How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

You have indeed been consistent.

The difference Boggles is that you deal in conjecture and call it "common sense", I deal in facts

wirelessdude01

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Fortunately I know of some schools preparing for remote learning etc. Whether its across the board or not I dont know. It would be foolish not to.

Think the issue is that there is no consistency when it comes to remote stuff. This was very evident on here. Some teachers doing massive work, some doing nothing at all and then the majority like myself in the middle trying to muddle along.

A lack of a coherent national plan for remote stuff leads to the above occurring. As it is those very high risk students who have to stay home aren't really being catered for. True there was a nod in their direction with the whole they have to be catered for from within existing school resources. This in reality means it is being lumped on SET at primary level in conjunction with the class teacher. Both already have their workloads during the school day as is.

No effort was made by the department to develop a framework or system whereby very high risk teachers or teachers out due to other reasons could be matched/paired up with a very high risk student and provide a proper continuity of education to them.

Absolutely no joined up thinking at all. Think most teachers expected something like the above to have been included in the plan when it was announced but alas it wasn't.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually it is his role. (Acting) Chief medical officer is not just the role during the pandemic, it's also in charge of other health issues and child wellbeing is one of them.

Some here are so preoccupied with Corona that you forget there are other issues around. In the past sneering comments were made how things are done in the interest of economy. Guess who pays for education and health in the country? Someone would be very poor CMO if they didn't take into account the health, well-being of kids. Everything should be done that we won't loose future generations. Their education and their economic prospects will be destroyed should their grandparents and parents be prepared to sacrifice their future because they are afraid for themselves. Actively cheered by the unions and their self interest.

Here is the definition of the role.
https://www.gov.ie/en/role/eca2d1-chief-medical-officer/

No mention of education at all.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

The difference Boggles is that you deal in conjecture and call it "common sense", I deal in facts

You don't, you try and hide behind perceived "facts" whilst discarding common sense to insulate yourself in your own personal echo chamber.

I just gave you a glaring example of it.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Here is the definition of the role.
https://www.gov.ie/en/role/eca2d1-chief-medical-officer/

No mention of education at all.

Wellbeing is though. Maybe you think education is irrelevant for the well-being of kids and young adults. Luckily there are public health officials who understand health policy as more that chopping and patching up people after they get sick.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Everything should be done that we won't loose future generations. Their education and their economic prospects will be destroyed should their grandparents and parents be prepared to sacrifice their future because they are afraid for themselves. Actively cheered by the unions and their self interest.

So.... that's the same argument for continuing education with a practical and forward thinking plan for the safety and well-being of all, right? Bringing 'fear' into it is ridiculous, by the way.

meeeeh wrote: »

Wellbeing is though. Maybe you think education is irrelevant for the well-being of kids and young adults. Luckily there are public health officials who understand health policy as more that chopping and patching up people after they get sick.

Again, you and a few others on here are the only ones talking about destroyed education, irrelevance of education, etc. etc.

The rest of us are literally saying that's a problem, it's already happening, and it's a disgrace there isn't a better plan. Hello???

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

Their education and their economic prospects will be destroyed should their grandparents and parents be prepared to sacrifice their future because they are afraid for themselves.

Yes, because fear is driving up the instances of the virus and it is fear that will potentially overwhelm our health system.

Absolute nonsense.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

Wellbeing is though. Maybe you think education is irrelevant for the well-being of kids and young adults. Luckily there are public health officials who understand health policy as more that chopping and patching up people after they get sick.

Not his place to be the mouthpiece of the government when it comes to schools have to be open. He isn't a politician. You could be pretty sure Tony would have kinda side stepped that question yesterday with a response along the lines that schools are the responsibility department of education and don't fall under his remit. Tony loved using the word remit.

jrosen

The problem I see with remote learning is that there is still no plan. So again we will see some teachers working really well and others doing SFA.

This year my sons teacher (primary) seems very tech savvy and is absolutely laying the foundations for remote work. But how many others haven't a clue where to start?

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

The problem I see with remote learning is that there is still no plan. So again we will see some teachers working really well and others doing SFA.

Exactly. Sticking the head in the sand is the government/department approach and a few kum ba yahs.

Icyseanfitz

Deleted User wrote: »

Evidence that children can spread the virus is not evidence they are driving the increase in cases. I am not disputing that children are catching and passing on the virus at all. What I am disputing is the narrative based purely on conjecture that opening of the schools is driving our cases load, not least because it started before schools returned

So it stands to reason that if you believe the virus is just as active in schools as else where that it's is spreading massively because of schools and the uniquely crowded and unregulated mess within.

And it's easy to say there's no huge increase in school cases etc. When 1. It isn't getting reported on and 2. Kids catching in school and bringing it home will infect mommy, daddy and the rest of the family and in so doing increase all age brackets that are testing positive.

JDD

I get the two sides to this.

The virus is most efficiently spread in crowded, unventilated indoor spaces.

Schools are crowded. I think we can all agree on that. They are indoor. Some classrooms are unventilated, some are better at opening windows. But as winter draws in, I can see situations where the windows are not open all the time.

Symptomatic children spread the virus as efficiently as symptomatic adults.

It is unclear whether asymptomatic children spread the virus as well as symptomatic children do. We know that there is a higher proportion of asymptomatic children then there are asymptomatic adults.

If schools are driving the second wave, you would expect to see one thing. The percentage of infections in the 0-14 category to swiftly increase. So if the 0-14 age category was 5% of overall infections up to August, you would expect that percentage to increase to 10 or 15%.

That has not happened. I realise it is counterintuitive, because it is what we would expect to happen in a situation where we have opened a sector of our economy that entails 1 million people going into crowded indoor situations every day. I can't give you an answer as to why it hasn't happened, except to say that it is my gut feeling that asymptomatic children are not as contagious or perhaps not contagious at all.

But the numbers don't lie. And we have had nearly five weeks of schools being open. That's at least three cycles of infection. We should be seeing those numbers vastly increase by now if we are to conclude that schools are driving the second wave.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

So.... that's the same argument for continuing education with a practical and forward thinking plan for the safety and well-being of all, right? Bringing 'fear' into it is ridiculous, by the way.



Again, you and a few others on here are the only ones talking about destroyed education, irrelevance of education, etc. etc.

The rest of us are literally saying that's a problem, it's already happening, and it's a disgrace there isn't a better plan. Hello???

No it's not. Socialisation is important factor in education. I'm well capable to teach mine maths, I'm not able to teach them how to navigate friendships, deal with authority.

Home schooling or combined schooling is last resort and shouldonly be used if our hospitalsare completely overflown. I'm quite happy how education is done at the moment.

seamus

delly wrote: »

Cold air doesn't cause sniffles, but cold air does cause a narrowing of the airways, which can then lead to coughing or a shortness of breath. If you have asthma, cold air can have a very bad effect.

It's multi-factoral.

Being outside in cold air, can as you say lead to coughing, which can result in microtears in airways, which can make one more susceptible to catching something.

However, being inside with central heating also isn't all it's cracked up to be. Central heating is known to lower the humidity level inside the property. This causes a drying of the airways, removing protective moisture barriers.

Again, making one more susceptible to catching something.

Put the two together and you have a recipe for vulnerability - a walk outside if the cold irritating the airways, and then coming inside to a toasty house drying them out, and having a close chat to the person beside you who has a cold. Boom.

The ideal conditions are keeping the house between 15-20 degrees, wearing heavier clothes to warm up if you're cold, and opening windows at least once a day for 30 minutes to keep the humidity at a reasonable level.

Most people don't. They crank the heating up to 22/23 degrees and keep the windows shut all day and night.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not his place to be the mouthpiece of the government when it comes to schools have to be open. He isn't a politician. You could be pretty sure Tony would have kinda side stepped that question yesterday with a response along the lines that schools are the responsibility department of education and don't fall under his remit. Tony loved using the word remit.

Well things under 'Tony' weren't great were they. Numbers were pretty high, Ireland did poorly in comparison to a lot of European countries and those countries opened schools. My nephews were in school at the beginning of May and could get haircut. Numbers of dead were a lot lower despite bordering on Italy (100 dead for 2 mil population) Masks were not brought in for ages in Ireland and country was locked up longer. So please tell me what was so great in how Ireland dealt with first wave? And saying that we were not as bad as Brits really isn't much of a consolation.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

Well things under 'Tony' weren't great were they. Numbers were pretty high, Ireland did poorly in comparison to a lot of European countries and those countries opened schools. My nephews were in school at the beginning of May and could get haircut. Numbers of dead were a lot lower despite bordering on Italy (100 dead for 2 mil population) Masks were not brought in for ages in Ireland and country was locked up longer. So please tell me what was so great in how Ireland dealt with first wave? And saying that we were not as bad as Brits really isn't much of a consolation.

So you are saying that the reason we had high numbers was due to Tony?

Going by that logic we can say that the recent increase in numbers is down to Ronan?

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So you are saying that the reason we had high numbers was due to Tony?

Going by that logic we can say that the recent increase in numbers is down to Ronan?

No I'm saying it's unfair to run down current ACMO and say how much better previous CMO was. He didn't need to open schools and other businesses. It was you who started with the whole 'Tony' thing btw.

seamus

meeeeh wrote: »

And saying that we were not as bad as Brits really isn't much of a consolation.

Why not? The barometer YOU used was that the country was "bordering on Italy" and therefore did very well.

We're bordering on the UK and by comparison did very well. We also have a very unique situation of a border that cannot be closed. It is functionally impossible to prevent visitors from the UK; one of the worst affected countries in the world.

By saying "don't use the Brits as a comparison", you're basically admitting that we did well, but it doesn't suit the point you're wanting to make.

Nobody's saying the response was perfect, but attached to a major virus hotspot and with minimal ability to procure the necessary equipment, the only effective tool at our disposal was personal responsibility and unity of action. And that, we did very well.

Decades of underfunding in various public services were why Ireland was in that position, but being unable to conjure hospital beds and PPE out of thin air is not a failure in emergency response.

I don't think the ACMO is doing worse than Tony tbf. But he did get thrown into a bit of a sh1t sandwich with a new government having been formed and turning into an utter shambles. His inexperience became apparent as the new government basically deferred responsibility to him while they struggled to make any coherent decisions.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

No I'm saying it's unfair to run down current ACMO and say how much better previous CMO was. He didn't need to open schools. It was you who started with the whole 'Tony' thing btw.

Where did I run down Ronan Glynn?

Relevant quote would be great.

My point is that he is now becoming a political voice. That is not his role.

The CMO role is

provision of strategic leadership and evidence based analysis and expert medical advice,

development of policy and legislation

leading the development and coordination of health and wellbeing policy.

Not in a month of sundays should he be the mouth piece for the government.

meeeeh

seamus wrote: »

Why not? The barometer YOU used was that the country was "bordering on Italy" and therefore did very well.

We're bordering on the UK and by comparison did very well. We also have a very unique situation of a border that cannot be closed. It is functionally impossible to prevent visitors from the UK; one of the worst affected countries in the world.

By saying "don't use the Brits as a comparison", you're basically admitting that we did well, but it doesn't suit the point you're wanting to make.

Nobody's saying the response was perfect, but attached to a major virus hotspot and with minimal ability to procure the necessary equipment, the only effective tool at our disposal was personal responsibility and unity of action. And that, we did very well.

Decades of underfunding in various public services were why Ireland was in that position, but being unable to conjure hospital beds and PPE out of thin air is not a failure in emergency response.

I think the Brits and Spanish did particularly badly. So if being better than them makes it good then fine. NI had lower numbers that Republic as far as I know so using border as an excuse is bs.

I mentioned Northern Italy because it was region with high numbers. You can look at response in most of Central Europe. There are countries in that group that had barely a ventilator in stock and did better.

I'm not running down Ireland but neither would I want the country's response to be as it was in spring because it wasn't good.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not in a month of sundays should he be the mouth piece for the government.

That's an example you are looking for. I would say that reducing an expert to being a mouth piece for government isn't exactly a compliment.

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Where did I run down Ronan Glynn?

Relevant quote would be great.

My point is that he is now becoming a political voice. That is not his role.

The CMO role is

provision of strategic leadership and evidence based analysis and expert medical advice,

development of policy and legislation

leading the development and coordination of health and wellbeing policy.

Not in a month of sundays should he be the mouth piece for the government.

What makes him a mouthpiece for the government - not agreeing with the "consensus" on here?

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

That's an example you are looking for. I would say that reducing an expert to being a mouth piece for government isn't exactly a compliment.

Well then he shouldn't be weighing in on schools being kept open. Once again he isn't a politician. Do the job he has, present the analysis to the relevant people and rince/repeat. Commenting on schools unless in relation to cases isn't something he should be doing.

wirelessdude01

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes him a mouthpiece for the government - not agreeing with the "consensus" on here?

Go listen to the update yesterday. Lots to say about schools when asked a question but then ran for the hills when asked why they aren't turning up for the oireachtas session today. Basically replied saying ask the Dept/HSE.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well then he shouldn't be weighing in on schools being kept open. Once again he isn't a politician. Do the job he has, present the analysis to the relevant people and rince/repeat. Commenting on schools unless in relation to cases isn't something he should be doing.

In other words he should say what you want to hear.

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Go listen to the update yesterday. Lots to say about schools when asked a question but then ran for the hills when asked why they aren't turning up for the oireachtas session today. Basically replied saying ask the Dept/HSE.

So answered a question on the impact of schools on cases but deferred to the DES and HSE on the policies being implemented in schools. I think you a finding a problem that doesn't exist

Funsterdelux

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think the issue is that there is no consistency when it comes to remote stuff. This was very evident on here. Some teachers doing massive work, some doing nothing at all and then the majority like myself in the middle trying to muddle along.

A lack of a coherent national plan for remote stuff leads to the above occurring. As it is those very high risk students who have to stay home aren't really being catered for. True there was a nod in their direction with the whole they have to be catered for from within existing school resources. This in reality means it is being lumped on SET at primary level in conjunction with the class teacher. Both already have their workloads during the school day as is.

No effort was made by the department to develop a framework or system whereby very high risk teachers or teachers out due to other reasons could be matched/paired up with a very high risk student and provide a proper continuity of education to them.

Absolutely no joined up thinking at all. Think most teachers expected something like the above to have been included in the plan when it was announced but alas it wasn't.

Oh I agree, there should have been a contingency plan made parallel with the "plan"

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

In other words he should say what you want to hear.

Where did I say that?

I want to see/hear transparency about schools and the cases/clusters/outbreaks in them.

I will be highly and pleasantly surprised if we get a diagram like we did yesterday which shows how a case in school spreads.

As an aside a friend of mine in a massive primary school just messaged me to say that their principal has asked every staff member to delete the covid tracking app.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As an aside a friend of mine in a massive primary school just messaged me to say that their principal has asked every staff member to delete the covid tracking app.

I hope someone reported the principal?

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

No it's not. Socialisation is important factor in education. I'm well capable to teach mine maths, I'm not able to teach them how to navigate friendships, deal with authority.

Home schooling or combined schooling is last resort and shouldonly be used if our hospitalsare completely overflown. I'm quite happy how education is done at the moment.

In normal times, but we have to adapt. Healthy, surviving family members without long term health effects is most important. That doesn't mean socialisation is at the bottom of the heap. Combined (blended/hybrid learning) should be the first resort to avoid worse consequences, to avoid shutdowns, teacher absences and closed classes for days or weeks, and hospitals overran. Obviously, it's too late at that point. That's the WHOOOOOLE point of forward thinking planning in everyone's best interest. Not looking back in hindsight saying oh whelp, we saw this coming, feck it anyway... :rolleyes: Where will socialisation be then when instead of blended learning, the school, community, or country is shut down. Why is this so hard to understand.