How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

jrosen

I dont think schools need to close, YET!

I have one friend who's child is home for 2 weeks. They are having feck all contact with the school just some work being sent. So here in lies the issue. No real standard of education is being delivered. Now we can play the blame game and we all know where blame lies but ultimately untill this changes and changes drastically we can not have any level of remote /distance learning.

As much as I dont want to make any teacher feel like a babysitter because its not an opinion I hold there is nothing in place for Ireland having thousands of kids suddenly at home. Even if parents had money to burn there isn't enough childminders to go around and certainly not enough that could support home learning.

So even if we saw a blended learning approach there is no denying that there will be kids who will suffer because they do not have the support at home.

covid20

alentejo wrote: »

Do we have data to back that up? Yes, more children have caught Covid over the past few weeks. This was to be expected. Have any/many teachers caught Covid.

We need to live with this disease. If we are closing all bars, restaurants, cafes and other social outlets, so be it, however we cant as a society just abandon schools. Like I said, we may need to close some schools for up to 3 weeks,

"Can't"

We can and should do whatever is needed to regain normal life as a priority.

hello2020

covid20 wrote: »

1. Health.
2. Economy.
3. Education

All interdependent

in practice we are now having this in reverse order

also opening of schools is more to do with child minding then education !

Icyseanfitz

covid20 wrote: »

"Can't"

We can and should do whatever is needed to regain normal life as a priority.

Life is not normal at the moment and won't be until a vaccine is created or we just give up.

teachinggal123

alentejo wrote: »

Do we have data to back that up? Yes, more children have caught Covid over the past few weeks. This was to be expected. Have any/many teachers caught Covid.

We need to live with this disease. If we are closing all bars, restaurants, cafes and other social outlets, so be it, however we cant as a society just abandon schools. Like I said, we may need to close some schools for up to 3 weeks,

We have common sense to back that up.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting we 'abandon' schools. But we do need to do schools differently and not keep making the mistake of thinking that education can only happen in the traditional classroom.

meeeeh

hello2020 wrote: »

in practice we are now having this in reverse order

also opening of schools is more to do with child minding then education !

Our society developed the way that education times overlap with the way people work. Do you want return society to good old times when women stopped working after marriage and one partner would be dependant on another. In case of single parent families it would mean parents being dependant on social welfare.

You might consider schools doubling up as childcare a bad thing but I'm very glad as woman that I don't need to sacrifice income and financial independence to have children. And I'm in very happy marriage, imagine those who are not.

meeeeh

teachinggal123 wrote: »

We have common sense to back that up.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting we 'abandon' schools. But we do need to do schools differently and not keep making the mistake of thinking that education can only happen in the traditional classroom.

Again how do we restructure society to enable that?

frank8211

https://english.radio.cz/schools-open-czech-republic-amid-surge-coronavirus-cases-8690725

Secondary schools in Czech Rep to close

covid20

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Life is not normal at the moment and won't be until a vaccine is created or we just give up.

To me that attitude is a form of giving up though Sean. I genuinely believe we could and should do an awful lot better.

There is no one, who in hindsight would disagree with shutting borders last February and saving us a big headache.

covid20

meeeeh wrote: »

Our society developed the way that education times overlap with the way people work. Do you want return society to good old times when women stopped working after marriage and one partner would be dependant on another. In case of single parent families it would mean parents being dependant on social welfare.

You might consider schools doubling up as childcare a bad thing but I'm very glad as woman that I don't need to sacrifice income and financial independence to have children. And I'm in very happy marriage, imagine those who are not.

It would make many very happy, not everyone, but many would love the option. The problem is affordability, not a desire to work.

Who doesn't want more time with their kids?

teachinggal123

meeeeh wrote: »

Again how do we restructure society to enable that?

I don't think we need to 'restructure society'. But I strongly believe we need to restructure our ideas of schools/education.

How do we do this? It will take some reconfiguration from parents and teachers alike.

There needs to be a move towards online/hybrid learning. This is effective if done properly and consistently. *Some* secondary school students will be able to do this by themselves, others wont. This is the way things already are in schools anyway, and we can always put in place supports for those students having difficulty.

Primary school is more challenging, and all students will need parental support. Parents will just have to accept this and adjust their working patterns to facilitate this. Many employers would be open to this I think. Child minders/grandparents etc could also step into the breach if needed.

None of this will be easy, but I do believe it is possible in these extraordinary times. The current status quo cannot continue.

wirelessdude01

frank8211 wrote: »

https://english.radio.cz/schools-open-czech-republic-amid-surge-coronavirus-cases-8690725

Secondary schools in Czech Rep to close

That article is about them opening and is from August 31st.

meeeeh

frank8211 wrote: »

https://english.radio.cz/schools-open-czech-republic-amid-surge-coronavirus-cases-8690725

Secondary schools in Czech Rep to close

Otherwise, the country’s secondary schools are set to switch to online teaching only for a two-week period in medium and high risk areas of the country, though pupils will continue to attend elementary schools.

https://english.radio.cz/minister-state-emergency-needed-czech-covid-parameters-among-worlds-worst-8693600

Also high school age there is 15 -19. It's clearly older age cohort and not all schools.

covid20

teachinggal123 wrote: »

I don't think we need to 'restructure society'. But I strongly we need to restructure our ideas of schools/education.

How do we do this? It will take some reconfiguration from parents and teachers alike.

There needs to be a move towards online/hybrid learning. This is effective if done properly and consistently. *Some* secondary school students will be able to do this by themselves, others wont. This is the way things already are in schools anyway, and we can always put in place supports for those students having difficulty.

Primary school is more challenging, and all students will need parental support. Parents will just have to accept this and adjust their working patterns to facilitate this. Many employers would be open to this I think. Child minders/grandparents etc could also step into the breach if needed.

None of this will be easy, but I do believe it is possible in these extraordinary times. The current status quo cannot continue.

I fear we will learn little from all this and just shuffle back to everything that is wrong with modern life and miss a big opportunity to improve.

meeeeh

teachinggal123 wrote: »

Child minders/grandparents etc could also step into the breach if needed.

You can't send kids to school part of the week to mix with others and then expect grandparents to mind them. Then you are very possibly spreading Covid to at risk cohort.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Otherwise, the country’s secondary schools are set to switch to online teaching only for a two-week period in medium and high risk areas of the country, though pupils will continue to attend elementary schools.

https://english.radio.cz/minister-state-emergency-needed-czech-covid-parameters-among-worlds-worst-8693600

Also high school age there is 15 -19. It's clearly older age cohort and not all schools.

Majority of our senior cycle students fall into that age bracket

frank8211

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That article is about them opening and is from August 31st.

sorry! see below

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-czech/update-1-czech-govt-plans-state-of-emergency-to-impose-stricter-covid-19-curbs-idUSL8N2GR26F

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Majority of our senior cycle students fall into that age bracket

All students who can be left at home alone fall into that bracket. 12 year olds don't

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

All students who can be left at home alone fall into that bracket. 12 year olds don't

Our school is 13-19, I'd argue the majority of those students are okay to be at home by themselves, we do have students with additional needs though, and they would need extra help.

Icyseanfitz

covid20 wrote: »

To me that attitude is a form of giving up though Sean. I genuinely believe we could and should do an awful lot better.

There is no one, who in hindsight would disagree with shutting borders last February and saving us a big headache.

I absolutely agree with you, a lot more work and thought should have been put into the reopening of schools, I love having my work day and routine back, but I, a lot of my colleagues and some of my students are terrified at the moment. Every action this government seem to be taking is completely reactionary dependant on things getting really bad. There's no planning or forward thinking as to how to keep services like schools running effectively.

jrosen

Leaving students at home all day is not the answer, nor is expecting parents to have extended periods where they can not work.

mvl

meeeeh wrote: »

You can't send kids to school part of the week to mix with others and then expect grandparents to mind them. Then you are very possibly spreading Covid to at risk cohort.

look - have seen this mentioned before (and didn't want to comment) but according to cso, for 2016, 0-12 yo childcare data:

70% of the parents are doing the child minding themselves, 16% are using unpaid relatives or friends, 3% are using paid relatives or friends and ... 23% use some sort of paid facility ... so you are talking about less than 19 % of small children using grandparents (not other relatives or friends) - that is not the majority of children.

Icyseanfitz

jrosen wrote: »

Leaving students at home all day is not the answer, nor is expecting parents to have extended periods where they can not work.

So what's your solution to make schools a safer environment in the current pandemic?

combat14

853 confirmed cases of covid on ireland of island today...

looks like we are in for a bumpy ride the next while ...

Icyseanfitz

429 cases in the republic today, FFS something has to be done.

wirelessdude01

combat14 wrote: »

853 confirmed cases of covid on ireland of island today...

looks like we are in for a bumpy ride the next while ...

Number of cases in the north is shocking. If we mirrored that in the south we'd have well over 1200 daily cases.

jrosen

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

So what's your solution to make schools a safer environment in the current pandemic?

I can only speak for my schools. Im happy with what they have in place as feel its as safe as it can be where covid is concerned.

I think we need faster and better tracing done for teachers and students so cases can be identified as quickly as possible to reduce the spread.
I support the need for better remote and distance learning for the periods when schools /classes have to stay home. But I would not be supportive of a long term situation where education is being delivered remotely.

Icyseanfitz

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Number of cases in the north is shocking. If we mirrored that in the south we'd have well over 1200 daily cases.

Is the testing capacity better in the North I wonder? Either way their numbers will have a direct impact on our numbers in the south.

martingriff

mvl wrote: »

look - have seen this mentioned before (and didn't want to comment) but according to cso, for 2016, 0-12 yo childcare data:

70% of the parents are doing the child minding themselves, 16% are using unpaid relatives or friends, 3% are using paid relatives or friends and ... 23% use some sort of paid facility ... so you are talking about less than 19 % of small children using grandparents (not other relatives or friends) - that is not the majority of children.

Thats still a lot of grandparents but I get your point it is not the majority

solerina

jrosen wrote: »

I dont think schools need to close, YET!

I have one friend who's child is home for 2 weeks. They are having feck all contact with the school just some work being sent. So here in lies the issue. No real standard of education is being delivered. Now we can play the blame game and we all know where blame lies but ultimately untill this changes and changes drastically we can not have any level of remote /distance learning.

As much as I dont want to make any teacher feel like a babysitter because its not an opinion I hold there is nothing in place for Ireland having thousands of kids suddenly at home. Even if parents had money to burn there isn't enough childminders to go around and certainly not enough that could support home learning.

So even if we saw a blended learning approach there is no denying that there will be kids who will suffer because they do not have the support at home.

The teachers are in class teaching all those who are present, you can’t teach in class and teach online. However any student I have had who has been out more than a day or two has had an email filling them in on what they are missing so that they can catch up if they so wish. All relevant materials are also made available online...at second level students need to take some responsibility for their own learning if the rest of their class is still in the classroom.

covid20

martingriff wrote: »

Thats still a lot of grandparents but I get your point it is not the majority

19% of how many?

Hardly insignificant

jrosen

solerina wrote: »

The teachers are in class teaching all those who are present, you can’t teach in class and teach online. However any student I have had who has been out more than a day or two has had an email filling them in on what they are missing so that they can catch up if they so wish. All relevant materials are also made available online...at second level students need to take some responsibility for their own learning if the rest of their class is still in the classroom.

I was referring to a primary class, the whole class is out so the teacher is not in school teaching the class and still the contact is minimal with no support.

I agree at second level students have to take some responsibility, I think its also probably easier to adapt for second level. Particularly if the school already uses iPads etc. But I still feel alot of students would still need someone around for support and encouragement. I know mine would

Icyseanfitz

jrosen wrote: »

I can only speak for my schools. Im happy with what they have in place as feel its as safe as it can be where covid is concerned.

I think we need faster and better tracing done for teachers and students so cases can be identified as quickly as possible to reduce the spread.
I support the need for better remote and distance learning for the periods when schools /classes have to stay home. But I would not be supportive of a long term situation where education is being delivered remotely.

I can only speak from my place of work, they have tried their best but with 800 young adults it was never going to work. 24-28 in small classes at single desks around 0.6m away from each other. The teachers are more protected to be fair, they have a desk about 1.5m away from students with perspex around it. SNAs have been forgotten about, we are still expected to float around the class and do our jobs as normal. Windows and doors are closed.

Outside of classes, most students go outside in large groups with no masks and sharing food etc. In between classes kids are on top of each other literally. Practical subjects and computer subjects are as normal with all the equipment shared, music class is still happening (in what capacity i don't know). Lockers are also still being used.

If covid is as contagious as is said, none of this is good enough, nor would it be accepted anywhere else but in schools at the moment.

I am personally biased as my wife is awaiting testing for an immune condition which would leave her wide open and extremely vulnerable if i where to bring covid home, and i can't reduce my risk one bit.

martingriff

covid20 wrote: »

19% of how many?

Hardly insignificant

No which is why I said its a lot of grandparents

meeeeh

mvl wrote: »

look - have seen this mentioned before (and didn't want to comment) but according to cso, for 2016, 0-12 yo childcare data:

70% of the parents are doing the child minding themselves, 16% are using unpaid relatives or friends, 3% are using paid relatives or friends and ... 23% use some sort of paid facility ... so you are talking about less than 19 % of small children using grandparents (not other relatives or friends) - that is not the majority of children.

I bet you more kids will die from farming incidents this year than from Covid. However for over 70ies that stat is significantly different. Putting kids into childcare facilities because they can't be in school just increases social contacts. So all you are doing is solving a fairly insignificant risk (in comparison to others) by increasing social contacts and mixing kids with an age group that's at significant risk.

I'm not risk averse but I would be very much against intentionally putting at risk vulnerable people. It makes absolutely no sense.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

I bet you more kids will die from farming incidents this year than from Covid. However for over 70ies that stat is significantly different. Putting kids into childcare facilities because they can't be in school just increases social contacts. So all you are doing is solving a fairly insignificant risk (in comparison to others) by increasing social contacts and mixing kids with an age group that's at significant risk.

I'm not risk averse but I would be very much against intentionally putting at risk vulnerable people.

And what about those with vulnerable people at home? Or all the students in high risk but not quite medmark high risk?

covid20

meeeeh wrote: »

I bet you more kids will die from farming incidents this year than from Covid. However for over 70ies that stat is significantly different. Putting kids into childcare facilities because they can't be in school just increases social contacts. So all you are doing is solving a fairly insignificant risk (in comparison to others) by increasing social contacts and mixing kids with an age group that's at significant risk.

I'm not risk averse but I would be very much against intentionally putting at risk vulnerable people.

The only way that does not involve illogical loopholes that we as a country are terrible for is to close everything and pay people to stay at home. Short, swift, hard and focused attack on the virus before it gets more of hand.

Expensive short term, well worth it long term.

appledrop

So the penny seems to be finally dropping for Dr. Glynn that the lockdown in Dublin is having no effect in fact cases still rising.

Now no pubs or restaurants open in Dublin so it must be due to all parties the hundreds of young children that have tested positive in Sept are having.

mvl

meeeeh wrote: »

I bet you more kids will die from farming incidents this year than from Covid. However for over 70ies that stat is significantly different. Putting kids into childcare facilities because they can't be in school just increases social contacts. So all you are doing is solving a fairly insignificant risk (in comparison to others) by increasing social contacts and mixing kids with an age group that's at significant risk.

I'm not risk averse but I would be very much against intentionally putting at risk vulnerable people. It makes absolutely no sense.

I wouldn't assume parents are no risk neither - were there any options provided to parents at risk other than ... sending their kids to school or apply to home schooling ? (which seems to me has higher financial cost than after school costs when done right = by hiring someone trained to do it)

combat14

Irish Indo headline says it all..


Its rising everywhere... this is a message for all age groups' - health chiefs warn as 429 new cases and one further death confirmed


https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/its-rising-everywhere-this-is-a-message-for-all-age-groups-health-chiefs-warn-as-429-new-cases-and-one-further-death-confirmed-39576765.html

s1ippy

No, no, not in schools at all.

Icyseanfitz

combat14 wrote: »

Irish Indo headline says it all..


Its rising everywhere... this is a message for all age groups' - health chiefs warn as 429 new cases and one further death confirmed


https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/its-rising-everywhere-this-is-a-message-for-all-age-groups-health-chiefs-warn-as-429-new-cases-and-one-further-death-confirmed-39576765.html

Somehow its rising everywhere even with 3 counties in level 3 lockdown :rolleyes: must be pubs

appledrop

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Somehow its rising everywhere even with 3 counties in level 3 lockdown :rolleyes: must be pubs

Oh definitely the pubs + restaurants especially for under 18s they love hanging out there.

Strange that all the other lockdowns seemed to stabilise the figures but the one in Dublin in SEPTEMBER seems to be having no effect on figures. Hmm wonder whats different about that month.

wirelessdude01

The calculated grades farce is to blame 😂😋

meeeeh

appledrop wrote: »

Oh definitely the pubs + restaurants especially for under 18s they love hanging out there.

Strange that all the other lockdowns seemed to stabilise the figures but the one in Dublin in SEPTEMBER seems to be having no effect on figures. Hmm wonder whats different about that month.

Msybe the fact numbers were increasing anyway and they seem to be going only one way everywhere. Maybe the fact that numbers are increasing in the city with public transport and higher population density. Kildare lockdown had to be extended too but yes schools and everyone else in cities will be affected more. We know that from the beginning, all international research is pointing at that. So yes schools will contribute to the spread.

We are in Midlands and I was just talking to a friend who is a teacher. (Yes I like a lot of teachers, I don't like some but that is the same for any profession.) Anyway they are quite happy with the way things are going, their level of staff is fine, school has plenty of inside and outside space. I have a feeling those living in cities, especially in higher density areas will have very different experience to those of us living in more rural areas.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Msybe the fact numbers were increasing anyway and they seem to be going only one way everywhere. Maybe the fact that numbers are increasing in the city with public transport and higher population density. Kildare lockdown had to be extended too but yes schools and everyone else in cities will be affected more. We know that from the beginning, all international research is pointing at that. So yes schools will contribute to the spread.

We are in Midlands and I was just talking to a friend who is a teacher. (Yes I like a lot of teachers, I don't like some but that is the same for any profession.) Anyway they are quite happy with the way things are going, their level of staff is fine, school has plenty of inside and outside space. I have a feeling those living in cities, especially in higher density areas will have very different experience to those of us living in more rural areas.

Must be a small school, im in a very rural large post primary and its a disaster.

Jinglejangle69

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Somehow its rising everywhere even with 3 counties in level 3 lockdown :rolleyes: must be pubs

Not rising in louth for example, their cases have decreased hugely in the last week.

14 cases across 8 counties today.

But yeah schools are the problem.

It's rising everywhere!!!!

Fake news lads, will have to try harder.

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Must be a small school, im in a very rural large post primary and its a disaster.

It's primary, not that small, not very rural and in the more challenging part of town. I'm not saying everywhere is the same but I don't think many people have any desire for schools to close or move to reduced hours.

downthemiddle

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Not rising in louth for example, their cases have decreased hugely in the last week.

14 cases across 8 counties today.

But yeah schools are the only problem.

It's rising everywhere!!!!

Fake news lads, will have to try harder.

Ah JJ welcome back, your insights have really been missed. Marko is surely due to pop in next.
Speaking of fake news, can you point out where posters have said that schools are the only problem?

Jinglejangle69

downthemiddle wrote: »

Ah JJ welcome back, your insights have really been missed. Marko is surely due to pop in next.
Speaking of fake news, can you point out where posters have said that schools are the only problem?

How about you respond to the huge drop in cases in Louth lately and the 14 cases in 8 counties today first?

When it was claimed cases are rising "everywhere" and you all gave yourselves a pat on the back and multiple likes for that out and out lie.

I await.