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Large Explosion in Beirut

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    #302
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    AllForIt wrote: »
    God almighty, will I ever live a moment in my life where the middle east isn't in some kind of turmoil. Can they not just get their act together. They seem to revel in strife, it seems to be in their nature.

    Agreed but It depends what lense you view it from.

    From my view it has been foreign military intervention with the intent of "more western acceptable" Regime change that has the ME fcuked.

    Of course not in all cases but in some.

    It is **** though, many places in the ME would be worth visiting....if it wasnt being blown to sh1t.


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    #303
    Thesiger
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Thesiger


    AllForIt wrote: »
    God almighty, will I ever live a moment in my life where the middle east isn't in some kind of turmoil. Can they not just get their act together. They seem to revel in strife, it seems to be in their nature.

    I imagine in 1945 people would have been looking back on decades of European warfare (on a much larger scale than anything that has happened in the Middle East) and centuries of European imperialism and thinking the same about Europe. During the 50s, 60s and 70s East and South-East Asia suffered turmoil to a degree probably not yet equaled by the Middle East’s current conflicts. Many of those countries which suffered most in those years are now growing economies and popular tourist destinations.


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    #304
    Jeff2
    Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Jeff2


    AllForIt wrote: »
    God almighty, will I ever live a moment in my life where the middle east isn't in some kind of turmoil. Can they not just get their act together. They seem to revel in strife, it seems to be in their nature.

    Gaddafi said it best in long speech to UN I think after 911 about USA going after Countries in east and was laughed at by President of Syria and others.

    I'll find the video and post it.


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    #305
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Agreed but It depends what lense you view it from.

    From my view it has been foreign military intervention with the intent of "more western acceptable" Regime change that has the ME fcuked.

    Of course not in all cases but in some.

    It is **** though, many places in the ME would be worth visiting....if it wasnt being blown to sh1t.

    Well yeah I get that, but at the same time, I feel there is something fundamental about the actual people of middle east that is leading to all this.

    I mean when you see Palestinian adults taking their children to Israel borders for 'peaceful protests', it just blows my mind. It's like the parents are conditioning them.


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    #306
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Thesiger wrote: »
    I imagine in 1945 people would have been looking back on decades of European warfare (on a much larger scale than anything that has happened in the Middle East) and centuries of European imperialism and thinking the same about Europe. During the 50s, 60s and 70s East and South-East Asia suffered turmoil to a degree probably not yet equaled by the Middle East’s current conflicts. Many of those countries which suffered most in those years are now growing economies and popular tourist destinations.

    Erm, not sure I'd agree with that. I think we can all agree that Germany was an extreme antagonist in an otherwise peaceful Europe, and although WW1 could have been avoided, WW2 certainly could not have. Still boggles my mind people could be that evil.

    As for south east asia from 50's to 70's, well at least they are over that now, and it doesn't seem to be an inextricable characteristic of them to be at war constantly, unlike the whole of the middle east atm. I hope your right that that strife in the middle east will pass in time in the same way it did in SE Asia.


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    #307
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    AllForIt wrote: »
    I mean when you see Palestinian adults taking their children to Israel borders for 'peaceful protests', it just blows my mind. It's like the parents are conditioning them.

    Yeah but that "type" of behaviour is not unique to the ME. There are global equivilent examples of "indoctrinating" the new batch, including in western countries.

    I get your point but there are also other motives surrounding children at border fences....particularly to discourage being shot at. Scumbag behaviour but true all the same.

    I do agree that ME people are very animated and emotive when debating or arguing. It looks mental from the outside.

    Its almost like Dictatorships are the better of two evils.


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    #308
    Jeff2
    Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Jeff2


    Jeff2 wrote: »
    Gaddafi said it best in long speech to UN I think after 911 about USA going after Countries in east and was laughed at by President of Syria and others.

    I'll find the video and post it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cpiPFkL0QY


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    #309
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Yeah but that "type" of behaviour is not unique to the ME. There are global equivilent examples of "indoctrinating" the new batch, including in western countries.

    I get your point but there are also other motives surrounding children at border fences....particularly to discourage being shot at. Scumbag behaviour but true all the same.

    I do agree that ME people are very animated and emotive when debating or arguing. It looks mental from the outside.

    Its almost like Dictatorships are the better of two evils.

    Yeah I'd agree with most of that, but I don't believe they take their own children to contentious spots for protection. Even if they did that's still weird.

    Edit: and you mention dictators, they do seem to enjoy having leader they idolize. Holding large painted pictures of their leader in demonstrations. That's totally weird and speaks to their total lack of interest in democracy.


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    #310
    Thesiger
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Thesiger


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Erm, not sure I'd agree with that. I think we can all agree that Germany was an extreme antagonist in an otherwise peaceful Europe

    I doubt the peoples of Asia, Africa and the Americas who were on the receiving end of European arms during the 19th century and earlier would go along with the notion of peaceful Europeans. And if you’re just speaking of internal turmoil and conflict, pre-WW1 I’d say nothing in the Middle East of the last 500 years compares with the Napoleonic Wars or the wars of religion in the 16/17th centuries in Europe. The Ottoman Empire had its frontier wars and peasant revolts, but no internecine conflict on that scale.*

    *edit - should add, until the empire started completely falling apart at the end.


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    #311
    utyh2ikcq9z76b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Well yeah I get that, but at the same time, I feel there is something fundamental about the actual people of middle east that is leading to all this.

    I mean when you see Palestinian adults taking their children to Israel borders for 'peaceful protests', it just blows my mind. It's like the parents are conditioning them.

    Not the genocide of the Palestine peoples and the stealing of their lands by Israel backed to the hilt with US money & weapons. Shooting dead kids for stone throwing. Breaking numerous international laws. Commiting wars crimes. If you had to live under apartheid you would protest as well.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/dec/20/icc-to-investigate-alleged-israeli-and-palestinian-war-crimes


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    #312
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,846 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Dislodging Hezbollah from Lebanon would have an effect on Iran and Syria. It would solve a lot of problems for Israel on its northern front too. It would take a full scale invasion to do it, and even then it might not work. Also, Israel is reluctant to go to war with Hezbollah after 2006.
    With this in mind it's very unlikely Israel were behind what happened at the port. Israel and America are probably seeking to undermine Hezbollah through economic pressure, hoping that the pressure leads to a tipping point that sees Hezbollah lose power and influence.


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    #313
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,846 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Well yeah I get that, but at the same time, I feel there is something fundamental about the actual people of middle east that is leading to all this.
    .



    It's not a surprise that you focus on the uncilivised natives as being the crux of the issue, if only these people would accept western democracy through force, because that always works well. They likely are not fundamentally different to you, but it might help to justify your position to see them as being so.

    The Palestinians should give flowers and cite poetry to their occupiers, instead of protesting. Afterall, this is what most people who are under occupation do


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    #314
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    AllForIt wrote: »
    God almighty, will I ever live a moment in my life where the America/France/England/Russia isn't in some kind of turmoil. Can they not just get their act together. They seem to revel in strife, it seems to be in their nature.

    See that can be taken for a lot of western countries too.


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    #315
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Yeah I'd agree with most of that, but I don't believe they take their own children to contentious spots for protection. Even if they did that's still weird.

    Edit: and you mention dictators, they do seem to enjoy having leader they idolize. Holding large painted pictures of their leader in demonstrations. That's totally weird and speaks to their total lack of interest in democracy.

    Imagine if thousands of Beirutis came out and peacefully protested against the government this weekend...


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    #316
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Imagine if thousands of Beirutis came out and peacefully protested against the government this weekend...

    They have been protesting this weekend.


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    #317
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    AllForIt wrote: »
    ...but I don't believe they take their own children to contentious spots for protection. Even if they did that's still weird.

    Yeah they do, weird and all as it sounds.

    Shoot at a demonstratir at a border? No big deal.

    Shoot at a demonstrator and kill a kid? Bigger deal.


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    #318
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    They have been protesting this weekend.

    That was my point. It was /sarcasm in response to the poster who thinks all Middle Eastern people idolise their leaders and abhor democracy.


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    #319
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    KiKi III wrote: »
    That was my point. It was /sarcasm in response to the poster who thinks all Middle Eastern people idolise their leaders and abhor democracy.

    Sorry, sarcasm meter was switched to idle :D


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    #320
    dere34
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭dere34


    Lebanese government including PM to resign in coming hours.


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    #321
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    dere34 wrote: »
    Lebanese government including PM to resign in coming hours.

    A regime more sympethetic to america or some other superpowers plight trying to buy up their precious metals at a good price probably. Probably take the copper at scrap price too.


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    #322
    dere34
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭dere34


    People still unhappy despite resignations.


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