How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

In normal times, but we have to adapt. Healthy, surviving family members without long term health effects is most important. That doesn't mean socialisation is at the bottom of the heap. Combined (blended/hybrid learning) should be the first resort to avoid worse consequences, to avoid shutdowns, teacher absences and closed classes for days or weeks, and hospitals overran. Obviously, it's too late at that point. That's the WHOOOOOLE point of forward thinking planning in everyone's best interest. Not looking back in hindsight saying oh whelp, we saw this coming, feck it anyway... :rolleyes: Where will socialisation be then when instead instead of blended learning the school, community, or country is shut down. Why is this so hard to understand.

But the numbers are not high enough to warrant blended teaching. Schools seem to be doing fine in general

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

In other words he should say what you want to hear.

As opposed to not saying what you don't want to hear? :pac:

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

I hope someone reported the principal?

The request is being ignored.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

As opposed to not saying what you don't want to hear? :pac:

Actually I want them to say whatever they think they need to say. I won't like everything they will say. I certainly didn't agree with the delay in bringing in masks but I don't believe the delay was because the CMO was just a mouthpiece for government.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

But the numbers are not high enough to warrant blended teaching. Schools seem to be doing fine in general

Are you being deliberately obtuse? There are those in the high risk category completely uncatered for. There are those in the very high risk category who were downgraded to high risk and therefore both groups are extremely vulnerable. As are the family members they live with who may be higher risk.
There are teacher/sub shortages and others taking the retirement option. There are already cases and clusters in schools causing quarantines and closures and there is no national plan b for them. We have one of the largest class sizes in Europe in often old (and overcrowded) buildings making social distancing and ventilation impossible. Blended remote learning would reduce those class sizes and give choice to those who desperately need it.
"Schools seem to be doing fine" comment is just another 'I'm alright Jack' sentiment that only shows your privilege for one, your lack of empathy for other's situation for two, and a blatant ignoring of the reality of the situation.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

But the numbers are not high enough to warrant blended teaching. Schools seem to be doing fine in general

How are we doing alright? Yesterday we had near 400 cases and the day before we had over 400, that's not good

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually I want them to say whatever they think they need to say. I won't like everything they will say. I certainly didn't agree with the delay in bringing in masks but I don't believe the delay was because the CMO was just a mouthpiece for government.

Which is exactly what they're doing? And we have every right to question our (unelected) leaders by the way, this isn't N. Korea. See, you disagree over things too. Didn't you trust the leadership on that decision? :rolleyes:

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

But the numbers are not high enough to warrant blended teaching. Schools seem to be doing fine in general

At the moment. Point that I raised earlier is that there is no formal or consistent approach adopted for continuity of education in the event of a class, classes, whole year group or indeed whole school closure. It will be the 'bespoke approach we had before during lockdown.

Without searching at all I'm aware of 3 schools that have been fully closed. As far as i know, one is due open next Monday. The others won't be until the following week.

Now before anyone jumps in saying I'm advocating for schools to be shut I'm not. Keeping them open is the name of the game but different approaches based on local situation is what is required and this isn't and hasn't been allowed or considered.

I'm aware of one school in a hotspot in Dublin that asked the department for permission to adopt a blended solution. This would have reduced numbers in the school for a period of time. Classes are already being streamed to overflow rooms in the school anyway so could have been viewed from home in real-time as is happening in the over flow room.

Department refused to even engage with them and listen to the detail of the proposal.

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

How are we doing alright? Yesterday we had near 400 cases and the day before we had over 400, that's not good

No they are not great but they are not bad enough to close or limit the schools. You can't compare 400 cases now to 400 in April when testing criteria was different.

the corpo

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As an aside a friend of mine in a massive primary school just messaged me to say that their principal has asked every staff member to delete the covid tracking app.

Jaysis, what on earth is the thinking behind that??

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

No they are not great but they are not bad enough to close or limit the schools. You can't compare 400 cases now to 400 in April when testing criteria was different.

Will they still be okay in 2 weeks when they hit 600? How about 800 a day, will that be okay?

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Where did I say that?

I want to see/hear transparency about schools and the cases/clusters/outbreaks in them.

I will be highly and pleasantly surprised if we get a diagram like we did yesterday which shows how a case in school spreads.

As an aside a friend of mine in a massive primary school just messaged me to say that their principal has asked every staff member to delete the covid tracking app.

Its an active debate about what to do about the tracing app in work environments where other controls are in place. In work here large amounts of people work in a production environment, but segregation measures have been put in place. There is an expectation that at some point we will get a large number of pings from a case, but who in reality probably only has 3-4 contacts max. Operators working in the area are not supposed to bring their phones with them (cleanroom), however reality is most have the phone in the pocket. The alternative however is that many of these will have the phone in their lockers, resulting in far more pings as hundreds of lockers are in the same area.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

Which is exactly what they're doing? And we have every right to question our (unelected) leaders by the way, this isn't N. Korea. See, you disagree over things too. Didn't you trust the leadership on that decision? :rolleyes:

Questioning something is not the same as professionally dismissing someone and devaluing their expertise.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Questioning something is not the same as professionally dismissing someone and devaluing their expertise.

Okay. If that's the only point you want to try to make it's a poor attempt at discussion of all the wider issues and points made which you're conveniently ignoring.

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Will they still be okay in 2 weeks when they hit 600? How about 800 a day, will that be okay?

I don't know how many we will hit in 2 weeks but I would think the hospital numbers and how many other services in hospitals can be provided are lot more relevant for essential service/activities like schools and business activities.

irishblessing

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm aware of one school in a hotspot in Dublin that asked the department for permission to adopt a blended solution. This would have reduced numbers in the school for a period of time. Classes are already being streamed to overflow rooms in the school anyway so could have been viewed from home in real-time as is happening in the over flow room.

Department refused to even engage with them and listen to the detail of the proposal.

This is an utter disgrace and neglect of their duties in the highest order. Disgusted.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

Okay. If that's the only point you want to try to make it's a poor attempt at discussion of all the wider issues and points made which you're conveniently ignoring.

Oh so now I'm discussing the wrong points. Right. I 'm ignoring some points because I'm already wasting too much time discussing this. Unlike some here I have to at least pretend I'm working.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh so now I'm discussing the wrong points. Right. I 'm ignoring some points because I'm already wasting too much time discussing this. Unlike some here I have to at least pretend I'm working.

irishblessing wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse? There are those in the high risk category completely uncatered for. There are those in the very high risk category who were downgraded to high risk and therefore both groups are extremely vulnerable. As are the family members they live with who may be higher risk.
There are teacher/sub shortages and others taking the retirement option. There are already cases and clusters in schools causing quarantines and closures and there is no national plan b for them. We have one of the largest class sizes in Europe in often old (and overcrowded) buildings making social distancing and ventilation impossible. Blended remote learning would reduce those class sizes and give choice to those who desperately need it.
"Schools seem to be doing fine" comment is just another 'I'm alright Jack' sentiment that only shows your privilege for one, your lack of empathy for other's situation for two, and a blatant ignoring of the reality of the situation.

So instead of responding to this, and playing semantics about how you vs others disagree on how the gov't runs the show (you disagree in the "right" way, apparently), now you're going to hide behind some ridiculous excuse that you are too busy and working, despite being on here throughout the day so far. Right...

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

So instead of responding to this, and playing semantics about how you vs others disagree on how the gov't runs the show (you disagree in the "right" way, apparently), now you're going to hide behind some ridiculous excuse that you are too busy and working, despite being on here throughout the day so far. Right...

OK and this is actually my last response on the subject. Those who are vulnerable have to stay at home and I agree something should be done to cater for them. Those who were downgraded obviously aren't vulnerable enough and how we treat Corona improved so if all possible they should be in main system. There is no point of starting blended learning before issues appear. Kids are not overly affected by Corona so unless school is forced into blended learning by large outbreak there is no point for it. However the kids (and parents) in blended learning will be in disadvantaged position in comparison to kids in normal learning so I wouldn't be quick to implement it.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

OK and this is actually my last response on the subject. Those who are vulnerable have to stay at home and I agree something should be done to cater for them. Those who were downgraded obviously aren't vulnerable enough and how we treat Corona improved so if all possible they should be in main system. There is no point of starting blended learning before issues appear. Kids are not overly affected by Corona so unless school is forced into blended learning by large outbreak there is no point for it. However the kids (and parents) in blended learning will be in disadvantaged position in comparison to kids in normal learning so I wouldn't be quick to implement it.

"... aren't vulnerable enough." Still leaves them at more vulnerable without options, doesn't it? Not very sympathetic but then you're not facing it so what do you care.

No point in starting blended learning before issues appear? Wow... so there's no point in trying to avoid any sickness, long term illness or death, nor avoid any disruption in learning and addressing disadvantaged students in an uneven system as the rolling absences, quarantines and lockdowns go on. Instead of levelling out the field, ensuring everyone has the same safety and access to education, you only want to compare normal learning to an abnormal time which is to absolutely ignore reality. We are in the midst of a global pandemic, and our leaders in respect to education have absolutely not risen to the challenge.

You at least admit to one whole segment of society uncatered for (though I would argue all are uncatered for properly). For someone who constantly spouts about how much education and socialisation should be valued, you seem to have planted your feet firmly against the best plan to ensure all have the best possible support at this time. I don't understand you.

JimmyVik

Pretty sure schools will be closed by Christmas the way things are going. Maybe even in November.
And of course the chools will not be ready for it and this time we will have 2 full terms without proper remote learning in place.
Now we were very happy the way the tacher did it last time, but its a different teacher this year and god knows what they will be like.
But one thing is for certain. If the schools continue as they are, then none of them will be ready for closing down and remote learning for the rest of this school year.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know how many we will hit in 2 weeks but I would think the hospital numbers and how many other services in hospitals can be provided are lot more relevant for essential service/activities like schools and business activities.

And yet hospital admissions and ICU beds used are at the highest theve been in months, how does your "increased numbers is only increased testing" Fit in with that?

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

And yet hospital admissions and ICU beds used are at the highest theve been in months, how does your "increased numbers is only increased testing" Fit in with that?

I said positive numbers can't be compared to numbers in April because we are testing more not that they are not increasing. At the end of April there were 120 people in ICU with Covid. https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/newsfeatures/covid19-updates/covid-19-daily-operations-update-20-00-26-april-2020.pdf

mvl

irishblessing wrote: »

This is an utter disgrace and neglect of their duties in the highest order. Disgusted.

yes, it is extremely frustrating, shows lack of agility and is not appropriate attitude for a 2020 1st world country.
- reducing number of ppl onsite is appropriate for majority of the workplaces where technology is used - why can't ppl see the benefits of doing same in schools ? it IS a workplace where technology can be used, is it not ?

so ... been complaining here for days that I don't want my secondary school daughter to have to spend full time in school between 9-16h: I want her to spend enough time in school, and in my opinion, smaller number of core hours of school learning can be complimented with delta online learning, to enable a safer environment for students/teachers and parents involved !!!

wirelessdude01

I had reason to spend a few days in hospital recently (non Covid related) and when I looked out my window they were building/erecting two massive marquees out the back. Asked one of the nurses and they said they were preparing as a just in case for expected surge in admissions.

I compared this to the blatant lack of planning shown to education.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

You at least admit to one whole segment of society uncatered for (though I would argue all are uncatered for properly). For someone who constantly spouts about how much education and socialisation should be valued, you seem to have planted your feet firmly against the best plan to ensure all have the best possible support at this time. I don't understand you.

I planted my feet firmly against your plan not against the best plan. Btw we also run our own company, we are increasing our workforce and we have no intention to tell our customers that we can't provide the services because our employees have to do blended teaching. Your way will bankrupt the country, take away the means of earning an income from people and all because you are afraid your kids might come home with sniffles. How many lives do you want to destroy, how many families have to be moved on employment supports to enable remote learning?

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I had reason to spend a few days in hospital recently (non Covid related) and when I looked out my window they were building/erecting two massive marquees out the back. Asked one of the nurses and they said they were preparing as a just in case for expected surge in admissions.

I compared this to the blatant lack of planning shown to education.

I'm confused. You see this as prudent planning for hospitals, but it wasn't good enough for schools a few months ago?? Or you think hospitals and schools are subject to equally bad planning?

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

I'm confused. You see this as prudent planning for hospitals, but it wasn't good enough for schools a few months ago?? Or you think hospitals and schools are subject to equally bad planning?

Well these things weren't your standard marquee. Obviously unaware how these are being financed.

I know a school that made an enquiry about renting some form of marquee for the year and was quoted €90,000. Yes €90,000. No school has that type of money and there was no provision anywhere in the plan to provide finance. Insurance enquiry was made with Allianz as well and they were told it wouldn't be covered anyway so was a non runner regardless.

Point I'm making is the difference in approach to forward planning. Health is planning ahead for something which may or may not occur but if/when it does occur there is some type of a plan.
Education won't do any planning that would ensure a consistent approach if/when a class/classes/year group/whole school aren't allow into the school building.

Once again I'm not looking or advocating for schools to be closed or for a national lockdown. I'm advocating that people should be realistic as already whole schools have been shut for two weeks. This is a fact and more schools will be impacted. Regional shutdowns with regards to schools aren't too far fetched.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well these things weren't your standard marquee. Obviously unaware how these are being financed.

I know a school that made an enquiry about renting some form of marquee for the year and was quoted €90,000. Yes €90,000. No school has that type of money and there was no provision anywhere in the plan to provide finance.

So if the marquee looks OK to you then it's a good solution but if someone else suggests anything like that you personally ridicule them out of the thread? Does it ever occur to you that, actually, you may vastly overestimate the weight of your own opinion?

I'm not saying NPHET or the CMO are always right. This is still an unprecedented pandemic, and any measures taken have to be within the context of the whole of society, to the benefit of the whole of society. There are employees in many essential sectors who may be at a higher risk, who may have family members at a higher risk, of becoming gravely ill from Covid. If that's the case, they need to make their own decision as to how they feel is best to proceed. Supports need to be in place for those at a very high risk, as they are. But whether you like it or not, formal education and socialisation at school is essential and should continue, especially since we can see it is not the super spreader that you have predicted it would be.

Things are going to be inconsistent, and up and down until a functioning vaccination program is available. Tough for all of us, very tough for teachers who can't effectively teach small children from home. Until then I'm glad that there are virologists and public health experts advising the policy makers and not the INTO, the principal at the school down the road, Voices for Teachers facebook page, you, Blondini etc etc etc

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

So if the marquee looks OK to you then it's a good solution but if someone else suggests anything like that you personally ridicule them out of the thread? Does it ever occur to you that, actually, you may vastly overestimate the weight of your own opinion?

I'm not saying NPHET or the CMO are always right. This is still an unprecedented pandemic, and any measures taken have to be within the context of the whole of society, to the benefit of the whole of society. There are employees in many essential sectors who may be at a higher risk, who may have family members at a higher risk, of becoming gravely ill from Covid. If that's the case, they need to make their own decision as to how they feel is best to proceed. Supports need to be in place for those at a very high risk, as they are. But whether you like it or not, formal education and socialisation at school is essential and should continue, especially since we can see it is not the super spreader that you have predicted it would be.

Things are going to be inconsistent, and up and down until a functioning vaccination program is available. Tough for all of us, very tough for teachers who can't effectively teach small children from home. Until then I'm glad that there are virologists and public health experts advising the policy makers and not the INTO, the principal at the school down the road, Voices for Teachers facebook page, you, Blondini etc etc etc

Quote where I said it was a super spreader?

You just dismissed two of the education stakeholders, INTO and principals as having no input into how things are decided. How narrow minded.

Not quite sure what the INTO or principals have done that deserve such ire from you. Care to explain?

How are things in the land of tulips?