2020-21 UEFA Champions League

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gimli2112 wrote: »

I don't understand the hate for Pep. He's a fantastic manager and comes across as someone with a deep passion, almost fanatical love for the game. He also seems genuine and forthright when he loses. He didn't win a one off final and it's easy to question his tactics,which granted seemed wrong but the players simply didn't perform and Chelsea (who by the way are one of the most powerful teams in world football) played well. It was a great game for genuine neutrals, I imagine.

I'm a neutral (albeit I was siding with Chelsea) and it was a great game to watch, particularly the first half.

I'm not too sure about genuine when he loses considering he has said he a) did what was best for the team in terms of selection and b) that they played a good final. I think both of them statements are lies.

If the final was played early on in the season when City were in their groove and Chelsea were struggling the result would have been a comfortable City win. It was the managers who made the differences tonight, in a good way for Chelsea and to their detriment for City. Pep lost the game before it started.

When you think he was brought in specifically to win the Champions League for City you have to class his tenure as a failure.

He may well win it eventually and all will be forgiven and forgotten.

McFly85

gimli2112 wrote: »

I don't understand the hate for Pep. He's a fantastic manager and comes across as someone with a deep passion, almost fanatical love for the game. He also seems genuine and forthright when he loses. He didn't win a one off final and it's easy to question his tactics,which granted seemed wrong but the players simply didn't perform and Chelsea (who by the way are one of the most powerful teams in world football) played well. It was a great game for genuine neutrals, I imagine.

Anyone who thinks he hasn't improved City are simply wrong, it's not even an opinion, you're just wrong. Arguably the greatest manager of all time only one 2 of these despite being in charge of the strongest side in UK football for the guts of 30 years. A mixture of bad luck, bad rules and just it's hard to win. Ancelotti 0-3 up against a poor Liverpool side in 2005 with a decent Milan team didn't win it, didn't make him a bad manager.
ok that last point was just to bring up 2005 again.

City are going to be a juggernaut for years. Personally I'll be quite happy when he leaves them.

It’s a recurring theme with Pep, though. In big European matches he has a tendency to set his team up in a way they’re not used to playing for reasons unknown. 1 game in 60 where neither Rodri or Fernandinho started. It’s a bizarre tactical choice that was called out by many pre match, so saying it’s bad luck in a one off final is simplifying it a bit I think.

And while he definitely improved City, he spent a fortune doing it. Minimum expectation is domestic success, but that will be said of any City manager for the foreseeable. City will be a juggernaut because of City’s resources, same as Munich before it. Until he can deliver a CL I think it’s fair criticism. 10 years since he’s won one now, had he’s had 2 of the richest teams in the world to try and win it with.

breezy1985

Trekker09 wrote: »

But he will. Tuchel didn't win it last year did he? Sometimes a team has to lose one to win one.

We have being hearing he will for 10 years now. What makes you so sure next year he will. His record now has a lot more years where he messed up than ones where he won

Sandor Clegane

gimli2112 wrote: »

I don't understand the hate for Pep. He's a fantastic manager and comes across as someone with a deep passion, almost fanatical love for the game. He also seems genuine and forthright when he loses. He didn't win a one off final and it's easy to question his tactics,which granted seemed wrong but the players simply didn't perform and Chelsea (who by the way are one of the most powerful teams in world football) played well. It was a great game for genuine neutrals, I imagine.

Anyone who thinks he hasn't improved City are simply wrong, it's not even an opinion, you're just wrong. Arguably the greatest manager of all time only one 2 of these despite being in charge of the strongest side in UK football for the guts of 30 years. A mixture of bad luck, bad rules and just it's hard to win. Ancelotti 0-3 up against a poor Liverpool side in 2005 with a decent Milan team didn't win it, didn't make him a bad manager.
ok that last point was just to bring up 2005 again.

City are going to be a juggernaut for years. Personally I'll be quite happy when he leaves them.

To me pep seems to like being quirky just for the sake of being quirky.

It backfired on him yesterday, he could of just set up how they were used to but he just couldn't resist doing something weird for no reason, maybe he can't resist trying to be clever I don't no, but he should take a lot of heat for how they set up because it was all wrong and they never played well.

He's not happy unless he's doing something random or weird, maybe it's to look clever or unique I don't no.

breezy1985

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

To me pep seems to like being quirky just for the sake of being quirky.

It backfired on him yesterday, he could of just set up how they were used to but he just couldn't resist doing something weird for no reason, maybe he can't resist trying to be clever I don't no, but he should take a lot of heat for how they set up because it was all wrong and they never played well.

He's not happy unless he's doing something random or weird, maybe it's to look clever or unique I don't no.

Its not being quirky just for the sake of it it's done so that he can live up to his "brand" as the philosopher genius. Its no good if Pep wins and it's not all about Pep being the genius

Quazzie

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn’t even in the top 5 best managers in the current premier league.

So the manager that has won 3 out the last 4 premier leagues, including a record breaking points haul isn't even in the top 5 managers in the league. :rolleyes:

Yer talking through your hoop there.

LuckyLloyd

It's so blatantly obvious that Pep lost the game due to a mad selection that left their high line completely open that I don't know how anyone could argue something to the contrary with a straight face.

I think his record speaks for itself. He wins domestically when he has a massive resource disparity in his favour and he won a couple of European Cups with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi et al available to him.

He's not the manager you want to eke out a result as an underdog or even in a fair contest. As a consequence, the idea that he's one of the "greatest" managers in the game is nonsense.

breezy1985

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious that Pep lost the game due to a mad selection that left their high line completely open that I don't know how anyone could argue something to the contrary with a straight face.

I think his record speaks for itself. He wins domestically when he has a massive resource disparity in his favour and he won a couple of European Cups with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi et al available to him.

A Barcelona team that had already won the Champions League only 2 seasons before he did.

The one place Pep might be the greatest ever is his ability to market himself

Quazzie

Quazzie wrote: »

So the manager that has won 3 out the last 4 premier leagues, including a record breaking points haul isn't even in the top 5 managers in the league. :rolleyes:

Yer talking through your hoop there.

You’re showing a lack of knowledge and understanding there.

Not sure if you’re being serious though so I’ll let it go.

Trekker09

breezy1985 wrote: »

We have being hearing he will for 10 years now. What makes you so sure next year he will. His record now has a lot more years where he messed up than ones where he won

I didn't say he'd win it next year, just that he will win one with City. it could well be next year, but it will be soon.

adox

That’s two European finals this season that were lost by the manager.

KevRossi

rob316

City dominated domestically before him and will after him. He was brought in to make them the best team in Europe and he has failed. Even worse for him his league rivals Klopp and Tuchel have won a European cup each in his time.

He's a brilliant coach but not a great. His domestic success is heavily weighted in his favour before a ball is kicked.

breezy1985

rob316 wrote: »

City dominated domestically before him and will after him. He was brought in to make them the best team in Europe and he has failed. Even worse for him his league rivals Klopp and Tuchel have won a European cup each in his time.

He's a brilliant coach but not a great. His domestic success is heavily weighted in his favour before a ball is kicked.

Could never see him take on Newcastle or Everton like other CL winning managers have.

All the fawning of Pep the last few weeks because he might win a 3rd CL and with 2 different clubs and even worse was how he was made out to be the first manager ever smart and brave enough to play without a striker as if it's something he invented. Sorry but Carlo has done all that already and didn't need to waffle on about his philosophy while doing it

Fitz*

Pep is a fantastic manager and is a league winning machine. I think he has won the league he has managed in something like 9 out of 12 seasons in his managerial career. Crazy high figured. Of course he always has massive financial backing too, which does stack the deck in his favour and has to be noted. It is a bit chicken & egg though, as all the top clubs want him as their manager too.

But you can't ignore the fact that his team selections and tactics have cost City dearly in the knockout stages of the CL.

In 17/18 Man City were all conquering domestically but then in Europe, he played Gundogan RW against Liverpool out of nowhere, and also move Laporte out to LB. The original example of trying to be too clever with his team shape. Lost the game 3-0 and lost the tie there.

In 18/19 the year of the mad game with Spurs where they conceded a few goals early on in the game. Didn't start a recognised DM in that game either with Fernandinho dropped.

In 19/20, he tried to be too clever against Lyon and made a big tactical shift to 3 CBs. That was not s regular team shape or set up at the time.

And then in 20/21, he chooses to not play any DM for some unknown reason, bring back in Sterling to start the game after being dropped the last month or so and Cancelo gets to game time after being the main man for a while. The Foden/KDB false 9 you can understand but there was just extra messing that there was no need for.

It's not just Man City he does it at either, remember that hammering that Bayern got at the hands of Barca where Pep went 3 at the back and go man V man up against Messi, Suarez & Neymar. Lost 3-0 and had to rectify in it in the 2nd leg where they won, but the damage had been done.

Bleating Lamb

Pep is well able to dominate domestically given that often one player alone that he puts out against the teams in the lower half of the Premier League cost more than the entire 11 he opposes.And you needn’t be even considered seeing the likes of Sterling or De Bruyne as the City player!.....could be likes of Walker or Mendy. City’s second 11 could comfortably finish in top 6 in the league.
Pep tried to be too clever last night and he made Tuchels team talk before the game very easy to deliver.’Look lads Pep obviously doesn’t rate us so let’s go out and show him’

KevRossi

I think he was spooked by Chelsea beating City in the league and Cup twice in the past 6 weeks. He overthought it. City had beaten Chelsea in 7 of the previous 9 meetings. I honestly think if the had thought about the match as an ordinary PL match, City would have won.

Thing is, at this stage, he can win all the PL's, FA Cups, League Cups he wants; the big one is the Champions League and like PSG, it dominates their season. Each season that ends in failure just puts more pressure on the next one.

It will be interesting to see where they go from now. It's one thing to lose a last of 16, or a QF, but losing a final can damage their confidence. They'll spend very big this summer, they'll have no issues with money or a loss of income from COVID, unlike other teams. Guardiola has a contract until 2023, I doubt he'll prolong it.

breezy1985

Fitz* wrote: »

Pep is a fantastic manager and is a league winning machine. I think he has won the league he has managed in something like 9 out of 12 seasons in his managerial career. Crazy high figured. Of course he always has massive financial backing too, which does stack the deck in his favour and has to be noted. It is a bit chicken & egg though, as all the top clubs want him as their manager too.

Barcas league record before Pep won the league in 05 and 06, with Pep 09/10/11 and after Pep won 13/15/16/18/19

Munich: BP 03/05/06/08/10/13 WP 14/15/16 AP 17/18/19/20/21

City: BP 12 and 14 WP 18/19/21

It shows a pretty stunning league record but also shows that each of these clubs would be regular league champions without him but probably not as solid.
It also doesn't show that the signing of Pep is done as a symbol of more wider ranging forward change at the club so its hard to judge where the club would be without him

patmac

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1398753313953300492

Deleted User wrote: »

Zarah is some woman.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Zarah Sultana - Born and reared in Birmingham maybe Liverpool are her second team? :rolleyes:

breezy1985 wrote: »

MP for Coventry too so she has plenty of teams who are not Liverpool to support

People who support mainly English clubs on an Irish forum, giving out about some English politician not supporting her home town club? That’s the internet for ya.

breezy1985

patmac wrote: »

People who support mainly English clubs on an Irish forum, giving out about some English politician not supporting her home town club? That’s the internet for ya.

As much as I find the fanatical devotion some Irish people have to English clubs odd it's really not the same thing

One is picking a foreign club to support so you have a team to watch on TV playing at the higher levels of the game.
The other is supporting a team that are in direct competition to your home club.

A more fair comparison of Irish sports fans would be if loads of Limerick people supported Cork hurling as their first team which just does not happen

~Rebel~

breezy1985 wrote: »

As much as I find the fanatical devotion some Irish people have to English clubs odd it's really not the same thing

One is picking a foreign club to support so you have a team to watch on TV playing at the higher levels of the game.
The other is supporting a team that are in direct competition to your home club.

A more fair comparison of Irish sports fans would be if loads of Limerick people supported Cork hurling as their first team which just does not happen

That’s not a fairer comparison at all.., it’s probably just as skewed the other way. The Limerick team is filled with Limerick players, all from Limerick, representing Limerick in a far more fundamental way than any Prem/Champ team represents its location.

Like, do you know the lady? Do you know why she ended up following Liverpool? I don’t, and it doesn’t really seem a reasonable thing to complain about...

The Golden Miller

Two poor teams

breezy1985

~Rebel~ wrote: »

That’s not a fairer comparison at all.., it’s probably just as skewed the other way. The Limerick team is filled with Limerick players, all from Limerick, representing Limerick in a far more fundamental way than any Prem/Champ team represents its location.

Like, do you know the lady? Do you know why she ended up following Liverpool? I don’t, and it doesn’t really seem a reasonable thing to complain about...

That's true too. Neither are perfect comparisons.

I don't know her but she kinda brought this on herself. Even if she was the Liverpool born MP for Liverpool the tweet was crass and petty

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

Its not being quirky just for the sake of it it's done so that he can live up to his "brand" as the philosopher genius. Its no good if Pep wins and it's not all about Pep being the genius

Jesus, if there is one coach out there who can bring out the rabid craziness in people it’s Pep Guardiola.

And, for what it’s worth I agree he should have played Rodri and not doing so may have cost him the game.

Shanotheslayer

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's true too. Neither are perfect comparisons.

I don't know her but she kinda brought this on herself. Even if she was the Liverpool born MP for Liverpool the tweet was crass and petty

It's literally a Meme tweet from Kanye/Taylor Swift and I assume posted in jest

Crass - showing no intelligence or sensitivity. The tweet is literally none of that.

breezy1985

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

It's literally a Meme tweet from Kanye/Taylor Swift and I assume posted in jest

Crass - showing no intelligence or sensitivity. The tweet is literally none of that.

Are we talking about the same thing ?
The one where she gloats about Liverpool having 6 CL trophies.

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

Jesus, if there is one coach out there who can bring out the rabid craziness in people it’s Pep Guardiola.

And, for what it’s worth I agree he should have played Rodri and not doing so may have cost him the game.

Well I don't think he is a terrible manager so there must be another reason for his constant changing and his ego is the most plausible one I've seen.

Even some of his fans in the media like Wilson and Lowe say he is very aware of and concerned about his place in history

Shanotheslayer

breezy1985 wrote: »

Are we talking about the same thing ?
The one where she gloats about Liverpool having 6 CL trophies.

Yo,
@ChelseaFC
, I'm really happy for you. I'mma let you finish, but
@LFC
had one of the best finals of all time and also

Is literally the Meme of what Kanye did Taylor swift just in football terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvaakT52RjQ

breezy1985

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Yo,
@ChelseaFC
, I'm really happy for you. I'mma let you finish, but
@LFC
had one of the best finals of all time and also

Is literally the Meme of what Kanye did Taylor swift just in football terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvaakT52RjQ

I'm not really up to date on my Taylor/Kanye memes so hadn't heard of this before. I'm sure plenty of other soccer fans aren't either so you can maybe see how it comes across as a bitter out of context dig at Chelsea if you hadn't heard of it before

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

Well I don't think he is a terrible manager so there must be another reason for his constant changing and his ego is the most plausible one I've seen.

Even some of his fans in the media like Wilson and Lowe say he is very aware of and concerned about his place in history

So your theory on last night is that he sacrificed his teams chances of winning a first Champions League, to make sure that if City won the CL, it would be because of his tactical innovations.

That’s honestly the one you’re going with? It couldn’t just be that he has a tendency to overthink things?

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

So your theory on last night is that he sacrificed his teams chances of winning a first Champions League, to make sure that if City won the CL, it would be because of his tactical innovations.

That’s honestly the one you’re going with? It couldn’t just be that he has a tendency to overthink things?

Well it’s a difficult one. Leaving aside any biases or dislikes, there is a real question to be asked as to why he felt this was the way to go. If we assume he’s a technically competent and analytical tactician, which we obviously should, then you have to wonder why he deliberately made a clearly sub optimal decision without any injury / suspensions forcing it upon him. “Overthinking” could cover and include the idea that he wanted to win in a “different” way or take a gamble in a historic game that would be pored over and written about for decades.

And that gives him credit. Because if we accept that he simply made a mistake, it really calls into question his tactical acumen imo. Particularly given the way in which they have lost in the European Cup during his tenure at City.

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

So your theory on last night is that he sacrificed his teams chances of winning a first Champions League, to make sure that if City won the CL, it would be because of his tactical innovations.

That’s honestly the one you’re going with? It couldn’t just be that he has a tendency to overthink things?

Don't make out like this is just me thinking it but yes I think his ego gets the better of him and he has to think of some convoluted scheme for everyone to talk about on the big day
The other option is yes he over thinks it which makes his not a great manager if it's true as he keeps bottling big games this way.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well it’s a difficult one. Leaving aside any biases or dislikes, there is a real question to be asked as to why he felt this was the way to go. If we assume he’s a technically competent and analytical tactician, which we obviously should, then you have to wonder why he deliberately made a clearly sub optimal decision without any injury / suspensions forcing it upon him. “Overthinking” could cover and include the idea that he wanted to win in a “different” way or take a gamble in a historic game that would be pored over and written about for decades.

And that gives him credit. Because if we accept that he simply made a mistake, it really calls into question his tactical acumen imo. Particularly given the way in which they have lost in the European Cup during his tenure at City.

I think he thought he was making the right decision, but got it wrong. That has to be the most plausible explanation surely?

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

Don't make out like this is just me thinking it but yes I think his ego gets the better of him and he has to think of some convoluted scheme for everyone to talk about on the big day
The other option yes is he over thinks it which makes his not a great manager if it's true he keeps bottling big games.

I’m not making out like it’s just you saying it. I literally said that Pep Guardiola has a tendency to make otherwise reasonable people talk crazy.

So to rewind on what you originally said, you think Pep knew that not playing Rodri (or even Fernandinho) would lessen their chances of winning, but his ego decided that if they were going to win it, they’d have to win it in spectacular fashion. That’s what you believe?

I genuinely don’t believe I’m even twisting your words there, that’s basically what you said.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

I think he thought he was making the right decision, but got it wrong. That has to be the most plausible explanation surely?

Well that would really call into question his tactical acumen imo

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

I’m not making out like it’s just you saying it. I literally said that Pep Guardiola has a tendency to make otherwise reasonable people talk crazy.

So to rewind on what you originally said, you think Pep knew that not playing Rodri (or even Fernandinho) would lessen their chances of winning, but his ego decided that if they were going to win it, they’d have to win it in spectacular fashion. That’s what you believe?

I genuinely don’t believe I’m even twisting your words there, that’s basically what you said.

I think he probably thought he would be favorites win it either way and took the gamble so that everyone after could write fawning articles about his genius tactical innovation.

As I said the other option is the man thought that was the best option despite me and every other couch potato on the planet seeing it was wrong. If that's the case he is a poor manager who doesn't understand tactics and I find that harder to believe

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well that would really call into question his tactical acumen imo

I think if we go through all the best managers we can look at games where they did things that really didn't seem to make sense. Pep is a great tactical coach but clearly is not immune to that (the fact that it has happened in 2 consecutive CL eliminations makes it feel even more pronounced).


I think there is 2 negating elements to it that apply to all elite coaches alike. The first is the fact that knockout football is particularly unforgiving, in that you have that one off-night and your season is over, no chance for redemption. That is the narrative until that competition resumes again.


The other is that there are probably also times where coaches make decisions that were actually the right calls, but appear nonsensical to the average Joe Soap like myself. And variance dictates that even when coaches do that, their players can still perform poorly and they can still lose games which would make Mr Joe Soap believe his initial call was the right one.


I don't really believe last night was one of those nights, and my opinion is that he just got it wrong, but I do also have to accept that he clearly knows more than I do aswell, so maybe I'm wrong.

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

I think he probably thought he would be favorites win it either way and took the gamble so that everyone after could write fawning articles about his genius tactical innovation.

As I said the other option is the man thought that was the best option despite me and every other couch potato on the planet seeing it was wrong. If that's the case he is a poor manager who doesn't understand tactics and I find that harder to believe

So, to clarify, yes, you believe that Pep knew that doing something else was probably the better option and picked a different team anyway?

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

I think if we go through all the best managers we can look at games where they did things that really didn't seem to make sense. Pep is a great tactical coach but clearly is not immune to that (the fact that it has happened in 2 consecutive CL eliminations makes it feel even more pronounced).


I think there is 2 negating elements to it that apply to all elite coaches alike. The first is the fact that knockout football is particularly unforgiving, in that you have that one off-night and your season is over, no chance for redemption. That is the narrative until that competition resumes again.


The other is that there are probably also times where coaches make decisions that were actually the right calls, but appear nonsensical to the average Joe Soap like myself. And variance dictates that even when coaches do that, their players can still perform poorly and they can still lose games which would make Mr Joe Soap believe his initial call was the right one.


I don't really believe last night was one of those nights, and my opinion is that he just got it wrong, but I do also have to accept that he clearly knows more than I do aswell, so maybe I'm wrong.

But why does he feel the need to make such drastic changes at such key moments. If it is just what you say then I think another manager with the same players who doesn't F around with the team will win a lot more which calls into question how good a manager he is

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

But why does he feel the need to make such drastic changes at such key moments. If it is just what you say then I think another manager with the same players who doesn't F around with the team will win a lot more which calls into question how good a manager he is

Apparently, he does it so that people will think he is even more of a genius if they win the game in spite of the crazy decision.

Pep is a quality manager. Yes, he spends a lot, but he's still a top manager. This season aside he has made 95+ points the total to aim for to win the league.

Personally I was happy to see him fail again in Europe, but recognise he is still superb.

Put it on this way, I'll be happy when he goes as whoever City bring it won't have them getting near 100 points as the norm.

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

Apparently, he does it so that people will think he is even more of a genius if they win the game in spite of the crazy decision.

Why are you trying to turn this in circles. We know that's my theory I have been honest about it.

Your theory is that he messes up on big occasions which I am saying makes him a poor tactician if you are right. Do you think he is a brilliant manager who keeps messing up the big days ?

CSF

breezy1985 wrote: »

Why are you trying to turn this in circles. We know that's my theory I have been honest about it.

Your theory is that he messes up on big occasions which I am saying makes him a poor tactician if you are right. Do you think he is a brilliant manager who keeps messing up the big days ?

I'm generally avoiding this getting into an actual serious football conversation given how it started.

breezy1985

6 wrote: »

Pep is a quality manager. Yes, he spends a lot, but he's still a top manager. This season aside he has made 95+ points the total to aim for to win the league.

Personally I was happy to see him fail again in Europe, but recognise he is still superb.

Put it on this way, I'll be happy when he goes as whoever City bring it won't have them getting near 100 points as the norm.

His league history is excellent and there are few around who will give them that kind of consistency. Maybe Conte off the top of my head but not many others

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

I think if we go through all the best managers we can look at games where they did things that really didn't seem to make sense. Pep is a great tactical coach but clearly is not immune to that (the fact that it has happened in 2 consecutive CL eliminations makes it feel even more pronounced).


I think there is 2 negating elements to it that apply to all elite coaches alike. The first is the fact that knockout football is particularly unforgiving, in that you have that one off-night and your season is over, no chance for redemption. That is the narrative until that competition resumes again.


The other is that there are probably also times where coaches make decisions that were actually the right calls, but appear nonsensical to the average Joe Soap like myself. And variance dictates that even when coaches do that, their players can still perform poorly and they can still lose games which would make Mr Joe Soap believe his initial call was the right one.


I don't really believe last night was one of those nights, and my opinion is that he just got it wrong, but I do also have to accept that he clearly knows more than I do aswell, so maybe I'm wrong.

Some journalist is no doubt formulating the ‘Pep’s selection was correct, here’s why’ article and ready to reel in the clicks it will generate. I suppose we’ll need to see the case because I haven’t read or heard a single take in support or his selection and tactical setup as of yet.

And sure - we are not qualified to discuss these things.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Some journalist is no doubt formulating the ‘Pep’s selection was correct, here’s why’ article and ready to reel in the clicks it will generate. I suppose we’ll need to see the case because I haven’t read or heard a single take in support or his selection and tactical setup as of yet.

And sure - we are not qualified to discuss these things.

Like I said, I agree. I think he got it wrong last night. But that the ‘Pep keeps getting it wrong tactically’ narrative might have more than a smidgen of confirmation bias attached to it.

Over the last 24 hours we’ll have read a lot of ‘Pep only coaches the best teams with big budgets’ rhetoric as if a) those teams aren’t picking him ahead of the other coaches out there for a reason and b) it isn’t completely normal that the best coaches (and players) end up gravitating towards the best teams/footballing projects.

McFly85

6 wrote: »

Pep is a quality manager. Yes, he spends a lot, but he's still a top manager. This season aside he has made 95+ points the total to aim for to win the league.

Personally I was happy to see him fail again in Europe, but recognise he is still superb.

Put it on this way, I'll be happy when he goes as whoever City bring it won't have them getting near 100 points as the norm.

Agree he’s a top manager, but think City are more likely to win the CL after he’s gone.

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

Like I said, I agree. I think he got it wrong last night. But that the ‘Pep keeps getting it wrong tactically’ narrative might have more than a smidgen of confirmation bias attached to it.

Over the last 24 hours we’ll have read a lot of ‘Pep only coaches the best teams with big budgets’ rhetoric as if a) those teams aren’t picking him ahead of the other coaches out there for a reason and b) it isn’t completely normal that the best coaches (and players) end up gravitating towards the best teams/footballing projects.

Totally agree about the second half there - Jose and Rafa didn't take the Spurs/Roma/Newcastle jobs because they wanted a challenge, they took them because those are the jobs they could get at that time in their careers. Pep works the big jobs because at this stage of his career he's a big job manager. That obviously brings it's own pressures and challenges, and if he stops winning leagues at some point he'll end up at a Spurs or Roma as well.

On the first half of your post though... I'd just love to hear him explain it. Like, i'd love to have had an "all of nothing" camera in the dressing room when he explained what was supposed to happen. As you mentioned yourself in the Managers thread, he's been playing more conservatively all season, keeping things tight and doing just enough to get enough points on the board to win the league - and then here last night he throws all that conservatism out the window and effectively plays a back 4 and 6 attacking midfielders. I'd to look at the teamsheet twice when it came out.

As you say, I do think we're probably all predisposed to look for the "Pep overthink" moment in the CL every year - but up till now there hasn't been one. You looked at each teamsheet and each tactical setup and think, yeah that looks good, they've a great chance of winning with that. And all along, they did. And then last night he makes a change so fundamentally weird that pretty much everyone spots it and goes "hang on a sec..." before a ball has been kicked... and then it plays out pretty much exactly like us armchair watchers would expect, with Chelsea slicing through an empty City midfield 3 or 4 times in the first half for great chances.

I'm honestly just totally baffled by it. It just seemed like he'd done the hard work all season, and just needed to get out of his own way...

breezy1985

CSF wrote: »

Like I said, I agree. I think he got it wrong last night. But that the ‘Pep keeps getting it wrong tactically’ narrative might have more than a smidgen of confirmation bias attached to it.

Over the last 24 hours we’ll have read a lot of ‘Pep only coaches the best teams with big budgets’ rhetoric as if a) those teams aren’t picking him ahead of the other coaches out there for a reason and b) it isn’t completely normal that the best coaches (and players) end up gravitating towards the best teams/footballing projects.

I think part of the problem for people and certainly me is that he is constantly touted by as the greatest ever so ends up getting judged at that bar. I also think this has driven his ego to do what he does

If the narrative around him was that he was a good manager and one of the top of his generation rather than the greatest ever I would not be so harsh on a man who has not only not won a CL in 10 years but has made some seriously strange decisions and taken the odd battering too

CSF

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Totally agree about the second half there - Jose and Rafa didn't take the Spurs/Roma/Newcastle jobs because they wanted a challenge, they took them because those are the jobs they could get at that time in their careers. Pep works the big jobs because at this stage of his career he's a big job manager. That obviously brings it's own pressures and challenges, and if he stops winning leagues at some point he'll end up at a Spurs or Roma as well.

On the first half of your post though... I'd just love to hear him explain it. Like, i'd love to have had an "all of nothing" camera in the dressing room when he explained what was supposed to happen. As you mentioned yourself in the Managers thread, he's been playing more conservatively all season, keeping things tight and doing just enough to get enough points on the board to win the league - and then here last night he throws all that conservatism out the window and effectively plays a back 4 and 6 attacking midfielders. I'd to look at the teamsheet twice when it came out.

As you say, I do think we're probably all predisposed to look for the "Pep overthink" moment in the CL every year - but up till now there hasn't been one. You looked at each teamsheet and each tactical setup and think, yeah that looks good, they've a great chance of winning with that. And all along, they did. And then last night he makes a change so fundamentally weird that pretty much everyone spots it and goes "hang on a sec..." before a ball has been kicked... and then it plays out pretty much exactly like us armchair watchers would expect, with Chelsea slicing through an empty City midfield 3 or 4 times in the first half for great chances.

I'm honestly just totally baffled by it. It just seemed like he'd done the hard work all season, and just needed to get out of his own way...

Yeah, I basically agree with all that. Look, I’m sure there was a logic to it, I’m sure on another night City score that long ball Ederson played through to Sterling and go on to win with authority, but I still can’t disagree with anyone who says it was the wrong decision and a case of overly trying to play to the opposition rather than his own team’s qualities.