working from home

listermint

Mastroianni wrote: »

I'm not convicing nobody, I'm here to discuss, this is the purpose of the forum.
Did you read those post? This void the resignation and move out situation. There are agreementes between States, this is what I would to understand.
But maybe is better ask to my top management.

Il be interested to here how you get on...


It will no doubt allign with all the advice you've been given and you haven't suddenly located a hidden means to circumvent local tax laws.

Dick Turnip

It has been said already but I would heavily agree, even if you come to an arrangement with your employer where you can move back to your home country, they are highly unlikely to keep paying you your current salary and would likely mark it to local market rate.

Mastroianni

Dick Turnip wrote: »

It has been said already but I would heavily agree, even if you come to an arrangement with your employer where you can move back to your home country, they are highly unlikely to keep paying you your current salary and would likely mark it to local market rate.

this won't be an issue at all, to be honest.

listermint wrote: »

Il be interested to here how you get on...


It will no doubt allign with all the advice you've been given and you haven't suddenly located a hidden means to circumvent local tax laws.

I might be wrong but I feel some unpleasant vibes when you use the word "circumvent". I'm not circumventing anything, I want to follow the rules. The problem is to fully understand the rules and the options. When I said I want to avoid to pay the taxes?
If you have some grudge address it to those who are in social welfare for years and don't want to do anything except waiting on Thursday to be paid thanks by MY taxes and yours.

Thoie

I work for a large multinational, with offices in many countries. I've been working from home for years, and discussed the possibility of working from another country/location with HR.

The general feeling was that it might be OK for a few weeks in exceptional circumstances, but that if I was going to move somewhere and take out a one year lease, that wouldn't be OK, even if my boss was fine with it.

Due to tax issues, they wouldn't keep paying me from the Irish payroll, I'd have to be transferred to the Spanish payroll (for example). The group I work for may not have a cost center in the Spanish payroll, so that would have to be set up. Then there's the question of "headcount" - is there approval for my group to hire someone in that location (even if they're getting rid of me in my Irish location, it's not automatic). Then there's the new employment laws of the new country to take into account - would the new country consider me a "transfer" or a "new employee" - some countries might expect relocation fees to be paid.

All in all, it's a complete pain in the ass impacting at least 2 people from HR/payroll, if not more, just to satisfy a whim of mine, so no, I can't do it.

Within my team we have unofficially facilitated someone moving temporarily to somewhere with a different timezone for a family emergency, but it was obvious that it was going to be fairly short term. If it had gone on for any great length of time I'm not sure what would have happened.

qwerty13

I don’t work for Google / FB etc, but my impression through friends was that while the lockdown was new, they were ok with people WFH from another country - BUT as things became more long term, it was only contractors (who look after their own tax and ‘HR’ type stuff) who they were ok with WFH in a different country.

I’ve heard discussion of multi-national contract rates being decreased from Ireland rates to wherever the contractor is locating themselves. But I guess part of that is how valuable the contractor’s skills are.

Mastroianni

qwerty13 wrote: »

I don’t work for Google / FB etc, but my impression through friends was that while the lockdown was new, they were ok with people WFH from another country - BUT as things became more long term, it was only contractors (who look after their own tax and ‘HR’ type stuff) who they were ok with WFH in a different country.

I’ve heard discussion of multi-national contract rates being decreased from Ireland rates to wherever the contractor is locating themselves. But I guess part of that is how valuable the contractor’s skills are.

but if they gonna reduce my salary to make it more consistent with the country I'm living in, man, this is TOTALLY fine for me. I'd sign with blood.
The problem is that they want to keep us here, with the only consequences to force employees to break the law and runaway. Because at least the 70% of my colleagues are working from south Spain at this moment. So companies soon or later will face the issue of double taxation. I believe it would be easier to come to an agreement at different levels.

nibtrix

Mastroianni wrote: »

The problem is that they want to keep us here, with the only consequences to force employees to break the law and runaway.

Nobody is being forced to break the law and runaway, people could (a) stay in the country they have been contracted to work in or (b) leave the job if they choose not to stay.

Resorting to hyperbole to support your argument is not going to help you convince your employer to do something they don't want to.

Mastroianni

it's not an hyperbole, I'm not stretching an assumption in order to get the consequences that I would like to get, given other hypothesis. It's simply a matter of fact: nobody during this pandemic has figured out that want to live in Ireland. ALL the workforce that I work with (and due to my job I have to know all) do not want to stay here, either Irish or foreigners.
Companies have two options: fired everyone and hire from the scratch (good luck) or try to be flexible.
The law can be changed in order to comply with reality. I know that at that current state working from another country is not possible, but...

Mrs OBumble

Mastroianni wrote: »

it's not an hyperbole, I'm not stretching an assumption in order to get the consequences that I would like to get, given other hypothesis. It's simply a matter of fact: nobody duering this pandemic has figured out that want to live in Ireland. ALL the workforce that I work with (and due my job I have to know all) do not want to stay here, either Irish or foreigners.
Companies have two options: fired everyone and hire from the scratch (good luck) or try to be flexible.
The law can he changed in order to comply with reality. I know that at that current state working from another country is not possible, but...

It's the law in Spain ( or wherever) that would need to be changed. Irish law is not the problem.

Mastroianni

thanks for your replies, I believe I have everything I needed

username2013

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's the law in Spain ( or wherever) that would need to be changed. Irish law is not the problem.

Sorry, but how is it not the Irish law that is the issue?

As a poster stated yesterday:

"If your company has not office in your home country then you can't be transferred there and therefore have to be present and working in Ireland for the number of days set out by the revenue service of Ireland."

Would this not mean it's the Irish law/taxation system that needs to be updated or changed?

Dick Turnip

username2013 wrote: »

Sorry, but how is it not the Irish law that is the issue?

As a poster stated yesterday:

"If your company has not office in your home country then you can't be transferred there and therefore have to be present and working in Ireland for the number of days set out by the revenue service of Ireland."

Would this not mean it's the Irish law/taxation system that needs to be updated or changed?

Companies don't want to allow employees relocate abroad as they could potentially open themselves up to taxation, company & employment law issues in the country the employee moves to.

They hire a team of 20 in Dublin, but now 10 want to relocate to various countries and the company has to ensure they are compliant in each of these countries? I can see why a company would not acquiesce to these requests.

username2013

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Companies don't want to allow employees relocate abroad as they could potentially open themselves up to taxation, company & employment law issues in the country the employee moves to.

They hire a team of 20 in Dublin, but now 10 want to relocate to various countries and the company has to ensure they are compliant in each of these countries? I can see why a company would not acquiesce to these requests.

Yeah, I can understand that. I guess what I am getting at is it legal under Irish law? From reading the thread yesterday, the general consensus seemed to be
that it is not legal long term to work abroad as a FTE, unless the company has an office in that country.

The comment from Mrs OBumble ("It's the law in Spain ( or wherever) that would need to be changed. Irish law is not the problem." seemed to contradict this, but I may have misunderstood their point.

dennyk

username2013 wrote: »

Yeah, I can understand that. I guess what I am getting at is it legal under Irish law? From reading the thread yesterday, the general consensus seemed to be
that it is not legal long term to work abroad as a FTE, unless the company has an office in that country.

No, it's not generally illegal under Irish law for an Irish employer to have employees working in other countries. However, when they do, they are usually required to follow all of the relevant laws in the country where that worker is actually working, not the employment laws in Ireland. Most countries will at least require the employer to register some sort of official presence there and register for the tax system in that country so that taxes can be properly managed for that employee. Most countries also have employer-paid taxes and other costs (social benefit or insurance contributions, etc.) that must be paid on behalf of that employee by the employer, and those might be more expensive in some countries than the ones in Ireland.

Employers must also follow other employment laws in the country in question (e.g. laws governing employment contracts, working hours, leave and holidays, when and how employees can be terminated, etc.), which might be different from Irish law (possibly in the employee's favour). As a result, employers would usually require legal advice from a local solicitor and possibly a local accountant at a minimum to ensure they are fully in compliance with everything.

All of those things are complex and expensive to set up if the employer has no existing office in that country already, and most employers will not be interested in going to that much effort and expense just so one of their employees can go **** off to Spain indefinitely just because they feel like it. If there's no business purpose for an employee to relocate to another country, the employer has no incentive to agree to such a relocation unless they really can't do without that employee.

It is very unlikely that there would ever be any change to the laws in developed countries such that a foreign employer could employ workers in that country without following the local employment laws and paying local taxes, because if it did, half the employers in that country would instantly shut their local offices and reincorporate in some third-world location with few if any protections for employees, like Bangladesh or Florida, while keeping all their local employees on as "remote workers" and exploiting them to their hearts' content.

Mrs OBumble

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Companies don't want to allow employees relocate abroad as they could potentially open themselves up to taxation, company & employment law issues in the country the employee moves to.

They hire a team of 20 in Dublin, but now 10 want to relocate to various countries and the company has to ensure they are compliant in each of these countries? I can see why a company would not acquiesce to these requests.

Even worse, they have 50 different teams, and one person from each team (all under different managers) wants to work from France. Wham - they have to have a works council! Everyone working from France gets six weeks leave, three months consultation before a re-organisation, right to not be contacted outside of working hours .. etc. Everyone working in Ireland - doesn't. Nightmare stuff if you're trying to manage staff.

Mastroianni

with the news of the travel ban throughout this year I believe that the risk of employees runaway is serious...we will laugh!

Dick Turnip

When you say employee runaway, do you mean employees might quit their job and return to their home country?

Mastroianni

Dick Turnip wrote: »

When you say employee runaway, do you mean employees might quit their job and return to their home country?

yes this too

Dick Turnip

You're not prisoners, like the word "runaway" would suggest.

Some of the excuses your company gave might be a bit tenuous, like the insurance or potential for keeping equipment, but you can't blame them if they won't accommodate somebody to set up in a completely new country.

That is correct isn't it? Your company does not have an office or legal entity in your home country currently?

One option you could suggest is that you resign as an employee, move home, and they engage you as an external self-employed contractor doing the same role. You would lose all benefits of being a company employee though, your tax affairs would be your sole responsibility too.

Mastroianni

Are you a company lawyer or something similar? Can you stop to make assumptions and trying to find a hidden meaning in my words? I'm not blaming my company, actually I can't absolutely complain because, since this terrible pandemic has been going on, I haven't lost a day of payslip.
I understand all the legal aspects and I'm totally and absolutely flexible for any solutions, I could even accept to have my salary cut off if I'm able to go to another country since it seems that here will be locked down up to June and up to 3-5 years we gonna play with closing and reopening, breaking news read this morning.

At the moment I'm writing there are people that I know, Irish and foreigners, who are working in Spain, Portugal, Italy, even South America.
They shouldn't be there? Yes, they should not.
Companies have to take alternative tax solution? Yes, they should.

Dick Turnip

Mastroianni wrote: »

Are you a company lawyer or something similar? Can you stop to make assumptions and trying to find a hidden meaning in my words? I'm not blaming my company

I'm not making any assumptions. I was only taking your words as I see them, and you saying "they want to keep us here, with the only consequences to force employees to break the law and runaway." - this to me, sounds like you're blaming the company. There are other options, you can stay in Ireland where you are hired or quit and go wherever you want. You're not forced to break any law or runaway anywhere.

Mastroianni wrote: »

Companies have to take alternative tax solution? Yes, they should.

By this I assume you mean, the company accommodate your wish to move to the country you choose. Of course, it's possible they could. That honestly all depends how irreplaceable you or your colleagues are. If you or the company feel they may well struggle to replace you then they might just agree to it. If you think that's true, go make that case to your management.

I said in my last post you could suggest to resign as an employee and offer to work as a contractor - would you be flexible to that? You would lose all rights & benefits of being an employee though.

Mastroianni

It's not a personal wish or a whim, it's called see the reality and understand how can be faced. I don't know how to explain this further.
I work in a recruitment company and things that just a few months ago, during this pandemic, was unimaginable, now are the new standards.
Moreover, many candidates are refusing positions and jobs because they don't like the idea to be stranded here.
I repeat, this is happening not only to me. The employment is changing, whether we like it or not.

About offering myself a contractor, well this is something that I could discuss with my managers, no problem.
Actually you gave me a great idea.

dennyk

From the point of view of an Irish employer, the situation is really very simple: allowing an employee to relocate to a foreign country and continue working for them as an employee creates additional costs and/or the risk of legal liabilities for the employer, therefore the employer will be disinclined to allow it in most cases. It's not personal, it's simply a business decision.

If, as you mentioned, the refusal to allow employees to become digital nomads in that way eventually makes it more difficult for an employer to hire qualified candidates, then they might choose to re-evaluate that policy eventually, but in the near term it's not likely; companies don't generally opt to take on more costs and add more operational complexity unless they have no other choice or there is a very clear benefit to them (and to their bottom line) from doing so, and "maybe some good employees might like to relocate to other countries" probably isn't going to cut it under the current circumstances where there are also plenty of qualified candidates in Ireland itself looking for work due to the current economic downturn.

The contractor approach is definitely an option you could look into with your employer. Just keep in mind that your employer would still need to follow the laws which differentiate independent contractors from employees in your destination country, so becoming an independent contractor might involve a change in the relationship between you and your employer, and possibly in your job duties as well, that they wouldn't be willing to make. In particular, independent contractors are generally subject to far less control, oversight, and direction from their clients than an employee would be from their employer. If your client retains you as an independent contractor, but then attempts to dictate or monitor specific aspects of your work such as work processes or working hours, that might make you an employee under the law in your country of residence, which would leave your "employer" at risk of fines and other legal sanctions. If your role would be suitable for a bona fide independent contractor, however, that would generally make it possible for your (former) employer to hire you as such while you are residing in a foreign country without having to go through the legal and tax hassles necessary to actually employ someone in that country, so it might be an option your employer would be more willing to consider.