How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

What does consistency mean though? Our social distancing measures at work are different to those in shops and so on.

I'm not splitting hairs with you. It's there in the ECDC document that they were waiting to be released. Expect plan ver2.0 at some stage next week.

ACitizenErased

https://twitter.com/kennyake/status/1291720397445046273?s=21

vid36

ACitizenErased wrote: »

https://twitter.com/kennyake/status/1291720397445046273?s=21

Inevitable after the ECDC report.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

Many are I'm sure, but many aren't. Any decent manager needs to keep their team up to date on situations that massively affect them, their workplaces, their jobs. I agree that the DoE are not providing adequate environments in which teachers and students can reasonably safely return to schools but that does not negate the fact that principals have to do the work to identify exactly what is needed in their own school and communicate that to their management, their staff and parents. Not just shrug it off or stay shtum. The reassurance that they should be providing is that they are doing everything they can be doing, and if the situation changes, as it is constantly doing, then they need to change with it.

This is a very dynamic situation, backtracking is to be expected. Planning and communication is what's needed now.

I would politely suggest that you are making quite a number of assumptions in that post. I would be in a much better position to evaluate the work that is taking place on the ground.
At the moment I’m very concerned that a young, energetic, enthusiastic principal I know is on the verge of resignation. They feel they have been put in an impossible position with guidelines that are not fit for purpose and will inevitably lead to schools being closed. They are disillusioned by what is being asked and expected of them while others wash their hands of the situation.
An inevitable outcome of the approach taken by the DES is that high quality, conscientious individuals will be lost to education. That is in nobody’s best interest.

ACitizenErased

vid36 wrote: »

Inevitable after the ECDC report.

Mad it took a european report, should have been in the original plan

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

I would politely suggest that you are making quite a number of assumptions in that post. I would be in a much better position to evaluate the work that is taking place on the ground.
At the moment I’m very concerned that a young, energetic, enthusiastic principal I know is on the verge of resignation. They feel they have been put in an impossible position with guidelines that are not fit for purpose and will inevitably lead to schools being closed. They are disillusioned by what is being asked and expected of them while others wash their hands of the situation.
An inevitable outcome of the approach taken by the DES is that high quality, conscientious individuals will be lost to education. That is in nobody’s best interest.

If parents and teachers aren't getting communications from their principal then they're not getting any communication. That is all I'm assuming in my post, informed by comments here. It's awful that young, energetic people are on the verge of resignation, and I sympathise, but it has nothing to do with my post.

meeeeh

downthemiddle wrote: »

I would politely suggest that you are making quite a number of assumptions in that post. I would be in a much better position to evaluate the work that is taking place on the ground.
At the moment I’m very concerned that a young, energetic, enthusiastic principal I know is on the verge of resignation. They feel they have been put in an impossible position with guidelines that are not fit for purpose and will inevitably lead to schools being closed. They are disillusioned by what is being asked and expected of them while others wash their hands of the situation.
An inevitable outcome of the approach taken by the DES is that high quality, conscientious individuals will be lost to education. That is in nobody’s best interest.

Sorry but that is what being a boss means. Maybe he should resign if he is not able to deal with challenges and be a teacher again.

You might think I'm unfair but we survived recession with huge sacrifices from especially my husband and just after things took off this happened. Once you are in position of authority it is expected you will preform even when others wash their hands of the situation.

Lillyfae

meeeeh wrote: »

Sorry but that is what being a boss means. Maybe he should resign if he is not able to deal with challenges and be a teacher again.

Also agree with this wholeheartedly.

downthemiddle

meeeeh wrote: »

Sorry but that is what being a boss means. Maybe he should resign if he is not able to deal with challenges and be a teacher again.

You might think I'm unfair but we survived recession with huge sacrifices from especially my husband and just after things took off this happened. Once you are in position of authority it is expected you will preform even when others wash their hands of the situation.

Being a leader involves making difficult decisions based on best practice. Having a crisis of conscience because you are asked to implement guidelines that are destined for failure, I would suggest, makes you a better leader than someone who blindly follows them no matter what the consequences are.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

If parents and teachers aren't getting communications from their principal then they're not getting any communication. That is all I'm assuming in my post, informed by comments here. It's awful that young, energetic people are on the verge of resignation, and I sympathise, but it has nothing to do with my post.

Do you genuinely believe that this thread reflects the reality of the preparation taking place in Irish schools?

wirelessdude01

downthemiddle wrote: »

Being a leader involves making difficult decisions based on best practice. Having a crisis of conscience because you are asked to implement guidelines that are destined for failure, I would suggest, makes you a better leader than someone who blindly follows them no matter what the consequences are.

I always think those outside of education don't realise the constraints that school leaders work within, especially in these times.

You can see the clear disparity in what the general public and education staff think on this very thread. Even within the staffroom there can be clear difference in interpretation of circulars and such.

School leadership is a thankless job.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that this thread reflects the reality of the preparation taking place in Irish schools?

I said nothing about preparation. I said communication. I've said it before that I don't believe this thread represents the community. I'm simply discussing with people.

Somebody said all principals are preparing. Some teachers on here disputed that. I pointed that out. Like I said before, some are doing more work than others are. Some are doing nothing. If I said all are doing nothing then I would definitely be incorrect.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

School leadership is a thankless job.

Salary?

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

Salary?

Anyone in education motivated by salary is in it for the wrong reason.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Salary?

Not worth it. In my previous career I would earn more in half a year than I ever would as a principal at the top of the scale.

downthemiddle

Lillyfae wrote: »

I said nothing about preparation. I said communication. I've said it before that I don't believe this thread represents the community. I'm simply discussing with people.

Somebody said all principals are preparing. Some teachers on here disputed that. I pointed that out. Like I said before, some are doing more work than others are. Some are doing nothing. If I said all are doing nothing then I would definitely be incorrect.

What you said was many aren’t. How many? Can you give figures please.
There are over four thousand principals in the country. How many do you know that are doing nothing?

downthemiddle

Warbeastrior wrote: »

What about staff members with diagnosed mental health disorders like generalised anxiety disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder that can relate to getting sick?

Nothing in place for them at the moment. There is a circular overdue which is meant to clarify staffing issues.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

Anyone in education motivated by salary is in it for the wrong reason.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not worth it. In my previous career I would earn more in half a year than I ever would as a principal at the top of the scale.

Every job is "thankless". Nobody at work thanks me for doing my job. I wouldn't expect to be thanked. It's lovely to think that people don't work because of the money, and I'll admit I'm guessing when I say that most work because of the money.

downthemiddle wrote: »

What you said was many aren’t. How many? Can you give figures please.
There are over four thousand principals in the country. How many do you know that are doing nothing?

How many do you know that are doing something? I'm having a discussion, I'm as right as you are because this figure isn't being measured either way.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Every job is "thankless". Nobody at work thanks me for doing my job. I wouldn't expect to be thanked. It's lovely to think that people don't work because of the money, and I'll admit I'm guessing when I say that most work because of the money.

You were the one who mentioned salary.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't is probably a better way of describing being a principal.

solerina

Lillyfae wrote: »

Salary?

For the work and responsibility involved it’s not close to being worth it !!

Lillyfae

God love the poor principals who were all forced into the job

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

How many do you know that are doing something? I'm having a discussion, I'm as right as you are because this figure isn't being measured either way.

Well of the 10 schools I would know of both personally and through friends, both primary and secondary level I can say that all of them 'doing something'. 3 of the school principals haven't communicated yet with staff as they are large schools so ISM are still trying to get their heads around things.
None of them have communicated with parents yet as they don't have a fully formulated plan for public consumption. As already said on here numerous times schools are still waiting on further guidance which will shape things. Indeed NPHET were still waiting on the ECDC guidance which dropped yesterday evening. This will more than likely totally change things in secondary. Any school having published their return to school plan up to now was in my opinion jumping the gun as it will more than likely have to change.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

God love the poor principals who were all forced into the job

None of your concern anyway as you have no skin in the game.

solerina

Lillyfae wrote: »

God love the poor principals who were all forced into the job

I’m sure not many were ‘forced into the job’ but you said they did it for the salary, I can assure you they do not !! They are not paid enough to do it for the job....(no I am not a P or DP)

Stateofyou

So if the principles and or BOM were tasked with the impossible, of implementing changes that simply can't be done in the time frame and because it's supposed to be ordered through a centralised system via app that isn't even in place yet... clearly we have a BIG, BIG problem. Why aren't Principles publicly and loudly ringing the alarm bell? Why haven't they informed parents of exactly where they're at in the process (or are not at is more the case) so that parents can hold our gov't accountable? Seriously, like wtf is even going on here. These are our children and the wider community at serious risk here and the best our leaders can do is stay silent and shrug and hope the consequences aren't too bad before they have to act? Well this is going to go belly-up and there are some families who are going to pay a high price. It was and is avoidable and just flat out unacceptable.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

None of your concern anyway as you have no skin in the game.

I'm beginning to think you're a bot with your incessant repetitive phrasing.

I have nieces, nephews, and the children of friends who are students in Ireland and are missing out on an education because everyone is passing the buck
I have family members and friends who are educators in Ireland who can't return to work safely because everyone is passing the buck
I have almost my whole direct family in Ireland, countless extended family and friends.
I have some direct family and friends living and working in other countries unable to return to Ireland because of the pandemic.
I am unable to return with my family to Ireland because of the pandemic

I have plenty of "skin in the game"

khalessi

Just saw this being shared on FB, not my words but interesting viewpoint


Be honest. If you’re not a teacher, an administrator, or someone who has actually worked in a classroom, then your opinion on what schools SHOULD do is really just what you WANT schools to do.
You have no expertise, no training, and no practical experience.
And when you retort that your taxes make your opinion valid, let’s try these scenarios…

You pay for an airline ticket. I guess that means that the pilot is YOUR employee since you pay his salary. Are you going to demand that he fly the plane the way YOU would do it? Does everyone on the airplane get a say? I mean, they ALL have a vested interest in arriving at their destination safely.

You hire a plumber. You’re paying him, so he should do things the way you would. You’re just as qualified, right? I mean, you’ve been using bathrooms your whole life.

You drive a car every day. So when there’s a problem and you bring it to the mechanic, you know exactly how it should be fixed. After all, you’re paying. You should have a say.

The cry for teachers to “get back to work,” is obnoxious and condescending. It’s also inaccurate. Teachers didn’t stop working when the buildings closed. They did not choose for schools to be closed in March, and they have no say in whether they reopen in September. Most of them WANT to return to school because they love their jobs, and more importantly, love their kids.
However, they DO have a right to express their concerns. They DO have a right to feel safe in the workplace. And they DO know more than anyone else about the feasibility of the suggested guidelines and whether instruction will be effective when implementing them.
If your only experience with education is that you went to school or have a child in school, then at least be honest....
You don’t know what’s best.

The Unbearables

Stateofyou wrote: »

So if the principles and or BOM were tasked with the impossible, of implementing changes that simply can't be done in the time frame and because it's supposed to be ordered through a centralised system via app that isn't even in place yet... clearly we have a BIG, BIG problem. Why aren't Principles publicly and loudly ringing the alarm bell? Why haven't they informed parents of exactly where they're at in the process (or are not at is more the case) so that parents can hold our gov't accountable? Seriously, like wtf is even going on here. These are our children and the wider community at serious risk here and the best our leaders can do is stay silent and shrug and hope the consequences aren't too bad before they have to act? Well this is going to go belly-up and there are some families who are going to pay a high price. It was and is avoidable and just flat out unacceptable.

The government is too busy on holidays. Have some heart will ya.

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

So if the principles and or BOM were tasked with the impossible, of implementing changes that simply can't be done in the time frame and because it's supposed to be ordered through a centralised system via app that isn't even in place yet... clearly we have a BIG, BIG problem. Why aren't Principles publicly and loudly ringing the alarm bell? Why haven't they informed parents of exactly where they're at in the process (or are not at is more the case) so that parents can hold our gov't accountable? Seriously, like wtf is even going on here. These are our children and the wider community at serious risk here and the best our leaders can do is stay silent and shrug and hope the consequences aren't too bad before they have to act? Well this is going to go belly-up and there are some families who are going to pay a high price. It was and is avoidable and just flat out unacceptable.

You see it on here when issues are raised and mostly the responses are lazy teachers don't want to work, put them on the Covid payment and they'll go back, the country needs the schools open to get the economy back again, we need to think about the children, teachers looking a pay increase, teachers looking for danger money, dastardly unions preventing the country from getting back to normal.

Principals are doing what they have to get the schools open within the framework they have been given. Unions in my opinion are playing a blinder. They are pointing out the flaws and issues but aren't banging the table in annoyance. Slowly but surely I'm seeing parents and the media taking the plan apart and demanding change.

Coming from us that would be twisted into something else. Indeed I can't remember was it on this thread or another similar one but someone was claiming that teachers were protesting outside the dail this week looking for a pay increase. Utter lies but why let the truth get in the way of fabricating a story to suit their own narrative.

If the plan is to be changed in any meaningful way they the drive for this needs to come from the parent body. I know my own union put forward a very comprehensive reopening document to the department shortly after Easter, so to did the national primary principals forum. Guess what? Points raised and solutions offered were pretty much ignored in the plan outlined. So yes we have pointed out the issues but until there is a outcry from the media and parents then nothing will happen.

vid36

The problems regarding school buses particularly in rural areas have not received enough attention in my opinion. Many drivers and providers operate multiple routes serving both primary and secondary schools. With social distancing required on buses per ECDC guidelines as well as much stricter hygiene requirements (bus cleaned and sanitised after each run), it will probably lead to staggered opening times.However, so far guidelines are silent on this and the logistics are complex.