The future of sex work in Ireland - due for debate/review in Dail Eireann

Yurt2

The_Brood wrote: »

No, I believe that you and many others fail to realize just how complex and deep mental issues go - someone may appear that they are willingly selling their body for the pleasure of others, but what leads them down such a path is often very sad and very troubled, often stretching back to childhood, with no one having been able to help them.

Similarly, of the main reasons human trafficking is so wide-spread and hard to break is because often the victims are conditioned for years, even decades to not only not run away, but defend and protect their abusers. Some can become experts at giving outsiders the impression that nothing is wrong and they are perfectly ok. But the dark reality is much different.

I remain to be convinced trafficking is a major problem in sex-work in Ireland. When it's there it should of course be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But, the overwhelming majority of women offer their services online free from pimps, madams and brothels. Ruhama produce articles from time to time from their that get published unquestioningly with perfect anonymous victims of trafficking. I'll be frank, the stories therein set my Spidey senses tingling. I don't trust that organization one bit.

And even if trafficking was a major problem, this law does nothing to solve it and drives the industry deeper underground, making any victim more vulnerable.

I don't think consensual sex work (which is the vast vast majority of the industry) should be conflated with trafficking, which everyone can agree is wrong.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Initial topic is, "revision of legality in Dail Eireann".

A relevant subtopic emerging seems to be, "why do some people go into sex work in the first place?".

I'll be the first to say - I'm curious about that myself.

I mean..... I'd be happy to speculate but, that's all it would be really.

A forum which gives some nice insights into this is reddit/sexworkers.

Simply, a woman with no professional job training can go from zero income to be able to afford her own place, costs of living and money in the bank, basically overnight.

In a perfect world I envision said chicks making initial bank, then using sex work to put themselves through college.

....

I have no idea if there's any substance to that.

....

One or two anecdotes as to why some women stay in sex work long term are,
- "it's addictive, the money comes so fast and easy".
- "the money"
- "freedom of choice, lifestyle, no constraints".

Who knows - who cares?

Point to focus on should be, like any other industry it requires standards of practice, and this will only EVER come by way of legitimization - and that is the topic being addressed in Irish parliament shortly.

.....

Just a final note - Netherlands - shining example of legitimized sex work, right?

Well, better than here - covid definitely revealed some issues but, they're not exempt from their own hypocrisy and oppressive measures also.

Dutch female politicians are just as prone to resentments of sex workers as anywhere else, though their culture is more tolerant which obviously gives way to greater leniency.

Just as a note cause, Dutch model is good - but it could be better.

Pawwed Rig

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

In a perfect world I envision said chicks making initial bank, then using sex work to put themselves through college.

Chicks??

In the US this happens more than here due to the astronomical cost of college there. Equally I knew a couple of girls that would strip for extra cash while studying. It gave a decent bit of cash for a low number of hours so suited them to do it.
As college is cheaper here you do not get the same need.

The_Brood

Yurt! wrote: »

I remain to be convinced trafficking is a major problem in sex-work in Ireland. When it's there it should of course be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But, the overwhelming majority of women offer their services online free from pimps, madams and brothels. Ruhama produce articles from time to time from their that get published unquestioningly with perfect anonymous victims of trafficking. I'll be frank, the stories therein set my Spidey senses tingling. I don't trust that organization one bit.

And even if trafficking was a major problem, this law does nothing to solve it and drives the industry deeper underground, making any victim more vulnerable.

I don't think consensual sex work (which is the vast vast majority of the industry) should be conflated with trafficking, which everyone can agree is wrong.

Perhaps this is why you haven't heard about it: Ireland ranked worst in western Europe for tackling human trafficking


When authorities fail to document the extent of the issue, most people won't know about it.

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

Perhaps this is why you haven't heard about it: Ireland ranked worst in western Europe for tackling human trafficking


When authorities fail to document the extent of the issue, most people won't know about it.

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

That article is written by an organisation of nuns - lol.

What do you expect they're gonna say?

Their contention is, all the workers are trafficked, "in every county across Ireland".

These are the people who contend that sex work in and of itself is commercialized rape.
As in, even if you're entirely voluntarily involved in sex work, you want to be there and enjoy the work - you're still being raped, by definition alone.

lol - yeah, that's the stance - I'm not taking the piss.

These are Irish catholic nuns - Irish catholic nuns are taking the piss.

Rabble rousers, these folk - a shining example of instability and incompetency, attempting to perpetuate both; I guess misery really does love company.

And worse still, their fear mongering clouds things so bad that, when genuine trafficking does happen, it slips through cracks - no thanks to Irish parliament falling hook, line, sinker for their doom-merchant bible thumping.

....

Legitimization of the sex trade as actual work, even if it eradicated trafficking entirely (hypothetically), would still not be good enough for them.

Cause why?

Cause the idea of young gals making easy money by having sex is deplorable to them.

Better they be punished, old school catholic church style.... (which not entirely coincidentally by way of their "reform" policies, they are being).


Cliff notes: linked report is bogus and not worth the paper its printed on.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

Let me bring you up to speed.

What I'm about to outline is reasonably par for the course for a subset of gals.

Gal grew up in Romania, finished school - country is a dump, corrupt, no life options.
She moves to Amsterdam.

Only job she can get cleaning hotel rooms, which does for six months, whilst living on her friends couch.

Then - she starts sex work.

Couple months more, she's got her own place.
Couple months after that, she's started investing in a place back in Romania to which she can retire after X number of years.

.....

She could have been a hotel cleaner, maybe later a bar maid etc - spent her days doing that but no - she had looks, she was hot.
She made an absolute killing in sex work and is now set up for life financially and a property in her home country, with the additional potential to return to 3rd level education if she so wishes.

.....

What's the difference between detractors like Sarah Benson and gals like this?

Easy:
Hot gals can set themselves up for life through SW.
People like Benson..... not so much.

Jealousy, resentment but "oh no, we help this terribly victimized girl find salvation in God" - institutions who historically left high death counts for girls they "adopted", amidst all the other unspeakable depravity that went on in those death factories, infant graves, corporal punishment etc.

The girls in sex work are setup with accommodation just fine.
If they don't like it, they can move, hell they move every single week.

34 homeless people, no accomodation, died on the streets of dublin last year.
Let the government worry about that.

Let the government worry about sex worker accommodation by way legitimization and QA (quality assurance) instead of letting some "NGO" worm their funds the fuckin' jackals.

The_Brood

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

That article is written by an organisation of nuns - lol.

What do you expect they're gonna say?

Their contention is, all the workers are trafficked, "in every county across Ireland".

These are the people who contend that sex work in and of itself is commercialized rape.
As in, even if you're entirely voluntarily involved in sex work, you want to be there and enjoy the work - you're still being raped, by definition alone.

lol - yeah, that's the stance - I'm not taking the piss.

These are Irish catholic nuns - Irish catholic nuns are taking the piss.

Rabble rousers, these folk - a shining example of instability and incompetency, attempting to perpetuate both; I guess misery really does love company.

And worse still, their fear mongering clouds things so bad that, when genuine trafficking does happen, it slips through cracks - no thanks to Irish parliament falling hook, line, sinker for their doom-merchant bible thumping.

....

Legitimization of the sex trade as actual work, even if it eradicated trafficking entirely (hypothetically), would still not be good enough for them.

Cause why?

Cause the idea of young gals making easy money by having sex is deplorable to them.

Better they be punished, old school catholic church style.... (which not entirely coincidentally by way of their "reform" policies, they are being).


Cliff notes: linked report is bogus and not worth the paper its printed on.

The Journal article was written by nuns? Did they write the Irish Times article as well? They run the US State department that published the report do they? And the The Immigrant Council of Ireland that said front line workers helping victims know what they're talking about? (as opposed to you)

Did you even read anything there? Or is your only thought-process "herp derp old catholics don't like it so it must be good!" Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

The Journal article was written by nuns? Did they write the Irish Times article as well? They run the US State department that published the report do they? And the The Immigrant Council of Ireland that said front line workers helping victims know what they're talking about? (as opposed to you)

Did you even read anything there? Or is your only thought-process "herp derp old catholics don't like it so it must be good!" Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

From the journal article,

“weakened deterrence, contributed to impunity for traffickers, and undermined efforts to support victims to testify”

All these are a function of Fitzgeralds 2017 criminalization bill.

Ireland was ranked in tier one until 2018 when it was reduced to tier two. It was reduced further to the tier two watchlist this year.

At the behest of the nunery, Fitzgeralds 2017 act has actively annually increased persecution of sex workers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26cqhXC-S2A

All the associated historical depravity of their institution compiled into 10 min.

Ireland has increased prosecutions and funding to NGOs for victim assistance.

i.e. government are now PAYING persecutors to do what they do best.

Increase in "prosecution" is documented - involved the incarceration of a pregnant sex worker and public name and shaming of a socially reclusive old age pensioner (i.e. living in a bedsit by himself at the ripe age of 70) who visited a sex worker.

Way to tackle "trafficking".

Condon said “safe, secure, gender-specific” accommodation is needed

They basically want to create Magdalene Laundries 2.0.

The_Brood wrote: »

Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

Synopsis - sex work is commercialized rape.

AmIRite?

suicide_circus

I've always thought people's bodies and sexual lives should be controlled by the state

biko

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Can you not respect the decision of some women who see it as a way of making a living?

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

biko

The myth of the happy hooker

All that first punter cared about, and the thousands after him wearing wedding rings and with baby seats in the backs of their cars, was that Moran was 15. Underage sex was, and is, a turn-on for many of the thousands of men – one in 15 – who prostitute 1,000 women and girls every day in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-myth-of-the-happy-hooker-1.1358702

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

So what is the percentage now?

biko

It's 0%, well until you find a happy hooker story for us to read.

OMM 0000

Remember almost all "trafficked" figures come from Ruhama, and Ruhama define trafficked as a foreign prostitute coming into Ireland. There is zero distinction made between foreign prostitutes who fly around Europe, and the extremely rare genuine trafficked cases. Also, Ruhama think all prostitution is forced, so their use of the word in their statistics is meaningless.

The anti-prostitution crowd are so dishonest and are against it for ideological reasons (Ruhama - extremist Catholic organisation, Limerick Rape Crisis Centre - extremist feminists) that I think any decisions on this topic should be based on data provided by the Gardai.

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

It's 0%, well until you find a happy hooker story for us to read.

And somewhere in between lies the truth.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

I don't know WHAT this mess is.

Sounds like a scene from "Taken" with Liam Neeson.
The only thing it's missing is the part where she was strung up on a pole whilst a bunch of rich dudes smoking cigars made bids on her.

....

If you think that sickness represents sex work in general, then you need to put the joint down.

OMM 0000

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

I don't know WHAT this mess is.

Sounds like a scene from "Taken" with Liam Neeson.
The only thing it's missing is the part where she was strung up on a pole whilst a bunch of rich dudes smoking cigars made bids on her.

....

If you think that sickness represents sex work in general, then you need to put the joint down.

I would bet money most of that story was invented by Ruhama and she was sent to the Independent as part of their propaganda campaign.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

The myth of the happy hooker

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-myth-of-the-happy-hooker-1.1358702

Rachel Moron - lol.

I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth.

Woman has got an axe to grind.

bo0li5eumx12kp

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I would bet money most of that story was invented by Ruhama and she was sent to the Independent as part of their propaganda campaign.

That was 1000% the first thought on my mind.

.....

I just felt it would be more appropriate someone other the the OP joining those dots so, kudos!

Yurt2

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

Rachel Moron - lol.

I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth.

Woman has got an axe to grind.

There was I recall a few years back, another sex worker who maintained Rachel's story was full of holes. She worked the same area of Dublin that Rachel claimed she did for years and was adamant she knew all the sex workers in the area, and Rachel was never among them.

Don't know what to make of that, but there's certainly at least one sex worker that would take issue with the veracity of her backstory.

OMM 0000

Yurt! wrote: »

There was I recall a few years back, another sex worker who maintained Rachel's story was full of holes. She worked the same area of Dublin that Rachel claimed she did for years and was adamant she knew all the sex workers in the area, and Rachel was never among them.

Don't know what to make of that, but there's certainly at least one sex worker that would take issue with the veracity of her backstory.

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This idea of smuggling a woman into the country and 10s of men raping her every day is a fantasy. I remember reading an interview with the Gardai who is in charge of prostitution stuff, and he said he's never seen it and there's no reason for it to exist - there are tons of women willing to be prostitutes, so there's no need to risk serious jail time by kidnapping and raping people.

Unfortunately it's an emotive topic so people want to believe the fantasies.

bo0li5eumx12kp

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This idea of smuggling a woman into the country and 10s of men raping her every day is a fantasy. I remember reading an interview with the Gardai who is in charge of prostitution stuff, and he said he's never seen it and there's no reason for it to exist - there are tons of women willing to be prostitutes, so there's no need to risk serious jail time by kidnapping and raping people.

Unfortunately it's an emotive topic so people want to believe the fantasies.

It does go to show however, the depths the anti-sex work campaigners will go to, to tarnish the name of the practice.

I mean, we saw in the magdalene laundry video the inhumanity they practiced, so it shouldn't really be a surprise - but fact remains that, in this day and age with globalism and information sharing, the internet etc - they're effectively still promoting this propaganda, not only getting away with it - but having it endorsed by national ministers....

But yeah, the likes of Moran and Sarah Benson, Barbara Condon and fact remains, Madigan - former minister for culture; Fitzgerald, MEP - they effectively back these myths as a means to suppress a practice that obviously impinges on their personal sensibilities also.


Again I think it highlights the hypocrisy of their endeavours - they condemn a practice for its supposed depravity - yet they'll stoop to far more despicable depths, for no other reason to protect their own sensibilities and/or vent their own emotional shortcomings.

And finally - they're unstable women, we get it, on some morbid level, it's to be expected - but where are the likes of Varadkar and Simon Harris when it comes to consolidating/passing policy change proposals?

They invested enough time and energy into homosexual marriage, which was again a fantastic step forward for a historically sexually oppressive nation, and huge blow to that oppressive mindset - so why aren't they anywhere to be found on a cultural and nationally emotive matter potentially far more explosive and far reaching?

Leo, Simon - "a safer, healthier, more inclusive environment for all" - do you stand by your comments?

OMM 0000

I think it comes down to a simple question:

What make prostitutes safer: making prostitution legal, clean and regulated, or making it illegal and pushing it underground?

It's a no brainer.

The fact these activists don't care about prostitutes' safety shows they shouldn't be listened to.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This could very well be true, but the newspapers don't agree with you.
Or can you find an Irish Times article in the vein of "Siobhan, 23 - how I sold sex to pay for college".

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

This could very well be true, but the newspapers don't agree with you.
Or can you find an Irish Times article in the vein of "Siobhan, 23 - how I sold sex to pay for college".

The newspapers post Ruhama garbage as fact.

Ruhama are quite clever. They know they have a bad reputation, so they started giving their articles to the Immigrant Council, and then getting them to publish the articles as their own.

Also, Ruhama have stopped putting their name in their articles.

Basically you can't believe any of this **** as it's so often just a Ruhama press release. They're scum.

Go talk to some prostitutes. Learn the reality about the trade and how it's nothing like what Ruhama want you to believe.

biko

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

I believe it does happen of course. It is abhorrent and should be detected and the traffickers prosecuted. We have very little evidence to suggest it is widespread, and we have had zero prosecutions of sex trafficking despite Ruhama claiming they churn up hundreds of cases a year.

A Ruhama spokesperson in an article I read today (I think it may be linked on this thread) said there are women trafficked for sex work in every town and village in Ireland. That's complete horsesh*t, and they need to be challenged on it.

They are seriously not an organization to be trusted.

biko

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

‘Jenny’ has been working as a ‘sex worker’ for the past year and a half, having started working in Germany through an agency.
She told us that the original reason she began working in this industry was out of a desire to “try it out”.

Despite not wanting to continue working as a ‘sex worker’ once back in Ireland,
Jenny decided to get back into the industry due to mounting living costs and college expenses.

Jenny believes that if the government made changes such as more money for single parents or
free third level education women would be more inclined to leave the sex industry in favour of other work.

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

Last couple of paragraphs. Jenny is opposed to the Ruhama inspired law as it potentially criminalizes partners living with her.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Just an FYI on this, another "survey" published by some feminist group done in Amsterdams red light district, showed an insanely high percentage of "trafficking".

Come to find out that, their criteria for being "trafficked" is working without a visa. See, working for 6 months or less means you're tax exempt.

So naturally the gals want to milk that, they overstay their 6 months permit, net some extra bank - all is right with the world.

The click baiters spun the whole deal to make it look like 20% of window girls were working under the thumb of some vial male-madam - when the reality was nothing of the sort.

Simple tactics like these rouse public opposition and make for some popcorn headlines, gain favour, earn government funding, pay their salary etc; it's step 1.0.1. in the feminist/anti-sex work campaigner manual.

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Do I think women are kidnapped, smuggled into Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, that's obvious fantasy.

Do I think women are tricked into coming to Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, of course not.

Do I think weak or vulnerable women can be convinced to be prostitutes and manipulated to give part of their earnings to someone and not quit? Yes.

If prostitution was legalised it would not be possible to force someone to work in one of the regulated brothels. There will always be a black market (e.g. the women who can't qualify for a regulated brothel because of HIV or something) but I cannot think of any reason why more women would be trafficked.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

Why did you link an article that doesn't bolster your point of view at all?

lol

Although many women have partners outside of their work, these partners who “live off the avails” could be considered a ‘pimp’ under current law; this can also include escorts children. Also escorts working together from an apartment can be convicted of running a brothel. These are current laws which Jenny is against and wants to see changed.

biko

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

Why did you link an article that doesn't bolster your point of view at all?

lol

Because it's not about winning, it's about showing all sides of the debate.
In the end it's the opinion of Irish women that prostitute themselves that matter, not mine and not yours.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Do I think women are kidnapped, smuggled into Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, that's obvious fantasy.

Do I think women are tricked into coming to Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, of course not.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

When it comes to third world countries, pffff - I mean they still believe in witchcraft down there.
Who know what those sick assholes get up to.

That article basically refers to child exploitation and pedophilia.
I had heard of multiple reports of child exploitation busts in Thailand, another third world country.
Several busts mentioned as to Dutch child exploitation rings.

.....

It's sick shit, but it ultimately doesn't pertain to "sex work" in the conventional sense - as in women selling their bodies to men, as it's legitimately licensed in some countries.

That is to say, upcoming review of this sex work law will almost certainly not factor in child exploitation.

No one is on the fence about that - it's wrong, no exceptions.

As far as I'm concerned, for pushers of that trade: no trial, no jury - straight to execution.

.....

But as a result of Fitzgeralds 2017 law, cops have been busting OAP's and pregnant escorts, and that's what this review is going to consider.

Not to mention, Nigerian criminal gangs is outside the jurisdiction of the Irish department of justice.


It's an interesting point for sure and something to bear in mind, but ultimately in no way bolsters an argument that supports the criminalization of legitimate, of-consenting-age, sex work.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Because it's not about winning, it's about showing all sides of the debate.
In the end it's the opinion of Irish women that prostitute themselves that matter, not mine and not yours.

In reality that couldn't be farther from the truth.

You think Josepha Madigan gives a damn what some gal half her age wants or does not want?

You think she's going to endorse a practice in society that could corrupt her son, who's almost about nightclub going age and could be tempted by these sins of the flesh? (despite the fact that her entire career was based around "sleeping her way to the top", a fact she gleefully trumpeted about herself in her bestselling novel?)

biko

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

I seriously doubt there are Irish men paying to rape little black children in Ireland.

I get the feeling you'll believe anything.

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

The stakeholders consulted in that report include Ruhama, Men's Development Network (Ruhama's finger wagging male wing), and the Immigrant Council of Ireland. All three of those exist cheek by jowl and have a crossover of personalities involved.


No sex workers consulted, and in fact sex workers have been actively excluded from input the whole way, the 'fallen women' that they are. Famously, Ruhama refused to share a platform at a seminar in UCC with a sex worker representative and said they would be a no-show unless she was dis-invited. Ruhama speak for no one but themselves, and particularly not sex workers.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I seriously doubt there are Irish men paying to rape little black children in Ireland.

I get the feeling you'll believe anything.

Why are there no sources in your posts, it's just you having feelings about this and that?

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

Sex workers, customers, public. Everyone really except the people who are disgusted by the notion of sex work (but are not actually affected by it).
Rarely do you see sex workers themselves be given a voice. Why do you think that is?
It is because it goes against the popular narrative that is why

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

Why are there no sources in your posts, it's just you having feelings about this and that?

I get the feeling you just think men are horrible and want to believe they're rapists.

Ask yourself why no one has ever been arrested for raping a trafficked child in Ireland. Because it doesn't exist except in the fantasies of women (and weak men) who hate men.

I personally think criminalising the purchase but not the selling puts both men and women in danger.

Scenario: A man visits a woman whose ad he saw online. She seems upset and when he asks her whats is wrong she discloses she has been trafficked and wants to get out. She asks him to help her.

Does the man:

A) Report what he has heard to Gardai, thereby admitting he has purchased sex which is illegal and therefore implicating himself.

Go home and pretend it didn't happen.

When purchasing is illegal, I think most people would go with option B.

There are any number of variations of the above scenario where someone could be in danger and need help, but most people will go with Option B, to save themselves from getting in trouble.

Eric Cartman

https://www.thejournal.ie/accomodation-to-be-set-up-for-victims-of-sexual-exploitation-living-in-direct-provision-5171918-Aug2020/

For those saying the trafficking is a myth

OMM 0000

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/accomodation-to-be-set-up-for-victims-of-sexual-exploitation-living-in-direct-provision-5171918-Aug2020/

For those saying the trafficking is a myth

It's an article by Ruhama and the Immigrant Council. They make **** up.

Once you understand they consider all prostitution "forced" and all foreign born prostitutes "trafficked", their articles stop making sense.

So if a Spanish woman flies to Ireland, wants to be a prostitute, and likes it, according to Ruhama and the Immigrant Council she is being sexually exploited and trafficked.

Ruhama are literally run by the people who ran the Magdalene Laundries (seriously).

Yurt2

I actually can't believe they're farming out a direct provision centre (for all intents and purposes) to Ruhama. What a country.

OMM 0000

Yurt! wrote: »

I actually can't believe they're farming out a direct provision centre (for all intents and purposes) to Ruhama. What a country.

It is an absolute joke.

I've got to hand it to Ruhama though - they are good at what they do (lying, manipulating, fund raising, etc.)

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

That's actually kind of taking things out of context.

It more alludes to a need for law reform within the bill, specifically to target potential traffickers and focus less on harmless folk - which is what it has thus far been doing (low hanging fruit) - basically so they can get convictions of some kind.

Something which Sara Benson and Rachel Moran have explicitly publically pushed for (i.e. they want to punish, not reform - personal instabilities etc).


It's self defeating convention to date, as legit sex workers REQUIRE facilitation.

Only work around to this by logic is, for the state to license facilitators and make sure they don't overstep any moral boundaries.
i.e. keep them puppies on a leash.

Again an example of this is the all around fairly decent site Escort Ireland being state licensured and regulated, ensure they're prohibited from fraudulence which they currently engage in for additional profit (allowing one worker to run multiple plagiarized profiles, false advertising etc)


And no - my contention is not "to make prostitution legal" - my contention is to legitimize its practice entirely (as with any legit business and/or practice) and introduce it into society as a staple part of culture - something that would make the feminists and emotionally unstable'ists heads melt.

Pawwed Rig

If you took the church out of the debate the whole landscape would change.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It is an absolute joke.

I've got to hand it to Ruhama though - they are good at what they do (lying, manipulating, fund raising, etc.)

I find it strange that you keep repeating this but have no proof.
Also, it's strange that an NGO that tries to protect women is getting so much stick from you. I'm not sure why.
Do you have a source that Ruhama is not looking out for women?