The future of sex work in Ireland - due for debate/review in Dail Eireann

biko

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?
Why do you buy sex? Is masturbation not enough? You have to be inside another human being that probably don't want you there?

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?
Why do you buy sex? Is masturbation not enough? You have to be inside another human being that probably don't want you there?

You'd be assuming wrong. But that's an expected jibe. Not that I have any strong moral opinions about whatever consenting adults do indoors, save that the state has no business in it whatsover.

ThewhiteJesus

As long as there’s a happy ending

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Why do you buy sex?

BorneTobyWilde

biko wrote: »

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?
Why do you buy sex? Is masturbation not enough? You have to be inside another human being that probably don't want you there?

Lol never have, never would. I just believe in live and let live. They should put huge effort into catching sex traffickers, and huge effort into protecting and giving rights to sex workers.

IAMAMORON

biko wrote: »

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?
Why do you buy sex? Is masturbation not enough? You have to be inside another human being that probably don't want you there?

Text book guilt shaming.....

This is supposed to be a productive discussion on the merits of changing current legislation pertaining to sex workers and clients.

It is not an opportunity for the interrogation of the parameters of a nations depravity. Although I will go there if you want.

biko

biko wrote: »

If no-one is selling then no-one can buy either.
By only making the buying illegal you are just doing something half-arsed.

Why is the buying of sex an issue for you. You're not really addressing the issue, but skirting around it.

biko wrote: »

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?
Why do you buy sex?

That's a childlike assumption. For starters you'll note that I said you'd want to be really sad to buy sex. But, there will always be sex bought and sold. You do realise making it illegal hasn't stopped it. So, let's make it regulated and safe for the sex workers.

The_Brood

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Of course they do. There are plenty of independent women that use it as a means of making a living. You are projecting your own thoughts on the practice to everybody.

No, I believe that you and many others fail to realize just how complex and deep mental issues go - someone may appear that they are willingly selling their body for the pleasure of others, but what leads them down such a path is often very sad and very troubled, often stretching back to childhood, with no one having been able to help them.

Similarly, one of the main reasons human trafficking is so wide-spread and hard to break is because often the victims are conditioned for years, even decades to not only not run away, but defend and protect their abusers. Some can become experts at giving outsiders the impression that nothing is wrong and they are perfectly ok. But the dark reality is much different.

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

Am I right in assuming people that defend prostitution also buy sex regularly?

That is a bit of a strange leap to make.

I have never purchased sex but would not criticise someone who does. Nor would I look down on a man or woman that use it as a way of making a living.


Equally I defend peoples rights to do lots of things that I do not partake in personally - own a dog, race cars, smoke, go into politics, have a same sex partner etc etc etc
Defending something does not mean one partakes in it.


Can you not respect the decision of some women who see it as a way of making a living? If not then why should a woman not be allowed to make her own decisions about her own body*?


*remind you of a recent referendum at all?

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

No, I believe that you and many others fail to realize just how complex and deep mental issues go - someone may appear that they are willingly selling their body for the pleasure of others, but what leads them down such a path is often very sad and very troubled, often stretching back to childhood, with no one having been able to help them.

Similarly, one of the main reasons human trafficking is so wide-spread and hard to break is because often the victims are conditioned for years, even decades to not only not run away, but defend and protect their abusers. Some can become experts at giving outsiders the impression that nothing is wrong and they are perfectly ok. But the dark reality is much different.

You believe compromising their work environment and potentially leaving them to be trapped under the thumb of their oppressors indefinitely via a failing national policy is a potential remedy to that situation?

Yurt2

The_Brood wrote: »

No, I believe that you and many others fail to realize just how complex and deep mental issues go - someone may appear that they are willingly selling their body for the pleasure of others, but what leads them down such a path is often very sad and very troubled, often stretching back to childhood, with no one having been able to help them.

Similarly, of the main reasons human trafficking is so wide-spread and hard to break is because often the victims are conditioned for years, even decades to not only not run away, but defend and protect their abusers. Some can become experts at giving outsiders the impression that nothing is wrong and they are perfectly ok. But the dark reality is much different.

I remain to be convinced trafficking is a major problem in sex-work in Ireland. When it's there it should of course be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But, the overwhelming majority of women offer their services online free from pimps, madams and brothels. Ruhama produce articles from time to time from their that get published unquestioningly with perfect anonymous victims of trafficking. I'll be frank, the stories therein set my Spidey senses tingling. I don't trust that organization one bit.

And even if trafficking was a major problem, this law does nothing to solve it and drives the industry deeper underground, making any victim more vulnerable.

I don't think consensual sex work (which is the vast vast majority of the industry) should be conflated with trafficking, which everyone can agree is wrong.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Initial topic is, "revision of legality in Dail Eireann".

A relevant subtopic emerging seems to be, "why do some people go into sex work in the first place?".

I'll be the first to say - I'm curious about that myself.

I mean..... I'd be happy to speculate but, that's all it would be really.

A forum which gives some nice insights into this is reddit/sexworkers.

Simply, a woman with no professional job training can go from zero income to be able to afford her own place, costs of living and money in the bank, basically overnight.

In a perfect world I envision said chicks making initial bank, then using sex work to put themselves through college.

....

I have no idea if there's any substance to that.

....

One or two anecdotes as to why some women stay in sex work long term are,
- "it's addictive, the money comes so fast and easy".
- "the money"
- "freedom of choice, lifestyle, no constraints".

Who knows - who cares?

Point to focus on should be, like any other industry it requires standards of practice, and this will only EVER come by way of legitimization - and that is the topic being addressed in Irish parliament shortly.

.....

Just a final note - Netherlands - shining example of legitimized sex work, right?

Well, better than here - covid definitely revealed some issues but, they're not exempt from their own hypocrisy and oppressive measures also.

Dutch female politicians are just as prone to resentments of sex workers as anywhere else, though their culture is more tolerant which obviously gives way to greater leniency.

Just as a note cause, Dutch model is good - but it could be better.

Pawwed Rig

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

In a perfect world I envision said chicks making initial bank, then using sex work to put themselves through college.

Chicks??

In the US this happens more than here due to the astronomical cost of college there. Equally I knew a couple of girls that would strip for extra cash while studying. It gave a decent bit of cash for a low number of hours so suited them to do it.
As college is cheaper here you do not get the same need.

The_Brood

Yurt! wrote: »

I remain to be convinced trafficking is a major problem in sex-work in Ireland. When it's there it should of course be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But, the overwhelming majority of women offer their services online free from pimps, madams and brothels. Ruhama produce articles from time to time from their that get published unquestioningly with perfect anonymous victims of trafficking. I'll be frank, the stories therein set my Spidey senses tingling. I don't trust that organization one bit.

And even if trafficking was a major problem, this law does nothing to solve it and drives the industry deeper underground, making any victim more vulnerable.

I don't think consensual sex work (which is the vast vast majority of the industry) should be conflated with trafficking, which everyone can agree is wrong.

Perhaps this is why you haven't heard about it: Ireland ranked worst in western Europe for tackling human trafficking


When authorities fail to document the extent of the issue, most people won't know about it.

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

Perhaps this is why you haven't heard about it: Ireland ranked worst in western Europe for tackling human trafficking


When authorities fail to document the extent of the issue, most people won't know about it.

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

That article is written by an organisation of nuns - lol.

What do you expect they're gonna say?

Their contention is, all the workers are trafficked, "in every county across Ireland".

These are the people who contend that sex work in and of itself is commercialized rape.
As in, even if you're entirely voluntarily involved in sex work, you want to be there and enjoy the work - you're still being raped, by definition alone.

lol - yeah, that's the stance - I'm not taking the piss.

These are Irish catholic nuns - Irish catholic nuns are taking the piss.

Rabble rousers, these folk - a shining example of instability and incompetency, attempting to perpetuate both; I guess misery really does love company.

And worse still, their fear mongering clouds things so bad that, when genuine trafficking does happen, it slips through cracks - no thanks to Irish parliament falling hook, line, sinker for their doom-merchant bible thumping.

....

Legitimization of the sex trade as actual work, even if it eradicated trafficking entirely (hypothetically), would still not be good enough for them.

Cause why?

Cause the idea of young gals making easy money by having sex is deplorable to them.

Better they be punished, old school catholic church style.... (which not entirely coincidentally by way of their "reform" policies, they are being).


Cliff notes: linked report is bogus and not worth the paper its printed on.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

And again, what you believe is "consent" is years/decades of mental health and related issues creating desperation. The law itself either way won't solve this. People in these situations need a big amount of help whatever is legal or not legal. But presenting the sale of other people's bodies as "sure it's grand, it's just like plumbing" is pathetic and speaks for itself.

Let me bring you up to speed.

What I'm about to outline is reasonably par for the course for a subset of gals.

Gal grew up in Romania, finished school - country is a dump, corrupt, no life options.
She moves to Amsterdam.

Only job she can get cleaning hotel rooms, which does for six months, whilst living on her friends couch.

Then - she starts sex work.

Couple months more, she's got her own place.
Couple months after that, she's started investing in a place back in Romania to which she can retire after X number of years.

.....

She could have been a hotel cleaner, maybe later a bar maid etc - spent her days doing that but no - she had looks, she was hot.
She made an absolute killing in sex work and is now set up for life financially and a property in her home country, with the additional potential to return to 3rd level education if she so wishes.

.....

What's the difference between detractors like Sarah Benson and gals like this?

Easy:
Hot gals can set themselves up for life through SW.
People like Benson..... not so much.

Jealousy, resentment but "oh no, we help this terribly victimized girl find salvation in God" - institutions who historically left high death counts for girls they "adopted", amidst all the other unspeakable depravity that went on in those death factories, infant graves, corporal punishment etc.

The girls in sex work are setup with accommodation just fine.
If they don't like it, they can move, hell they move every single week.

34 homeless people, no accomodation, died on the streets of dublin last year.
Let the government worry about that.

Let the government worry about sex worker accommodation by way legitimization and QA (quality assurance) instead of letting some "NGO" worm their funds the fuckin' jackals.

The_Brood

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

That article is written by an organisation of nuns - lol.

What do you expect they're gonna say?

Their contention is, all the workers are trafficked, "in every county across Ireland".

These are the people who contend that sex work in and of itself is commercialized rape.
As in, even if you're entirely voluntarily involved in sex work, you want to be there and enjoy the work - you're still being raped, by definition alone.

lol - yeah, that's the stance - I'm not taking the piss.

These are Irish catholic nuns - Irish catholic nuns are taking the piss.

Rabble rousers, these folk - a shining example of instability and incompetency, attempting to perpetuate both; I guess misery really does love company.

And worse still, their fear mongering clouds things so bad that, when genuine trafficking does happen, it slips through cracks - no thanks to Irish parliament falling hook, line, sinker for their doom-merchant bible thumping.

....

Legitimization of the sex trade as actual work, even if it eradicated trafficking entirely (hypothetically), would still not be good enough for them.

Cause why?

Cause the idea of young gals making easy money by having sex is deplorable to them.

Better they be punished, old school catholic church style.... (which not entirely coincidentally by way of their "reform" policies, they are being).


Cliff notes: linked report is bogus and not worth the paper its printed on.

The Journal article was written by nuns? Did they write the Irish Times article as well? They run the US State department that published the report do they? And the The Immigrant Council of Ireland that said front line workers helping victims know what they're talking about? (as opposed to you)

Did you even read anything there? Or is your only thought-process "herp derp old catholics don't like it so it must be good!" Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The_Brood wrote: »

The Journal article was written by nuns? Did they write the Irish Times article as well? They run the US State department that published the report do they? And the The Immigrant Council of Ireland that said front line workers helping victims know what they're talking about? (as opposed to you)

Did you even read anything there? Or is your only thought-process "herp derp old catholics don't like it so it must be good!" Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

From the journal article,

“weakened deterrence, contributed to impunity for traffickers, and undermined efforts to support victims to testify”

All these are a function of Fitzgeralds 2017 criminalization bill.

Ireland was ranked in tier one until 2018 when it was reduced to tier two. It was reduced further to the tier two watchlist this year.

At the behest of the nunery, Fitzgeralds 2017 act has actively annually increased persecution of sex workers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26cqhXC-S2A

All the associated historical depravity of their institution compiled into 10 min.

Ireland has increased prosecutions and funding to NGOs for victim assistance.

i.e. government are now PAYING persecutors to do what they do best.

Increase in "prosecution" is documented - involved the incarceration of a pregnant sex worker and public name and shaming of a socially reclusive old age pensioner (i.e. living in a bedsit by himself at the ripe age of 70) who visited a sex worker.

Way to tackle "trafficking".

Condon said “safe, secure, gender-specific” accommodation is needed

They basically want to create Magdalene Laundries 2.0.

The_Brood wrote: »

Cliff notes: People who sell their bodies in such a way are always trapped, whether by other people, or by abuse and difficulties in their lives, and people who pay to use them in such a way are abusers.

Synopsis - sex work is commercialized rape.

AmIRite?

suicide_circus

I've always thought people's bodies and sexual lives should be controlled by the state

biko

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Can you not respect the decision of some women who see it as a way of making a living?

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

biko

The myth of the happy hooker

All that first punter cared about, and the thousands after him wearing wedding rings and with baby seats in the backs of their cars, was that Moran was 15. Underage sex was, and is, a turn-on for many of the thousands of men – one in 15 – who prostitute 1,000 women and girls every day in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-myth-of-the-happy-hooker-1.1358702

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

So what is the percentage now?

biko

It's 0%, well until you find a happy hooker story for us to read.

OMM 0000

Remember almost all "trafficked" figures come from Ruhama, and Ruhama define trafficked as a foreign prostitute coming into Ireland. There is zero distinction made between foreign prostitutes who fly around Europe, and the extremely rare genuine trafficked cases. Also, Ruhama think all prostitution is forced, so their use of the word in their statistics is meaningless.

The anti-prostitution crowd are so dishonest and are against it for ideological reasons (Ruhama - extremist Catholic organisation, Limerick Rape Crisis Centre - extremist feminists) that I think any decisions on this topic should be based on data provided by the Gardai.

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

It's 0%, well until you find a happy hooker story for us to read.

And somewhere in between lies the truth.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Yes, when the happy hookers are 99% of the "workforce" I will.

Until then I will side with the trafficked women brought here for the enjoyment of Irish men.

I don't know WHAT this mess is.

Sounds like a scene from "Taken" with Liam Neeson.
The only thing it's missing is the part where she was strung up on a pole whilst a bunch of rich dudes smoking cigars made bids on her.

....

If you think that sickness represents sex work in general, then you need to put the joint down.

OMM 0000

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

I don't know WHAT this mess is.

Sounds like a scene from "Taken" with Liam Neeson.
The only thing it's missing is the part where she was strung up on a pole whilst a bunch of rich dudes smoking cigars made bids on her.

....

If you think that sickness represents sex work in general, then you need to put the joint down.

I would bet money most of that story was invented by Ruhama and she was sent to the Independent as part of their propaganda campaign.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

The myth of the happy hooker

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-myth-of-the-happy-hooker-1.1358702

Rachel Moron - lol.

I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth.

Woman has got an axe to grind.

bo0li5eumx12kp

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I would bet money most of that story was invented by Ruhama and she was sent to the Independent as part of their propaganda campaign.

That was 1000% the first thought on my mind.

.....

I just felt it would be more appropriate someone other the the OP joining those dots so, kudos!

Yurt2

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

Rachel Moron - lol.

I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth.

Woman has got an axe to grind.

There was I recall a few years back, another sex worker who maintained Rachel's story was full of holes. She worked the same area of Dublin that Rachel claimed she did for years and was adamant she knew all the sex workers in the area, and Rachel was never among them.

Don't know what to make of that, but there's certainly at least one sex worker that would take issue with the veracity of her backstory.