Turkey's aggression towards Greece

dxhound2005

Zebra3 wrote: »

If Turkey attacks Greece and NATO members stand by and let Greece be defeated, what's the point of NATO?

The idea of Turkey just strolling into Athens.... :rolleyes:

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

biko

biko wrote: »

https://www.handelsblatt.com/english/handelsblatt-explains-why-german-turks-are-numerous-divided-and-bitter/23568860.html

https://www.trtworld.com/europe/there-are-4-million-turks-in-germany-how-have-they-integrated--6360


I doubt all 4 million would do something but you only need a small number to organise under the Grey Wolves. Do you think no Turks in Germany will act if Turkey goes to war with Greece, considering the support for German-Turkish Erdogan is so big?

You're reaching. You weren't expecting to be challenged on the mistruth you slipped in to the discussion.

BTW TRTWorld is Turkish Pravda

Yurt2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

I don't think Erdogan will be willing to put that theory to the test, and he'd be right.

Erdogan has lost both the West and Russia, he's running out of playpals and don't think he doesn't know NATO command (and his own military for that matter) are aware of it. He'll play nice with Greece if he likes having his head attached to his body.

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

You're reaching. You weren't expecting to be challenged on the mistruth you slipped in to the discussion.

Is that you Tayyip?
Merhaba! Yorumlarınız için kaynak sağlayacak mısınız?

fly_agaric

biko wrote: »

I doubt all 4 million would do something but you only need a small number to organise under the Grey Wolves. Do you think no Turks in Germany will act if Turkey goes to war with Greece, considering the support for German-Turkish Erdogan is so big?

From your link:

More than a third of the people in Germany who have a Turkish background, about 1.5 million, remain Turkish citizens and are thus eligible to vote in Turkish elections.

I remember reading that about 1/2 German Turks who can do so do not bother their arse to vote in Turkey's elections at all.

https://www.dw.com/en/half-of-turks-in-germany-voted-in-2018-election/a-44306175

Am sure a lot of them do have patriotic feeling for Turkey + would be very, very conflicted if Turkey attacked an EU member state (which would mean Germany taking Greece's side, even if it didn't include military support), but the ones that vote + worship Erdogan are a noisy minority it seems.

They can riot and they can cause trouble on the streets when whipped up (which no doubt they would be if Turkey goes to war with Greece) but I'd be surprised if they could do more than that.

biko

biko wrote: »

Is that you Tayyip?
Merhaba!

I'll take that as your capitulation on this particular front.

The Unbearables

Nothing will happen. Just a bollox acting the bollox.

Zebra3

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

Big part of NATO is ensuring money is diverted from the likes of education and health to war.

Military hardware needs to get used up to justify the expense.

America and Britain love their wars. Can't live without them.

Add in the fact that a good few people would love to hand Erdoğan his arse.

Could also force them out of Cyprus.

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

Big part of NATO is ensuring money is diverted from the likes of education and health to war.

Military hardware needs to get used up to justify the expense.

America and Britain love their wars. Can't live without them.

Add in the fact that a good few people would love to hand Erdoğan his arse.

Could also force them out of Cyprus.

There are very few countries which don't spend more on the taxpayer's money on education and health than their defence budgets. Actually, outside of maybe North Korea, I can't think of any, let alone any NATO countries.

As for justification of expense, perhaps you are unaware of just how damned expensive a conflict is. The costs of equipment acquisition suddenly get put into perspective.

I seem to recall that on average, one Greek or Turkish pilot is killed every years in 'mock' dogfights, normally by running into the ground or the sea. There's a bit of sabre rattling, usually by Turkey every few years on top of that which leads to increased alerts and deployments. The geography doesn't seem to encourage use of the large Turkish army.

dere34

Turkey will never join the EU.

igCorcaigh

Might be a useful source to follow.

https://twitter.com/g_mastropavlos/status/1292691784661950464?s=19

Your Face

biko wrote: »

It's been a while since Xerxes

More recently 1830 when they beat out the Ottomans.
Or WW2 when they halted the Italian army and forced the Germans to invade. This led to a massive resistance movement which led to more and more Nazi resources being deployed to Greece.

Reading up on the history of a subject before using it to push a reoccurring agenda can make a poster seem less obvious.

biko

Hopefully it won't come to blows.
Turkey is clearly the aggressor here and I doubt they can spin it any other way, even though I'm sure there will be attempts to do so.

RandomName2

dere34 wrote: »

Turkey will never join the EU.

Yes, and the fact that Erdogan accepts that makes him more dangerous. Were the Turkish economy in better state he'd see no reason at all to not just do as he wanted.

Erdogan has managed to piss off literally every country in Europe and the Middle East. That is pretty impressive.

Okay, with the small exceptions of Azerbaijan, Qatar, and 'North Cyprus'.

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

As for justification of expense, perhaps you are unaware of just how damned expensive a conflict is. The costs of equipment acquisition suddenly get put into perspective.

Oh no, I'm fully aware.

I'm also fully aware of the cost of human lives, but for many of those blood thirsty cheerleaders of American and British violence, as so many of the victims are brown skinned people in poor countries, they don't matter.

fly_agaric

Zebra3 wrote: »

Oh no, I'm fully aware.

I'm also fully aware of the cost of human lives, but for many of those blood thirsty cheerleaders of American and British violence, as so many of the victims are brown skinned people in poor countries, they don't matter.

My thought is, if it happens with Trump/new look "MAGA" isolationist Republican party at the helm the US will do nothing. Does that comfort you (?) - it should not IMO.

Their committment to NATO is doubtful when there's nothing really concrete "in it" for the US in my laymans/person who keeps an eye on the news judgement.
They might tell Turkey/Greece to stop fighting perhaps, that is it I think.

taegukgi

Do you realize you are all looking at this problem from the wrong angle?
There are sovereignty issues between Turkey and Greece in sea areas of Mediterranean.Even before Erdogan it was a big issue and almost Greece and Turkey was going in to war like 25 years ago for some rocks in the Aegean Sea. So it seems Turkey want to use coastal state's right to explore and exploit the natural resources of its continental shelf.Therefore there are unclaimed areas in Meditarrean.
to claim rights on those areas Turkey had some agreements with Libyan, Italian and Malta governments.In the mean time Greeece had same agreements wıth Egypt and Israel..
so All about natural resources again..
and so this problem already has long history and it is bigger problem than governments in Greece and Turkey.

fly_agaric

taegukgi wrote: »

Do you realize you are all looking at this problem from the wrong angle?

Your post does not really explain why the "tension" occurs now.
Is it not bound up with the current Turkish leader (edit & politics there)? He may need external enemies because he's having trouble now at home. Maybe also the favourable international situation for him.

Even though he criticised the EU unfairly, Biko is actually right that it is quite weak in such situiations because it is divided about strategic (non trade related) issues and they are mainly handled at member state level. As above I think the US will do nothing at all about any Turkish aggression either. Trump sort of admires Erdogan. IMO Trump thinks democracy (negotiation/multilaterlism generally) is for "weakings" and "failures" and the real strong countries are the likes of Russia and China bossed by "hard men" like himself who thrash out "deals" (and maybe turn to aggression when that doesn't work). That can't be good for this situation either.

taegukgi

Already Greece brought soldiers and built military bases on the islands which should be in statue of no mans land according to international law (Ouchy treaty - treaty of Lausanne ) and those military bases which was build on islands are just couple mile away from Turkish coast.Even you can swim from Turkish coasts.(for that reason It was immigrants s favorite location for escaping to Greece)
Therefore Turkey was accusing Greece for violating the treaty of Lausanne by keeping troops on the islands of the Eastern Aegean Sea for long time before this last events happened..
So I think already Greece was pushing their limits for long time against Turkey.
But somehow Erdogan s government rejected to see those realities what was happening in Aegean sea for the sake of the joining European Union dream ,even opposition political parties was warning Erdoğan about it.Remember Annan Plan which was refused by Greeks in Cyprus.But Erdogan was so enthusiastic about it when it was planned and offered by United Nations, he was even ready to give up from Cyprus So he is very easy person about give aways when it comes his political future.
I am all agree about erdogans adventurous personality and his delusions.
İf there is something bigger than governments in Turkey and Greece, İt is their Militaries. any government which is elected in Greece or Turkey always have some concern about Military reactions.So it is something about Their army peoples proud also.

BTW We should give Greece its share in this rising tension despite years of struggling with the economic crisis still Greece was spending the most part of budget on their army..

biko

Erdogan is trying to pull EU itself into the mix.
Pretty rich from a nation that illegally occupies not only Cyprus but also swaths of Syria.

Turkey's Erdogan accuses EU of using Greece as 'bait'

Efforts to 'descend on the riches of the Mediterranean' are an example of 'modern-day colonialism', says Turkish leader.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip accused European nations of using Greece as "bait" in the Mediterranean Sea confrontation while belittling Athens' military might on Tuesday.

Erdogan, who has threatened Greece with military action, described Turkey's activities in the eastern Mediterranean as the "pursuit of [its] rights and justice" and denounced what he said were Greek efforts to "imprison" Turkey to a small region surrounding its coast.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/turkey-extends-gas-exploration-eastern-mediterranean-200901061858394.html