maybe I'm analysing the data wrong, but your case numbers are steadily rising since June. Netherlands had 300odd cases two days ago and 400 odd today. When did your schools reopen?

The primary schools and daycares were never closed. I won't stop repeating this. They were back full time from June (6th iirc). The secondary schools didn't reopen before the holidays, but we have a pretty robust broadband infrastructure and no teacher/child would have been without their own device so classes were live since March. At a guess I would think that the reopening of bars and restaurants in May, and the easing of travel restrictions are the major factors in the increase in numbers.

Lillyfae

For the career hecklers, I've edited my post. The ASTI should imo be focusing on make sure that their members have the resources and infrastructure to be able to return to work in the safest manner possible as soon as possible, and not whinging about something that is happening anyway in October.

Bananaleaf

meeeeh wrote: »

No the smile was happy to my world. Btw my father has cancer too, the only difference is he is also in another country. So yes you can interpret my smile as I'm sorry but you will have to deal with it.

To be honest, a smile, a comment, an opinion, an argument on an internet forum ........ none of it changes the fact that your dad has cancer and my dad has cancer. And none of it changes the fact that we are living with Covid-19. And none of it will change what happens in September because no matter what you or I think, we will be doing what the department and government tell us to do.

I am sorry that your dad isn't well and I am sorry you are not in the same country as him. My brother lives abroad and I know my dad's illness has been much harder for him because of that added fact.

I'm guilty of this myself - sometimes we get so bogged down with disputing with one another that we forget two important facts:

1. I know it has become a cliché, but we are all in this together
2. None of us have the magic solution because nobody even fully understands this virus

While the teachers and parents are busy attacking one another and defending themselves, who is pointing fingers at the government? NOBODY. Just how they want it.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

For the career hecklers, I've edited my post. The ASTI should imo be focusing on make sure that their members have the resources and infrastructure to be able to return to work in the safest manner possible as soon as possible, and not whinging about something that is happening anyway in October.

No it isn't happening in October. That is an across the board 2% and it part of an existing deal. Nothing to do with pay parity.

At secondary level pay parity and more importantly the casualisation of teaching contracts is a huge reason why people leave the profession and the cause of the resultant recruitment crisis.

Lillyfae

Bananaleaf wrote: »

To be honest, a smile, a comment, an opinion, an argument on an internet forum ........ none of it changes the fact that your dad has cancer and my dad has cancer. And none of it changes the fact that we are living with Covid-19. And none of it will change what happens in September because no matter what you or I think, we will be doing what the department and government tell us to do.

I am sorry that your dad isn't well and I am sorry you are not in the same country as him. My brother lives abroad and I know my dad's illness has been much harder for him because of that added fact.

I'm guilty of this myself - sometimes we get so bogged down with disputing with one another that we forget two important facts:

1. I know it has become a cliché, but we are all in this together
2. None of us have the magic solution because nobody even fully understands this virus

While the teachers and parents are busy attacking one another and defending themselves, who is pointing fingers at the government? NOBODY. Just how they want it.

*Hugs* Bananaleaf, and of course meeeeh. You are a very coherent poster and I really respect your views, clearheadedness and willingness to listen. I'm very sorry about your loved ones. I'm missing mine very much too.

Alrigghtythen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

No it isn't happening in October. That is an across the board 2% and it part of an existing deal. Nothing to do with pay parity.

At secondary level pay parity and more importantly the casualisation of teaching contracts is a huge reason why people leave the profession and the cause of the resultant recruitment crisis.

36,953 starting salary just ain't enough. Its up from 30702 in 2012.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

I've noticed that some posters regularly refer to themselves as "we" and to others as "they" (when there's no obvious explanation as to who 'they' are).

Unless you mean the royal we or are speaking as a leader of profession then it says a lot about the mindset.

It's like a way to abdicate responsibility or blame, a defensiveness that some seem to have from any opposing opinion.

Maybe its just mob mentality, I don't know.
There is no we or they, but the impression of a divide clearly exists.

wirelessdude01

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

36,953 starting salary just ain't enough. Its up from 30702 in 2012.

I'll let the secondary teachers fill you in on the situation at secondary with regards to hours due to the casualistion.

Primary level I'm still an LPT due to when I started.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'll let the secondary teachers fill you in on the situation at secondary with regards to hours due to the casualistion.

If there are 500 children in a school one year and 400 the next there should be flexibility with regard to moving teachers to a school where there were 400 students last year and 500 the next. It's supply and demand. The children are the most important people in the school, not the teachers.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Primary level I'm still an LPT due to when I started.

Didn't you know the salary when you went in? Of course people who have seniority to you are earning more. Is it fair? Not always, no. But we're all being screwed over by the generation that went before us, that was the essence of the global economic crisis. If school buildings aren't fit for purpose and there is a shortage of funds for even the most basic of resources in schools, the taxpayer is going to find it hard to justify a salary increase for a public sector worker who's starting salary is already massively overinflated at €36,000+. Fight for adequate resources first and I guarantee you'll find more public support for pay parity.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Didn't you know the salary when you went in? Of course people who have seniority to you are earning more. Is it fair? Not always, no. But we're all being screwed over by the generation that went before us, that was the essence of the global economic crisis. If school buildings aren't fit for purpose and there is a shortage of funds for even the most basic of resources in schools, the taxpayer is going to find it hard to justify a salary increase for a public sector worker who's starting salary is already massively overinflated at €36,000+. Fight for adequate resources first and I guarantee you'll find more public support for pay parity.

Don't start an argument over something you don't understand.

elefant

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I don't think it has, but then again a lot of European schools are on holiday at the moment, no? I was making the point that IF Irish schools will have to close in a couple of months, I'm sure we won't be the only ones having to do so and therefore it will result in, "OMG they had to close in (insert country here), how did our teachers not see this coming?"

Also not being argumentative, but I just had a look at the Netherlands compared to Ireland on the worlometers site. Maybe I'm analysing the data wrong, but your case numbers are steadily rising since June. Netherlands had 300odd cases two days ago and 400 odd yesterday. When did your schools reopen?

The primary schools re-opened for the general population gradually from the beginning of May, and then fully by the beginning of June. The number of cases is increasing a lot here now, but as far as I can tell this has only happened in past couple of weeks and seem to be down to local clusters from holidaying and home meet-ups. I don't think there was any discernible increase after the primary schools re-opened.

I'm reading the debate around schools re-opening in Ireland with interest. The Dutch government have pretty much thrown all their weight behind the study findings that children can catch it but don't spread it to adults or amongst each other. And they've also now lifted any distancing requirements for secondary students for the new school year too.

We'll see how things pan out...

caveat emptor

Good article summing up information that came out last week.
Goes through what we now know and what we still don't know.
worth a read.

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1290969978213216262?s=20

wirelessdude01

elefant wrote: »

The primary schools re-opened for the general population gradually from the beginning of May, and then fully by the beginning of June. The number of cases is increasing a lot here now, but as far as I can tell this has only happened in past couple of weeks and seem to be down to local clusters from holidaying and home meet-ups. I don't think there was any discernible increase after the primary schools re-opened.

I'm reading the debate around schools re-opening in Ireland with interest. The Dutch government have pretty much thrown all their weight behind the study findings that children can catch it but don't spread it to adults or amongst each other. And they've also now lifted any distancing requirements for secondary students for the new school year too.

We'll see how things pan out...

Funny I've read other studies which show that over tens spread it the same as adults.. interesting times ahead but the one thing I hope for is that if and when the sh1t hits the fans in schools that the department step up the mark and don't leave individual schools hung out to dry.