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What is our plan?

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12467…12

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    #92
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    hmmm wrote: »
    1918 had multiple waves, with wave 2 & 3 far worse than wave 1. That was influenza, but we can't assume anything with this virus.

    If Covid was left spread with no restrictions, we've no idea what the impact would be - although we can get some idea by looking at poor parts of the world where hospitals have been overwhelmed.

    It feels like the people of 2020 are arrogant enough to think this panademic will play out differently to the others. The maths behind it all are fairly simple, human nature hasn't changed and travel has multiplied. We will see.

    All our sacrifice, possibly for nothing.


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    #93
    completedit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    The_Brood wrote: »
    The plan is the well-off with their big back gardens and money to spend will be alright restrictions or not, while us the lower earners will suffer because we have nothing to turn to when they take everything away. The decision makers are of course higher earners so it's all ok for them, they don't give the slightest damn how much we are left to rot in the pissing rain.

    This is exactly it. It's easy to be pro-lock down and part of the 'if it saves one life' crowd when you have a nice close social circle, a garden to 'entertain' friends'(no house parties of course) and maybe a partner/kids.


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    #94
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    I think you need to be clearer on your plans, in particular, how do we keep numbers low without continuing strict measures until a vaccine? What is the exit plan to your plan?

    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.

    If we were strict enough to get to a New Zealand level of virtual eradication you could live normally with minimal measures as there is nothing to infect you. Do you remember that life?


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    #95
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,262 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    i_surge wrote: »
    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.

    If we were strict enough to get to a New Zealand level of virtual eradication you could live normally with minimal measures as there is nothing to infect you. Do you remember that life?

    Do you think it's all over in Asia and NZ or something?

    And again, what do we do when we've got to your "virtual eradication". Live on spuds and milk from the dairy herd?


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    #96
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    i_surge wrote: »
    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.
    Many of the Asian societies you are thinking of are less individualistic than we are. You need more than to copy their tactics, you'd need a brain transplant on society. The idea of holding a house party when society frowns on it would be unthinkable, over here you have people boasting about it.


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    #97
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    Do you think it's all over in Asia and NZ or something?

    Not over but in a significantly better place. Economically, healthwise and quality of life.

    Turkeys voting for Christmas here.


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    #98
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    hmmm wrote: »
    Many of the Asian societies you are thinking of are less individualistic than we are. You need more than to copy their tactics, you'd need a brain transplant on society. The idea of holding a house party when society frowns on it would be unthinkable, over here you have people boasting about it.

    So we shouldn't try?


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    #99
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    i_surge wrote: »
    So we shouldn't try?
    What are you proposing to try?

    The government are giving clear advice on social distancing, mask wearing, reduce social contacts etc. Large numbers are ignoring it (although most I think aren't).

    What works in Ireland is when public opinion does the enforcing.


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    #100
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    i_surge wrote: »
    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.

    If we were strict enough to get to a New Zealand level of virtual eradication you could live normally with minimal measures as there is nothing to infect you. Do you remember that life?

    Back to normal? We are running at 16% unemployment, what normal are these people returning to


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    #101
    nw1dqsv7amx026
    Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    hmmm wrote: »
    Agreed on the medicine bit - but 1918 had multiple waves, with wave 2 & 3 far worse than wave 1. That was influenza, we can't assume anything with this virus.

    If Covid was left spread with no restrictions, we've no idea what the impact would be - although we can get some idea by looking at poor parts of the world where hospitals have been overwhelmed.

    Just after 4 years of war. Nutrition not the best anyway. Food shortages. Of course they weren't as healthy.

    But, as medicine wasn't as good, people were dying earlier and not living as long. So, people who are alive today because of modern medicine might not have lived then.

    I'd suggest that in certain demographics, certainly people younger than me, that this virus is nowhere near as dangerous as Spanish flu.

    From what I have read on Spanish flu (not recently) there is widespread disagreement on it? The second waves you refer to, happened in places which had previously been locked down I think after they opened up.
    They even argue about the number of dead. Sounds familiar.


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    #102
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    i_surge wrote: »
    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.
    But this is where you need to elaborate. If, say, Vietnam is succesfully keeping numbers down without a lockdown at this very moment then why are you advocating a strict lockdown for Ireland? Why not copy what Vietnam are doing now and numbers in Ireland (which are already quite low) will drop further?

    We know that New Zealand maintained its low numbers by effectively closing their country to outsiders. Are you advocating this for Ireland? How might we handle the porous border with the North that has never been sealed even during the height of the troubles?


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    #103
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    Back to normal? We are running at 16% unemployment, what normal are these people returning to

    I give up. Too pessimistic.

    There is no magic wand, but an intelligent plan would be a start.


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    #104
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    But this is where you need to elaborate. If, say, Vietnam is succesfully keeping numbers down without a lockdown at this very moment then why are you advocating a strict lockdown for Ireland? Why not copy what Vietnam are doing now and numbers in Ireland (which are already quite low) will drop further?

    They didn't need one because they went appropriately hard at the start.

    I'm using it as an example of strong health policy allowing people to live normally.


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    #105
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,262 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    Do you think it's all over in Asia and NZ or something?

    And again, what do we do when we've got to your "virtual eradication". Live on spuds and milk from the dairy herd?
    i_surge wrote: »
    I give up. Too pessimistic.

    There is no magic wand, but an intelligent plan would be a start.

    You might not have seen the second part of my post earlier, I edited to add the question.

    Interested to hear your intelligent plan.....


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    #106
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,476 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    i_surge wrote: »
    Still better than the alternative.

    I would love to be in New Zealand or Vietnam right now.

    You'd seriously like to move to Vietnam and live under a communist regime because you've read on the internet that they've controlled Covid?

    Take the right precautions here and you'll be fine.

    Ireland is actually doing quiet well despite all the noise here.


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    #107
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Carter Fit Trance wrote: »
    From what I have read on Spanish flu (not recently) there is widespread disagreement on it? The second waves you refer to, happened in places which had previously been locked down I think after they opened up.
    They even argue about the number of dead. Sounds familiar.
    The first wave largely passed through un-noticed.

    The second wave saw large numbers of people sick in a very short period. There were isolated communities worldwide where over half the community died mostly due to starvation as no-one was well enough to care for the others.

    We know we can prevent the worst of this & future pandemics through lockdowns (which we've proved). We then need to struggle on as best we can until we get a vaccine.


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    #108
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    murpho999 wrote: »
    You'd seriously like to move to Vietnam and live under a communist regime because you've read on the internet that they've controlled Covid?

    Take the right precautions here and you'll be fine.

    Ireland is actually doing quiet well despite all the noise here.

    I've been there plenty, you can live as free there as anywhere in Europe.

    No commies under the bed, patriot.


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    #109
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    i_surge wrote: »
    OTT but it will most likely work well.

    The singapore (leg GPS tags) are OTT, the HK (bracelets) are more practical, has it merits but is also at the same time borderline invasive.

    Thanks to IOT, BT(LE), 5G and so on, the bracelet type scenario is on the horizon anyway, for the purpose of everyday convience, ID and monetary transactions.

    One big advantage for the bracelets is by using passive BTLE, a single charge up might last month(s) unlike the latest smartphone, which is easier to leave in a bag or shelve.


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    #110
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,476 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    i_surge wrote: »
    I've been there plenty, you can live as free there as anywhere in Europe.

    No commies under the bed, patriot.

    https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/vietnam

    Article above says the opposite but off you go then. I'm sure you'd get work there no problem too.


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    #111
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    You might not have seen the second part of my post earlier, I edited to add the question.

    Interested to hear your intelligent plan.....

    Pure strawmen pessimism.

    We can still import and export. You don't have to take it an illogical extreme.


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    #112
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭dubrov


    i_surge wrote: »
    Take any Asian country with low numbers and copy them. It has already been done.

    If we were strict enough to get to a New Zealand level of virtual eradication you could live normally with minimal measures as there is nothing to infect you. Do you remember that life?

    You could get it down to virtually eradicated levels but what then. Once you open up society, it would start growing again.

    You can't remove all social interaction in a lockdown as certain services are necessary. Given how asymptomatic many carriers are, I can't see how it can be completely eliminated.


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    #113
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,378 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    i_surge wrote: »
    I give up. Too pessimistic.

    Had to quote this.

    Too pessimistic!!

    I got a laugh out of this.

    Closing borders and social engineering over a virus thats been fatal to a very identifiable group of citizen's.

    If only a significant amount of those who died in Ireland could be protected in single story purpose built building's with round the clock care. It would be easy to protect them.

    Wait a minute . . . . .


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    #114
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,262 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    i_surge wrote: »
    Pure strawmen pessimism.

    We can still import and export. You don't have to take it an illogical extreme.

    And how do those imports and exports get in and out of the country? Robot drivers? Drivers who have to quarantine for 14 days every time they come in to the country?

    You really need to make a small bit of an effort to think your intelligent plans through.


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    #115
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,262 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Had to quote this.

    Too pessimistic!!

    I got a laugh out of this.

    Closing borders and social engineering over a virus thats been fatal to a very identifiable group of citizen's.

    If only a significant amount of those who died in Ireland could be protected in single story purpose built building's with round the clock care. It would be easy to protect them.

    Wait a minute . . . . .

    Do the carers get locked up for the duration? Families of said residents locked out? How do supplies get in and out?

    It's just a small-scale version of the "close the borders" argument.

    (I'm not denying that big mistakes were made in the nursing home sector btw)


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    #116
    aido79
    Registered Users Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    And how would you plan to get NI to close its border with the rest of the UK?

    Honestly, I'd love to be smoking what some posters in here are on!

    Its even more astonishing that people are suggesting this with all the border discussions during Brexit negotiations.


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    #117
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Had to quote this.

    Too pessimistic!!

    I got a laugh out of this.

    Closing borders and social engineering over a virus thats been fatal to a very identifiable group of citizen's.

    If only a significant amount of those who died in Ireland could be protected in single story purpose built building's with round the clock care. It would be easy to protect them.

    Wait a minute . . . . .

    Were you not banging on at at length about mental health and the economy?


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    #118
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    And how do those imports and exports get in and out of the country? Robot drivers? Drivers who have to quarantine for 14 days every time they come in to the country?

    You really need to make a small bit of an effort to think your intelligent plans through.

    You just lack creativity. For every problem, you create another.


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    #119
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,262 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    i_surge wrote: »
    You just lack creativity. For every problem, you create another.

    And I would suggest that you lack answers to practical issues.

    Grand statements alone won't get you very far.


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    #120
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    i_surge wrote: »
    You just lack creativity. For every problem, you create another.
    You still haven't explained how the follow-up to the lockdown would work. We could easily reduce current low numbers to zero but then what? This has been asked several times by several different people.

    Your idea does not work in the same way that the policies Ireland has so far followed have not worked in terms of having a solution that can be sustained as long as needed until there is a vaccine.


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    #121
    almostover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    hmmm wrote: »
    Many of the Asian societies you are thinking of are less individualistic than we are. You need more than to copy their tactics, you'd need a brain transplant on society. The idea of holding a house party when society frowns on it would be unthinkable, over here you have people boasting about it.

    That's us, midway between the group mentality of the east and the individualistic mentality of America. We're the best and worst of both worlds


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