The future of sex work in Ireland - due for debate/review in Dail Eireann

OMM 0000

Yurt! wrote: »

There was I recall a few years back, another sex worker who maintained Rachel's story was full of holes. She worked the same area of Dublin that Rachel claimed she did for years and was adamant she knew all the sex workers in the area, and Rachel was never among them.

Don't know what to make of that, but there's certainly at least one sex worker that would take issue with the veracity of her backstory.

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This idea of smuggling a woman into the country and 10s of men raping her every day is a fantasy. I remember reading an interview with the Gardai who is in charge of prostitution stuff, and he said he's never seen it and there's no reason for it to exist - there are tons of women willing to be prostitutes, so there's no need to risk serious jail time by kidnapping and raping people.

Unfortunately it's an emotive topic so people want to believe the fantasies.

bo0li5eumx12kp

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This idea of smuggling a woman into the country and 10s of men raping her every day is a fantasy. I remember reading an interview with the Gardai who is in charge of prostitution stuff, and he said he's never seen it and there's no reason for it to exist - there are tons of women willing to be prostitutes, so there's no need to risk serious jail time by kidnapping and raping people.

Unfortunately it's an emotive topic so people want to believe the fantasies.

It does go to show however, the depths the anti-sex work campaigners will go to, to tarnish the name of the practice.

I mean, we saw in the magdalene laundry video the inhumanity they practiced, so it shouldn't really be a surprise - but fact remains that, in this day and age with globalism and information sharing, the internet etc - they're effectively still promoting this propaganda, not only getting away with it - but having it endorsed by national ministers....

But yeah, the likes of Moran and Sarah Benson, Barbara Condon and fact remains, Madigan - former minister for culture; Fitzgerald, MEP - they effectively back these myths as a means to suppress a practice that obviously impinges on their personal sensibilities also.


Again I think it highlights the hypocrisy of their endeavours - they condemn a practice for its supposed depravity - yet they'll stoop to far more despicable depths, for no other reason to protect their own sensibilities and/or vent their own emotional shortcomings.

And finally - they're unstable women, we get it, on some morbid level, it's to be expected - but where are the likes of Varadkar and Simon Harris when it comes to consolidating/passing policy change proposals?

They invested enough time and energy into homosexual marriage, which was again a fantastic step forward for a historically sexually oppressive nation, and huge blow to that oppressive mindset - so why aren't they anywhere to be found on a cultural and nationally emotive matter potentially far more explosive and far reaching?

Leo, Simon - "a safer, healthier, more inclusive environment for all" - do you stand by your comments?

OMM 0000

I think it comes down to a simple question:

What make prostitutes safer: making prostitution legal, clean and regulated, or making it illegal and pushing it underground?

It's a no brainer.

The fact these activists don't care about prostitutes' safety shows they shouldn't be listened to.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I know a woman who volunteers for one of the prostitution outreach organisations, and I remember she told me she has never come across any prostitutes who have been kidnapped/forced (genuinely trafficked) and she asked around and none of the prostitutes had ever met anyone.

This could very well be true, but the newspapers don't agree with you.
Or can you find an Irish Times article in the vein of "Siobhan, 23 - how I sold sex to pay for college".

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

This could very well be true, but the newspapers don't agree with you.
Or can you find an Irish Times article in the vein of "Siobhan, 23 - how I sold sex to pay for college".

The newspapers post Ruhama garbage as fact.

Ruhama are quite clever. They know they have a bad reputation, so they started giving their articles to the Immigrant Council, and then getting them to publish the articles as their own.

Also, Ruhama have stopped putting their name in their articles.

Basically you can't believe any of this **** as it's so often just a Ruhama press release. They're scum.

Go talk to some prostitutes. Learn the reality about the trade and how it's nothing like what Ruhama want you to believe.

biko

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

I believe it does happen of course. It is abhorrent and should be detected and the traffickers prosecuted. We have very little evidence to suggest it is widespread, and we have had zero prosecutions of sex trafficking despite Ruhama claiming they churn up hundreds of cases a year.

A Ruhama spokesperson in an article I read today (I think it may be linked on this thread) said there are women trafficked for sex work in every town and village in Ireland. That's complete horsesh*t, and they need to be challenged on it.

They are seriously not an organization to be trusted.

biko

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

‘Jenny’ has been working as a ‘sex worker’ for the past year and a half, having started working in Germany through an agency.
She told us that the original reason she began working in this industry was out of a desire to “try it out”.

Despite not wanting to continue working as a ‘sex worker’ once back in Ireland,
Jenny decided to get back into the industry due to mounting living costs and college expenses.

Jenny believes that if the government made changes such as more money for single parents or
free third level education women would be more inclined to leave the sex industry in favour of other work.

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

Last couple of paragraphs. Jenny is opposed to the Ruhama inspired law as it potentially criminalizes partners living with her.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Just an FYI on this, another "survey" published by some feminist group done in Amsterdams red light district, showed an insanely high percentage of "trafficking".

Come to find out that, their criteria for being "trafficked" is working without a visa. See, working for 6 months or less means you're tax exempt.

So naturally the gals want to milk that, they overstay their 6 months permit, net some extra bank - all is right with the world.

The click baiters spun the whole deal to make it look like 20% of window girls were working under the thumb of some vial male-madam - when the reality was nothing of the sort.

Simple tactics like these rouse public opposition and make for some popcorn headlines, gain favour, earn government funding, pay their salary etc; it's step 1.0.1. in the feminist/anti-sex work campaigner manual.

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

Ok, your opinion is very clear.
Do you even believe women are trafficked for prostitution?

And if Ireland allowed prostitution - would more women get trafficked here, or less?

Do I think women are kidnapped, smuggled into Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, that's obvious fantasy.

Do I think women are tricked into coming to Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, of course not.

Do I think weak or vulnerable women can be convinced to be prostitutes and manipulated to give part of their earnings to someone and not quit? Yes.

If prostitution was legalised it would not be possible to force someone to work in one of the regulated brothels. There will always be a black market (e.g. the women who can't qualify for a regulated brothel because of HIV or something) but I cannot think of any reason why more women would be trafficked.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Here's an Irish prostitute
http://collegetribune.ie/exclusive-ucd-student-sex-worker-speaks-to-the-college-tribune/

Why did you link an article that doesn't bolster your point of view at all?

lol

Although many women have partners outside of their work, these partners who “live off the avails” could be considered a ‘pimp’ under current law; this can also include escorts children. Also escorts working together from an apartment can be convicted of running a brothel. These are current laws which Jenny is against and wants to see changed.

biko

Marlowe Old Quadriplegic wrote: »

Why did you link an article that doesn't bolster your point of view at all?

lol

Because it's not about winning, it's about showing all sides of the debate.
In the end it's the opinion of Irish women that prostitute themselves that matter, not mine and not yours.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Do I think women are kidnapped, smuggled into Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, that's obvious fantasy.

Do I think women are tricked into coming to Ireland, locked in a room or chained to a wall while men pay to rape them? No, of course not.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

When it comes to third world countries, pffff - I mean they still believe in witchcraft down there.
Who know what those sick assholes get up to.

That article basically refers to child exploitation and pedophilia.
I had heard of multiple reports of child exploitation busts in Thailand, another third world country.
Several busts mentioned as to Dutch child exploitation rings.

.....

It's sick shit, but it ultimately doesn't pertain to "sex work" in the conventional sense - as in women selling their bodies to men, as it's legitimately licensed in some countries.

That is to say, upcoming review of this sex work law will almost certainly not factor in child exploitation.

No one is on the fence about that - it's wrong, no exceptions.

As far as I'm concerned, for pushers of that trade: no trial, no jury - straight to execution.

.....

But as a result of Fitzgeralds 2017 law, cops have been busting OAP's and pregnant escorts, and that's what this review is going to consider.

Not to mention, Nigerian criminal gangs is outside the jurisdiction of the Irish department of justice.


It's an interesting point for sure and something to bear in mind, but ultimately in no way bolsters an argument that supports the criminalization of legitimate, of-consenting-age, sex work.

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

Because it's not about winning, it's about showing all sides of the debate.
In the end it's the opinion of Irish women that prostitute themselves that matter, not mine and not yours.

In reality that couldn't be farther from the truth.

You think Josepha Madigan gives a damn what some gal half her age wants or does not want?

You think she's going to endorse a practice in society that could corrupt her son, who's almost about nightclub going age and could be tempted by these sins of the flesh? (despite the fact that her entire career was based around "sleeping her way to the top", a fact she gleefully trumpeted about herself in her bestselling novel?)

biko

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897094.html
Highly organised Nigerian gangs are earning “extremely high profits” from trafficking children into 12 European countries, including Ireland, for prostitution, according to the EU police agency.

The girls were often promised well-paid jobs. The gangs often involved family relatives to persuade the girls to move and in other cases use voodoo rituals.

It said victims are passed from trafficker to trafficker and are “frequently subjected to physical assaults” and subsequently sexually exploited.

I seriously doubt there are Irish men paying to rape little black children in Ireland.

I get the feeling you'll believe anything.

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

The stakeholders consulted in that report include Ruhama, Men's Development Network (Ruhama's finger wagging male wing), and the Immigrant Council of Ireland. All three of those exist cheek by jowl and have a crossover of personalities involved.


No sex workers consulted, and in fact sex workers have been actively excluded from input the whole way, the 'fallen women' that they are. Famously, Ruhama refused to share a platform at a seminar in UCC with a sex worker representative and said they would be a no-show unless she was dis-invited. Ruhama speak for no one but themselves, and particularly not sex workers.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I seriously doubt there are Irish men paying to rape little black children in Ireland.

I get the feeling you'll believe anything.

Why are there no sources in your posts, it's just you having feelings about this and that?

Pawwed Rig

biko wrote: »

Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

Sex workers, customers, public. Everyone really except the people who are disgusted by the notion of sex work (but are not actually affected by it).
Rarely do you see sex workers themselves be given a voice. Why do you think that is?
It is because it goes against the popular narrative that is why

OMM 0000

biko wrote: »

Why are there no sources in your posts, it's just you having feelings about this and that?

I get the feeling you just think men are horrible and want to believe they're rapists.

Ask yourself why no one has ever been arrested for raping a trafficked child in Ireland. Because it doesn't exist except in the fantasies of women (and weak men) who hate men.

I personally think criminalising the purchase but not the selling puts both men and women in danger.

Scenario: A man visits a woman whose ad he saw online. She seems upset and when he asks her whats is wrong she discloses she has been trafficked and wants to get out. She asks him to help her.

Does the man:

A) Report what he has heard to Gardai, thereby admitting he has purchased sex which is illegal and therefore implicating himself.

Go home and pretend it didn't happen.

When purchasing is illegal, I think most people would go with option B.

There are any number of variations of the above scenario where someone could be in danger and need help, but most people will go with Option B, to save themselves from getting in trouble.

Eric Cartman

https://www.thejournal.ie/accomodation-to-be-set-up-for-victims-of-sexual-exploitation-living-in-direct-provision-5171918-Aug2020/

For those saying the trafficking is a myth

OMM 0000

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/accomodation-to-be-set-up-for-victims-of-sexual-exploitation-living-in-direct-provision-5171918-Aug2020/

For those saying the trafficking is a myth

It's an article by Ruhama and the Immigrant Council. They make **** up.

Once you understand they consider all prostitution "forced" and all foreign born prostitutes "trafficked", their articles stop making sense.

So if a Spanish woman flies to Ireland, wants to be a prostitute, and likes it, according to Ruhama and the Immigrant Council she is being sexually exploited and trafficked.

Ruhama are literally run by the people who ran the Magdalene Laundries (seriously).

Yurt2

I actually can't believe they're farming out a direct provision centre (for all intents and purposes) to Ruhama. What a country.

OMM 0000

Yurt! wrote: »

I actually can't believe they're farming out a direct provision centre (for all intents and purposes) to Ruhama. What a country.

It is an absolute joke.

I've got to hand it to Ruhama though - they are good at what they do (lying, manipulating, fund raising, etc.)

bo0li5eumx12kp

biko wrote: »

The last report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon does not recommend a change in the law but you and others in this thread wants prostitution to be legal.
Who will your approach benefit most? The sellers, or the buyers?

That's actually kind of taking things out of context.

It more alludes to a need for law reform within the bill, specifically to target potential traffickers and focus less on harmless folk - which is what it has thus far been doing (low hanging fruit) - basically so they can get convictions of some kind.

Something which Sara Benson and Rachel Moran have explicitly publically pushed for (i.e. they want to punish, not reform - personal instabilities etc).


It's self defeating convention to date, as legit sex workers REQUIRE facilitation.

Only work around to this by logic is, for the state to license facilitators and make sure they don't overstep any moral boundaries.
i.e. keep them puppies on a leash.

Again an example of this is the all around fairly decent site Escort Ireland being state licensured and regulated, ensure they're prohibited from fraudulence which they currently engage in for additional profit (allowing one worker to run multiple plagiarized profiles, false advertising etc)


And no - my contention is not "to make prostitution legal" - my contention is to legitimize its practice entirely (as with any legit business and/or practice) and introduce it into society as a staple part of culture - something that would make the feminists and emotionally unstable'ists heads melt.

Pawwed Rig

If you took the church out of the debate the whole landscape would change.

biko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It is an absolute joke.

I've got to hand it to Ruhama though - they are good at what they do (lying, manipulating, fund raising, etc.)

I find it strange that you keep repeating this but have no proof.
Also, it's strange that an NGO that tries to protect women is getting so much stick from you. I'm not sure why.
Do you have a source that Ruhama is not looking out for women?