Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

OK, when DID they leave the plane?

Not before the plane entered the building. There's no reason why they would leave the plane before entering the building. I'm not sure why you would suggest such a thing.
They most likely left the plane as it was breaking up while it was crashing into the building.

You keep avoiding the question.

Are those items fake, yes or no?

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

But the believers in chemtrails have tons of what they believe is evidence. Have you not looked at it?



Unfortunately, that is exactly what chemtrail believers do.
It's also exactly what Holocaust deniers claim they do.


Not really, as you believe the 9/11 conspiracy, you have to believe in the notion of silent explosive.

But I've seen no evidence that JFK was killed by a second gunman or that 9/11 was a hoax.
And unlike you, I've looked into both of these things.


It's physically impossible for the towers in 9/11 to have been secretly demolished.

Stay on topic. You're trying to deflect, muddy the waters and turn this into a circular discussion.

NIMAN

Physical items often survive explosions.

If you have ever read any books on the Troubles, you'd know that.

So a passport surviving an plane blowing up, or a wallet surviving is perfectly believable.

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Not before the plane entered the building. There's no reason why they would leave the plane before entering the building. I'm not sure why you would suggest such a thing.
They most likely left the plane as it was breaking up while it was crashing into the building.

You keep avoiding the question.

Are those items fake, yes or no?

The question of whether they are fake or not is besides the point. It's something that you have tried to ascertain and I'm not going to be drawn on it.


So when exactly did these items go from being inside the airplane cabin to being outside of it? You seem to be the expert so surely you won't mind giving the account of these personal effects.

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The question of whether they are fake or not is besides the point. It's something that you have tried to ascertain and I'm not going to be drawn on it.

Well it's important as they show such items can survive.
If these items can and did survive, then a passport can also survive.

Thus, you are trying the desperate and dishonest tactic of insinuating they are fake.

So, do you believe they are fake?
I don't think you do because you realise how silly that is, hence why you are avoiding the question. We shall proceed with this assumption. Feel free to correct it any time.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So when exactly did these items go from being inside the airplane cabin to being outside of it? You seem to be the expert so surely you won't mind giving the account of these personal effects.

Lol, I dunno. I never claimed to be an expert or have knowledge of their accounts.

And it's not really important as they evidently did go from inside the airplane cabin to outside of it and survived. (Unless you are going to claim they are fake or planted, which is dishonest and silly.)
And since it's possible for them to do so, it's possible for other things to do so, such as a passport.
Since it's possible for a passport to survive, then your argument that it's impossible for a passport to survive is shown to be false. QED.

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Did all these items leave the plane before it entered the building

I am not sure what you mean by leaving the plane before it entered the building? As the airliners hit the buildings (or the ground in Shanksville PA) the explosions would have ejected surviving material outwards (anything not incinerated by the fireball or trapped within the surviving structure in the case of the buildings)

or were they inside the building along with the burning wreckage and then they were scattered earthwards as the buildings came down?

To the best of my knowledge many of the perishables were discovered outside of the buildings. Basically just laying on the ground, e.g. the below seat cover



An American Airlines life vest



A lot of debris and items were ejected in a radius around the sites





This is an example of something that was found inside the rubble, from a passenger on Flight 11



Here are other items recovered from people who were working inside the Twin Towers, almost fully intact condition





Some of the recovered items were/are on display at the 9/11 memorial museum

ShatterAlan

NIMAN wrote: »

Physical items often survive explosions.

If you have ever read any books on the Troubles, you'd know that.

So a passport surviving an plane blowing up, or a wallet surviving is perfectly believable.

I'm perfectly aware of that NIMAN. I'll get to that.

ShatterAlan

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean by leaving the plane before it entered the building? As the airliners hit the buildings (or the ground in Shanksville PA) the explosions would have ejected surviving material outwards (anything not incinerated by the fireball or trapped within the surviving structure in the case of the buildings)



To the best of my knowledge many of the perishables were discovered outside of the buildings. Basically just laying on the ground, e.g. the below seat cover



An American Airlines life vest



A lot of debris and items were ejected in a radius around the sites





This is an example of something that was found inside the rubble, from a passenger on Flight 11



Here are other items recovered from people who were working inside the Twin Towers, almost fully intact condition





Some of the recovered items were/are on display at the 9/11 memorial museum

Were the items on the ground BEFORE the building came down or were the found in the rubble AFTER the buildings came down. I'm just trying to determine at what point they went from being inside the plane to being outside of it.

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Were the items on the ground BEFORE the building came down or were the found in the rubble AFTER the buildings came down. I'm just trying to determine at what point they went from being inside the plane to being outside of it.

Satam al-Suqami's passport was reportedly found on the sidewalk before the tower collapsed

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Were the items on the ground BEFORE the building came down or were the found in the rubble AFTER the buildings came down. I'm just trying to determine at what point they went from being inside the plane to being outside of it.

Lol, why?
What difference would that make?

The fact remains that they were inside the plane, yet they survived and were found.
If it's possible for those things, it's possible for other things like a passport since many of them are smaller and more fragile than a passport.

And since you've agreed that they aren't fake and weren't planted, you have to accept that it's possible for the passport to survive.

ShatterAlan

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Satam al-Suqami's passport was reportedly found on the sidewalk before the tower collapsed

So then OBVIOUSLY his passport left the plane before it entered the building or came through the building and was launched out the other side, correct?

There's no way that it could have been inside the building. A passport can't be in two places at one time, after all.


Which flight was he on? The first or the second?

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Lol, why?
What difference would that make?

The fact remains that they were inside the plane, yet they survived and were found.
If it's possible for those things, it's possible for other things like a passport since many of them are smaller and more fragile than a passport.

And since you've agreed that they aren't fake and weren't planted, you have to accept that it's possible for the passport to survive.

Calm down. It makes a difference to me. OK?

If you don't like what I'm asking then your perfectly free to disengage.

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So then OBVIOUSLY his passport left the plane before it entered the building or came through the building and was launched out the other side, correct?

Lol, what?

Neither of those things are true and neither is relevant.

The passport and other items that survived can't have left the plane before it entered the building. It is very bizarre you keep claiming this.

The passport and other items that survived could ahve been thrown form the building in a great number of ways. They could have been flung out of the far side of the impact. The could have been blown backwards out of the building by the explosion or other forces.
They could have come to a rest inside the building and were then forced out through some other event, such as a collapse etc.

The specifics don't really matter, because it's a fact those items were inside the plane, yet they survived and were later found.

Your question is simply desperate time wasting to avoid questions and points you cannot honestly address.

The Nal

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So then OBVIOUSLY his passport left the plane before it entered the building or came through the building and was launched out the other side, correct?

There's no way that it could have been inside the building. A passport can't be in two places at one time, after all.


Which flight was he on? The first or the second?

He was on the 1st plane. The nose of that plane nearly came out of the other side of the building. As did the 2nd planes nose. Debris from the planes and buildings got sprayed out everywhere. Glass, metal, plastic, bricks and yes, paper.

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Calm down. It makes a difference to me. OK?

If you don't like what I'm asking then your perfectly free to disengage.

You can ask away.
Still gonna point out how it's irrelevant and ridiculous and has no bearing on the facts.

Small fragile objects survived the plane crash and they were found. It's possible for a passport as well.

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Lol, what?

Neither of those things are true and neither is relevant.

The passport and other items that survived can't have left the plane before it entered the building. It is very bizarre you keep claiming this.

The passport and other items that survived could ahve been thrown form the building in a great number of ways. They could have been flung out of the far side of the impact. The could have been blown backwards out of the building by the explosion or other forces.
They could have come to a rest inside the building and were then forced out through some other event, such as a collapse etc.

The specifics don't really matter, because it's a fact those items were inside the plane, yet they survived and were later found.

Your question is simply desperate time wasting to avoid questions and points you cannot honestly address.

It's one or the other. The passport was found on the ground before the building collapsed so at no time could it have been inside the building just sitting there. Does that make sense to you? The building is still standing and the passport is on the ground according to DJ. Correct?

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

You can ask away.
Still gonna point out how it's irrelevant and ridiculous and has no bearing on the facts.

Small fragile objects survived the plane crash and they were found. It's possible for a passport as well.

Irrelevant to what exactly?

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's one or the other.

No, it's not. That is a false dichotomy with no bearing on reality.

And again, it still doesn't make sense that you keep suggesting that the items could leave the plane BEFORE it crashed.
Why do you keep suggesting this?

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The passport was found on the ground before the building collapsed so at no time could it have been inside the building just sitting there. Does that make sense to you? The building is still standing and the passport is on the ground according to DJ. Correct?

No, that's not correct. There's many different possibilities.
There were many forces at play.
The passport could have been resting in one spot the entire time after falling to the ground.
The passport could have been moved and kicked around during the commotion.
The passport could have been in the building for some time before falling to the ground. It having being pushed/blown out for a great number of reasons.
It's all irrelevant.

You are offering a silly simplistic scenario because you are desperately trying to avoid the point you don't want to address.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Irrelevant to what exactly?

To whether or not those items, the passport included could have survived.

Evidently, small fragile items survived and were found. That means the passport could have survived. Do you disagree?

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So then OBVIOUSLY his passport left the plane before it entered the building or came through the building and was launched out the other side, correct?

There's no way that it could have been inside the building. A passport can't be in two places at one time, after all.


Which flight was he on? The first or the second?

He was on AA11, the first plane to hit. The passport was found on the street before the first collapse, meaning yup it was ejected during the plane impact.

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Again, are you claiming all of these items are fake?
Yes or no?

I asked you a question.


Why are you answering it with another one?

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Lol, what?

Neither of those things are true and neither is relevant.

The passport and other items that survived can't have left the plane before it entered the building. It is very bizarre you keep claiming this.

The passport and other items that survived could ahve been thrown form the building in a great number of ways. They could have been flung out of the far side of the impact. The could have been blown backwards out of the building by the explosion or other forces.
They could have come to a rest inside the building and were then forced out through some other event, such as a collapse etc.

The specifics don't really matter, because it's a fact those items were inside the plane, yet they survived and were later found.

Your question is simply desperate time wasting to avoid questions and points you cannot honestly address.

If neither are true then how could it have been in the street whilst the building still stood?

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I asked you a question.


Why are you answering it with another one?

Sorry. Allow me to be clear.
I don't know. It's not relevant because the ring was found one way or another

Are you claiming or implying the items are fakeor planted?
Again you've not answered this question at all.

ShatterAlan

The Nal wrote: »

He was on the 1st plane. The nose of that plane nearly came out of the other side of the building. As did the 2nd planes nose. Debris from the planes and buildings got sprayed out everywhere. Glass, metal, plastic, bricks and yes, paper.

King Mob maintains that the passport could neither have left the plane prior to it entering the building OR after debris and detritus exited the building. So perhaps you might want to set him straight.

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If neither are true then how could it have been in the street whilst the building still stood?

It could have been one of the other possibilities I gave.

What's not true is that is a false dichotomy between a ridiculous notion you keep suggesting for some reason and a singular possibility.

You keep jumping around asking these odd questiins, yet continue to avoid the ones put to you

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

King Mob maintains that the passport could neither have left the plane prior to it entering the building OR after debris and detritus exited the building. So perhaps you might want to set him straight.

That is not my position. That is a dishonest strawman.
Your behaviour is becoming increasingly odd and desperate.

And also why do you keep suggesting the items could have left the plane before the crash? That's really odd...

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

No, it's not. That is a false dichotomy with no bearing on reality.

And again, it still doesn't make sense that you keep suggesting that the items could leave the plane BEFORE it crashed.
Why do you keep suggesting this?


No, that's not correct. There's many different possibilities.
There were many forces at play.
The passport could have been resting in one spot the entire time after falling to the ground.
The passport could have been moved and kicked around during the commotion.
The passport could have been in the building for some time before falling to the ground. It having being pushed/blown out for a great number of reasons.
It's all irrelevant.

You are offering a silly simplistic scenario because you are desperately trying to avoid the point you don't want to address.


To whether or not those items, the passport included could have survived.

Evidently, small fragile items survived and were found. That means the passport could have survived. Do you disagree?

I don't keep suggesting this.



The plane hit the building, penetrated it and some of it came out the other side, correct? What was inside the cabin must have left the inside of the plane and made its way to the ground at some point. Can you say when that was? Upon impact? Upon partial exit or somewhere in between whereby it was inside the building for a period of time but then somehow made it to the street below while the building still stood?

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The plane hit the building, penetrated it and some of it came out the other side, correct? What was inside the cabin must have left the inside of the plane and made its way to the ground at some point. Can you say when that was? Upon impact? Upon partial exit or somewhere in between whereby it was inside the building for a period of time but then somehow made it to the street below while the building still stood?

It was found some time between the 08:46 (AA11 impact) and 09:59 (the collapse of the S tower)

So it's safe to say it was likely ejected during the plane impact into the tower.

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I don't keep suggesting this.

but you do.
Why do you keep bringing up the idea of the items leaving the plane before the crash?

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What was inside the cabin must have left the inside of the plane and made its way to the ground at some point. Can you say when that was? Upon impact? Upon partial exit or somewhere in between whereby it was inside the building for a period of time but then somehow made it to the street below while the building still stood?

It could have been at any of those points. No one knows.
It's not relevant as it is a fact that items did leave the cabin of the plane and wind up on the ground.

If you have a point, please get to it and then answer the questions you keep ignoring.

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

It could have been one of the other possibilities I gave.

What's not true is that is a false dichotomy between a ridiculous notion you keep suggesting for some reason and a singular possibility.

You keep jumping around asking these odd questiins, yet continue to avoid the ones put to you

So you're suggesting that the passport could have been blown back out of the entry hole?


It makes its way backwards through a cabin and flaming and disintegrating metal fuselage barrelling forward at 100's of knots through a building? It flutters through this inferno out the entrance hole and falls to the street?

ShatterAlan

King Mob wrote: »

Lol, what?

Neither of those things are true and neither is relevant.

The passport and other items that survived can't have left the plane before it entered the building. It is very bizarre you keep claiming this.

The passport and other items that survived could ahve been thrown form the building in a great number of ways. They could have been flung out of the far side of the impact. The could have been blown backwards out of the building by the explosion or other forces.
They could have come to a rest inside the building and were then forced out through some other event, such as a collapse etc.

The specifics don't really matter, because it's a fact those items were inside the plane, yet they survived and were later found.

Your question is simply desperate time wasting to avoid questions and points you cannot honestly address.

But DJ said the passport was found in the street while the building still stood.


So how could it have been forced out of the building by an event such as "collapse"?