Covid 19 Part XXI-27,908 in ROI (1,777 deaths) 6,647 in NI (559 deaths)(22/08)Read OP

Plumbthedepths

Piehead wrote: »

The country is out of control. Need a full National enforced lockdown for 1 month. Seal border. Arrest and jail all for non compliance

Paddy green was slightly more subtle.

lee_baby_simms

Piehead wrote: »

The country is out of control. Need a full National enforced lockdown for 1 month. Seal border. Arrest and jail all for non compliance

IF YOU TOLERATE THIS YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT.

Sweet.Science

It's better to use the UK as the large of large number gives a better trend .

The number of hospitalised people keeps falling . This backs up scientific studies in Singapore that the strain is less potent than it was a few months ago

Yet in this country there is mass hysteria over 17 people in the whole country in hospital with this virus

It just shows that the big elephant in the room is mental health and anxiety

lee_baby_simms

partyguinness wrote: »

In my 13 years living in England over the last few months for the first time ever I am actually gald to be over here looking at how obedient some people in Ireland are acting.

Either that or ****ting their pants about the 'unknowns'. Perspective and common sense seems to have completely vanished.

We’ve lost the plot alright.

Plumbthedepths

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

This is so messed up.

The country is turning on itself for people attending a fecking dinner.

Get me out of here.

Fun fact the Judge in question that attended the Golf dinner was the Attorney General between 2017/ 2020 who gave legal advice on drafting the restrictions he broke.
Sometimes it's best to step back and say 'nah I ain't defending this ****'.

FintanMcluskey

partyguinness wrote: »

In my 13 years living in England over the last few months for the first time ever I am actually gald to be over here looking at how obedient some people in Ireland are acting.

Either that or ****ting their pants about the 'unknowns'. Perspective and common sense seems to have completely vanished.

Seen something this morning about an 11 year old with Covid fear. Something of negligible risk to any child.

We have failed as a nation.

BorneTobyWilde

There really are no restrictions in Ireland currently, most people wear a mask, but that's about it.
Maybe a one week TOTAL lock down for country would have an affect,

ninebeanrows

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Fun fact the Judge in question that attended the Golf dinner was the Attorney General between 2017/ 2020 who gave legal advice on drafting the restrictions he broke.
Sometimes it's best to step back and say 'nah I ain't defending this ****'.

I'm definitely not defending this shambles of a government. The optics of this is awful but this sort of event should be allowed. NEPHET are totally out of control.

This country has lost its mind on COVID.

FintanMcluskey

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Maybe a one week TOTAL lock down for country would have an affect,

What's a total lockdown I wonder.

Often heard it said on here and I'm curious about it, and the lack of understanding of the mechanics of society that some possess

DevilsHaircut

Zero Covid gaining ground across the water.

https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1296711894934458368

Irish Times

Rage over Berlin bar is a distraction from what Ireland must do
Caveat: Contrast the controversy here with the calm acceptance of a pool party in China

Mark Paul

The pool party and music festival at Maya Beach water park in Wuhan, China last Saturday, which was attended by 15,000 people. Photograph: STR/AFP via Getty Images
The pool party and music festival at Maya Beach water park in Wuhan, China last Saturday, which was attended by 15,000 people. Photograph: STR/AFP via Getty Images
While Ireland blew its head gasket this week over a boisterous brunch party attended by 51 young people in Berlin/D2 bar in Dublin, in Wuhan they held a pool party for 15,000.

Wuhan is the Chinese city where it is accepted that the new coronavirus was spawned. It was Wuhan residents who first experienced what is now known ubiquitously as “lockdown” from January to March. The Chinese take the word a bit more literally than we do in the West, however. Some Wuhan residents were welded into their apartment blocks to prevent them leaving.

This week, thousands of young people from the city of 11 million people crowded into the Wuhan Maya Beach water park for a pool party and club music festival. The pictures were like something from a different age: young people wedged together without fear, sliding off inflatables into swimming pools, screaming and dancing to a live DJ. It looked heavenly.

It feels slightly surreal, over on this side of the world, to experience a sense of optimism due to a Chinese pool and club night
There was no intervention by the local authorities, who wouldn’t hesitate to step in if there was any official disapproval. Wuhan has had no new locally transmitted cases of the virus since the middle of May. Chinese state-controlled media rebuffed the ripples of international criticism over the party by dismissing it as “sour grapes”. Clearly, an official decision was taken within China’s autocracy to let Wuhan’s young people breathe for a bit.

When Wuhan’s traumatised residents emerged blinking into the daylight from their horrific lockdown in March – just as we were settling down to begin ours – they surely felt the same fear and trepidation that has recently stalked our attempts at economic and social reopening. After a month, they had an inevitable and modest resurgence of the virus, as we have. But the city that pioneered the modern “lockdown” technique did not repeat it.

Hunting
Instead, the Chinese decided to go hunting for the virus rather than sitting back and waiting for it to get them again. They tested close to 10 million people in late May – almost the entire city of Wuhan. These were proper diagnostic tests to find the infected in real time, and not simpler, historical antibody tests. It took just 19 days to complete. They found a few hundred asymptomatic cases, which were isolated and dealt with, with no further spread. The city returned to virtually normal life, and this week had its pool party.

It feels slightly surreal, over on this side of the world, to experience a sense of optimism due to a Chinese pool and club night. But it shows that, even in the pandemic’s ground zero, where people were left to die alone in corridors at the height of the crisis, life’s vim cannot be extinguished and it can even come rushing back if public authorities do their jobs properly.

The scenes last weekend at restaurateur and publican Jay Bourke’s Berlin bar in Dublin ought to be seen through the proper prism: the anxiety of others. The footage shared widely on social media of a staff member standing on a bar and pouring whiskey into a handful of customers’ mouths was insulting to other businesses and citizens, especially with virus numbers creeping up again.

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The imagery it evoked was debauched, almost pornographic in its symbolism, and I would wager that this contributed to it going viral
It stoked fear among older people who are nervous that death will stalk them again due to the negligence of others. To have a reasonable fear of death must be very emotionally debilitating, and something that those of us who are much younger naturally struggle to grasp. Our brains are not wired that way. Not yet.

Social media, predictably, blew up over the Berlin bar footage. Politicians and doctors and commentators all weighed in. But with community transmission still rare in Dublin, rather than a virus super-spreading event, it is much more likely that the Berlin bar scenes are really more of a media event.

All the ingredients were there: raucous footage to entertain and provoke rage; a simple narrative (stupid, selfish young people) that was easy for the rest of us to contrast with our own perceived sense of responsibility, thus giving us personal validation; and a recognisable villain – Bourke.

The barman-on-the-bar footage launched the Berlin story on social media. There was something arresting about the scenes of a man standing over punters – some of them young women – and pouring liquid into their open mouths as they closed their eyes and tried to catch the drops. The imagery it evoked was debauched, almost pornographic in its symbolism, and I would wager that this contributed to it going viral.

The fact that the background music was from a band called The Killers added to the sense of abandon.

But it was Bourke’s involvement as proprietor that further fuelled the story in traditional media. In a small, Irish media bubble kind of way, Bourke is box-office. He has been involved in many scrapes and controversies over the years, which were slavishly reported by newspaper journalists, including yours truly. He is articulate and even a little bit vain, which draws media towards him. And he is undeniably complex and interesting: he has a talent for trendy bar concepts, and an equal gift for attracting mither.

Holding a “baked brunch” event in the middle of a pandemic was a stupid thing for a businessman to do. It was a disservice to others in the industry who are pushing for greater leeway to trade. But let’s not blow it up out of all proportion. Much of the reaction is just a symptom of our own fears and anxiety, because nobody knows where the virus is hiding.

So how do we combat that? We can step back onto a carousel of mini-lockdowns, recurring restrictions that wax and wane with infection rates, and a whack-a-mole dance with outbreaks, at least until there are effective treatments and vaccines widely available.

Perhaps it is easier to join a pile-on of young people in a bar than it is to summon the resources and the will to invest in mass testing and tracing
Another option is to do what the Chinese did in Wuhan, the cradle of this killer virus, and hunt it down.

If we know where the virus is hiding – meat factories, direct provision centres, certain communities – it ought to be possible to root it out. Our medical and political establishment seems ambivalent about the efficacy of mass testing. But remember, it wasn’t so long ago that they were ambivalent about wearing masks.

Many respected scientists, such as Trinity’s Tomás Ryan, and doctors, such as the Mater hospital’s Jack Lambert, have argued repeatedly that the State’s baffling inability or unwillingness to build world-class, proactive testing and tracing infrastructure is holding us back.

I would like to hear NPHET and the Government explain properly why Ireland isn’t getting ahead by building a mass testing programme. Perhaps it is easier to join a pile-on of young people in a bar than it is to summon the resources and the will to invest in mass testing and tracing.

And if they say it won’t work, it is reasonable to retort that they can do it abroad, and it worked there. We are often told that we must ape the strict restrictions of other successful countries. That logic should also apply to testing and tracing.

They did it in Iceland. They did it in Wuhan. Why not Ireland?

Good article in Irish Times what we need to do to get out of this mire.

Plumbthedepths

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

I'm definitely not defending this shambles of a government. The optics of this is awful but this sort of event should be allowed. NEPHET are totally out of control.

This country has lost its mind on COVID.

Not having a go at you but some of the morons that attended that event were party to the implementation of new restrictions. The restrictions they broke were old. Although it appears Hogan broke one of the newer ones.
As for Nphet I disagree with alot of the restrictions they have put forward. The point is though if the people we elect place restrictions on our lives in my opinion they better subject themselves to them aswell.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good article in Irish Times what we need to do to get out of this mire.

Still banging the zero Covid drum I see.

MOR316

Currently sat in a bar, having a beer, after a wonderful lunch, listening to The Spice Girls through my headphones for some unknown reason. My God, they had some bangers...In more ways than one... Ahem...

Anyways, live life as best as you can with all this. Easy to get bogged down by Gandhi's flip flops who are currently in Government but, pointless. They'll still be there and we'll be the one's dancing to their tune and paying taxes towards them.

seamus

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

NEPHET are totally out of control.

NPHET don't decide on the restrictions, they merely make recommendations.

If Meehaul was sufficiently convinced by NPHET's advice, but you haven't been sufficiently convinced by Meehaul's explanation, then that's Meehaul's fault.

Never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who think that NPHET have been placed in charge and are in control.

timsey tiger

timsey tiger wrote: »

This isn't addressing my point, but however.

Currently Re > 1.

We need kids in school, this will increase contacts, so most likely increase Re. But, a necessary risk to keep the country going.

What are we doing to offset this?

The end of holiday season and the consequential reduction in movement around the country

partyguinness

Total lockdowns or whatever just has everyone going around in a continuous loop- up and down up and down.

We just have to take some precautions, accept it, live with it and move on.

C19 in invisible and we cannot see it so why is everyone running to the hills and acting like it's some sort of roaming wildcat?

I am going to pub tonight like I have done for the past few Fridays. No drama.

Sweet.Science

Sweet.Science wrote: »

It's better to use the UK as the large of large number gives a better trend .

The number of hospitalised people keeps falling . This backs up scientific studies in Singapore that the strain is less potent than it was a few months ago

Yet in this country there is mass hysteria over 17 people in the whole country in hospital with this virus

It just shows that the big elephant in the room is mental health and anxiety

Would be great if true. Too early to be definitive on this, but I am hopeful. :pac: Have you a link to Singapore study?

titan18

Deleted User wrote: »

Good article in Irish Times what we need to do to get out of this mire.

People would have freaked the hell out if we locked down like Wuhan did though. We had an easy lockdown in comparison to that

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

People would have freaked the hell out if we locked down like Wuhan did though. We had an easy lockdown in comparison to that

Our lockdown brought cases down to 7 cases a day in June. It's what we have done afterwards or haven't done. The have not improved testing at all. It's like they just went off their holidays and kept fingers crossed all would disappear

Irish Steve

Sweet.Science wrote: »

It's better to use the UK as the large of large number gives a better trend .

The number of hospitalised people keeps falling . This backs up scientific studies in Singapore that the strain is less potent than it was a few months ago

Yet in this country there is mass hysteria over 17 people in the whole country in hospital with this virus

It just shows that the big elephant in the room is mental health and anxiety

No, the big elephant in the room is keyboard warriors who don't know what they are talking about.

Todays hospital cases are the people who caught the virus at least 3 or 4 weeks ago, in some cases even longer, and we already know that the numbers then were very low in comparison to the current figures, and the distribution is at present in a lower age goup than it was.

It would be helpful if the system gave us a some extra figures, the number admitted and the number discharged from hospital and the ICU on a daily basis, it would be a lot more helpful than the number of infections from day 1, as we know that the vast majority of these have already recovered.

A few people, in line with the percentages we already know about have not made an appropriate recovery, so they are hospitalised, but the massive surge in numbers of cases in the last couple of weeks isn't even going to show up in the hospitals for another week or two, and that's why the medical professionals who do know what they are talking about are trying (and clearly failing if your attitude is anything to go by) to get people to change their behaviour while it still can influence the total number of active cases, and to avoid the older age groups becoming infected as a result of a wider spread of the disease.

titan18

Deleted User wrote: »

Our lockdown brought cases down to 7 cases a day in June. It's what we have done afterwards or haven't done. The have not improved testing at all. It's like they just went off their holidays and kept fingers crossed all would disappear

It was easy in comparison to Wuhan tbf. We also don't have the same amount of resources to throw at it as China do tbf.

Don't disagree with you on we haven't improved at all, but Wuhan and China is a bad comparison imo

Irish Steve

Irish Steve wrote: »

No, the big elephant in the room is keyboard warriors who don't know what they are talking about.

Todays hospital cases are the people who caught the virus at least 3 or 4 weeks ago, in some cases even longer, and we already know that the numbers then were very low in comparison to the current figures, and the distribution is at present in a lower age goup than it was.

It would be helpful if the system gave us a some extra figures, the number admitted and the number discharged from hospital and the ICU on a daily basis, it would be a lot more helpful than the number of infections from day 1, as we know that the vast majority of these have already recovered.

A few people, in line with the percentages we already know about have not made an appropriate recovery, so they are hospitalised, but the massive surge in numbers of cases in the last couple of weeks isn't even going to show up in the hospitals for another week or two, and that's why the medical professionals who do know what they are talking about are trying (and clearly failing if your attitude is anything to go by) to get people to change their behaviour while it still can influence the total number of active cases, and to avoid the older age groups becoming infected as a result of a wider spread of the disease.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

10 to 12 days is the mean time to hospitalisation not 3 to 4 weeks, and for most countries , in the initial surge, deaths spiked within 10 days of cases spiking

tobefrank321

The low hospital numbers is directly related to the low age of those recently infected.

At the risk of banging the mild flu drum, for the vast majority under the age of 50, this is a mild flu. In fact most people have had far worse flus.

If we keep the age of those infected down, we shouldn't have a huge problem.

In the "first wave" it was the elderly and those in hospital who were most exposed. They are better protected now.

Renjit

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

I've a simpler way to explain it. x % of irish people will get cancer. In order to keep that number stable all adults must stop smoking, drinking, eat a vegan diet and use sunscreen. All children must do the opposite. Numbers remain steady

Cancer is not making a run from one head to another, unlike contagious disease. The logic is simple. Next time a cancer infected person transmits to you, you can update it here in reply to my comment, genius.

caveat emptor

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Still banging the zero Covid drum I see.

Still banging the whataboutery. I won't mention the two wives.

wadacrack

Great listen. We have got too comfortable with this virus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzHueYqZDA

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Still banging the zero Covid drum I see.

You said we can't close/control airports (fair enough to a point) .

Testing/tracing is another tool which we are very average at. Nothing to stop us being excellent at this. Nobody to blame but ourselves on this one. All within our control.

The reason we are stuck in these restrictions is because
we do all these things average. Every time cases/r rate rises above 1 its because our testing tracing is not very good and then everyone in our country loses out. The risk takers and the risk averse.

Plumbthedepths

caveat emptor wrote: »

Still banging the whataboutery. I won't mention the two wives.

Good to see you are no longer posting fake tweets. Keep it up. ;-)

caveat emptor

not a newstalk fan by any stretch considering their patron and pat Kenny using every opportunity to plug his investment property that went tits up in the k club.
This is accurate about how people feel though.

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/1296773125741457408?s=20

DevilsHaircut

Deleted User wrote: »

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

10 to 12 days is the mean time to hospitalisation not 3 to 4 weeks, and for most countries , in the initial surge, deaths spiked within 10 days of cases spiking

Spain went from 156 to 864 hospital admissions per week between 10 July and 12 August.

It takes longer than '10-12 days' (2 months?) for an increase in cases to lead to an increase in hospitalisations.

The die has already been cast in Ireland.



https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1294619858638905344

https://twitter.com/prieto_alhambra/status/1294893299501850624

tobefrank321

With the release of serological data for Ireland we can reassess the severity of covid 19.

About 60,000 in the 12-69 age group were infected. Probably about 40,000 more in the 69+ age group.

So about 100,000 infected.

3,387 have been hospitalised or 3.4%.

442 ended up in ICU or about 0.4%

And 1775 have died or about 1.75%

The 1.75% figure seems high as a cfr though based on experiences in other countries. But the vast majority who died were elderly which may skew the figures.

For the 8000 healthcare workers, 8 died, indicating 0.1% cfr for working age.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You said we can't close/control airports (fair enough to a point) .

Testing/tracing is another tool which we are very average at. Nothing to stop us being excellent at this. Nobody to blame but ourselves on this one. All within our control.

The reason we are stuck in these restrictions is because
we do all these things average. Every time cases/r rate rises above 1 its because our testing tracing is not very good and then everyone in our country loses out. The risk takers and the risk averse.

Actually I have said we are part of the largest trading block in the world and share a porous land border with another jurisdiction. We are an open economy and our lifeblood is exports.
I don't disagree on tracking and tracing this is something we were assured of in May. The failure at the time was responsible for some of the more restrictive measures being left in place longer than we were originally assured of.

caveat emptor

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Good to see you are no longer posting fake tweets. Keep it up. ;-)

Sorry I did seem to mention the two wives. That's illegal here.
More power to you though, if I were taoiseach I'd let you have a whole hareem.

I think we need to get with the 21st century. I'm so glad you are outspoken on the issue. You shouldn't live a hidden life.

The fake tweet stated that Stephen Donnelly doesn't understand what the R number is. That has proven accurate.

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1296191943760908292?s=20

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

It was easy in comparison to Wuhan tbf. We also don't have the same amount of resources to throw at it as China do tbf.

Don't disagree with you on we haven't improved at all, but Wuhan and China is a bad comparison imo

We have got to aim higher. This milaise is hurting our society and economy. No point us comparing to countries doing similar or worse. Learn from the best. Seems we are relying on Europe to get us out of this to an extent. Doesn't inspire confidence.

JP Liz V1

US2 wrote: »

Apologies, I was wrong about Hogan not isolating on return from Belgium . He isolated and is staying in Kildare! Locked down Kildare

Hogan should resign or be sacked

Gerry Hatrick

Expect the government to start downplaying how serious this virus is now in the next week now they've been caught out all hands down. PR people will be operating 24/7

MickeyLeari

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Hogan should resign or be sacked

Who would sack him?

stephenjmcd

Listening to this at the moment. People who's family died, people who couldn't go to funerals, can't see family in nursing homes.

Its absolutely heartbreaking

https://twitter.com/ShaneBeattyNews/status/1296793573820694530?s=19

Plumbthedepths

caveat emptor wrote: »

Sorry I did seem to mention the two wives. That's illegal here.
More power to you though, if I were taoiseach I'd let you have a whole hareem.

I think we need to get with the 21st century. I'm so glad you are outspoken on the issue. You shouldn't live a hidden life.

The fake tweet stated that Stephen Donnelly doesn't understand what the R number is. That has proven accurate.

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1296191943760908292?s=20

I really don't care that you posted fake stuff and that you were called out and reported for it. I only mention it every time you stalk my comments with the same jibe.
You do however spend a lot of time sniping at others . Not sure why, but if it makes you feel better have at it.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

You said we can't close/control airports (fair enough to a point) .

Testing/tracing is another tool which we are very average at. Nothing to stop us being excellent at this. Nobody to blame but ourselves on this one. All within our control.

The reason we are stuck in these restrictions is because
we do all these things average. Every time cases/r rate rises above 1 its because our testing tracing is not very good and then everyone in our country loses out. The risk takers and the risk averse.

We came very close to zero covid and travel quarantines make a huge difference.

But it sounds like a few people returned to Ireland, went into their workplace without bothering to quarantine and we went back to square one.

90% of people will respect travel quarantines but you will always get the 10% and their employers who won't respect them.

Sunrise.Sunset

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Perhaps she'd be better trying to sort this herself, you've gone above and beyond now at this stage setting up a boards account to complain about the GP and about her working arrangements. Take a break and let her take some responsibility!

There's no social distancing in her job. She raised concerns to her employer. The small children had colds and cough and she didn't feel comfortable continuing to work until they were tested with results back. She was pretty much nearly mocked - 'they are just little children with little colds and there's nothing to be afraid of' was what was said to her. The hse guidelines states no close contacts with a person displaying signs of sickness and her employer dismissed this. She has no PPE to protect herself. They are have regular gatherings in their home and the new house/home guidelines are being broken. My friend is working in a private/home environment. Is it unreasonable to expect some public health guidelines to be followed and for risk to be minimised in her job?
Will she be able to get dole if she leaves?

Sweet.Science

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

10 to 12 days is the mean time to hospitalisation not 3 to 4 weeks, and for most countries , in the initial surge, deaths spiked within 10 days of cases spiking

There is no point in engaging with these people. We are beneath them . They are smarter than us. They can sit at home locked away working watching their money roll in . Not like us peasants

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

We came very close to zero covid and travel quarantines make a huge difference.

But it sounds like a few people returned to Ireland went into their workplace without bothering to quarantine and we went back to square one.

90% of people will respect travel quarantines but you will always get the 10% and their employers who won't respect them.

Very frustrating. We did the hard lockdown and it's been squandered to an extent in a few short months.

JP Liz V1

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Who would sack him?

I'm wondering that, he is EU commissioner :o the head on him he won't go on his own, brace it out, his communications skills always bad

Ger Roe

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Who would sack him?

EU President, Ms. Ursula Von Der Leyen.

If you want to drop her a line, the email address is :

ec-president-vdl@ec.europa.eu

podgeandrodge

caveat emptor wrote: »

Sorry I did seem to mention the two wives. That's illegal here.
More power to you though, if I were taoiseach I'd let you have a whole hareem.

I think we need to get with the 21st century. I'm so glad you are outspoken on the issue. You shouldn't live a hidden life.

The fake tweet stated that Stephen Donnelly doesn't understand what the R number is. That has proven accurate.

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1296191943760908292?s=20

Perhaps one of them is an ex-wife and he has since re-married. I know people that refer to their ex-wives as their wives still. Perhaps he didn't feel the need to go into detail with you!

ACitizenErased

94 positive swabs last 24hrs from 13,080 tests - a record testing figure

podgeandrodge

Sunrise.Sunset wrote: »

There's no social distancing in her job. She raised concerns to her employer. The small children had colds and cough and she didn't feel comfortable continuing to work until they were tested with results back. She was pretty much nearly mocked - 'they are just little children with little colds and there's nothing to be afraid of' was what was said to her. The hse guidelines states no close contacts with a person displaying signs of sickness and her employer dismissed this. She has no PPE to protect herself. They are have regular gatherings in their home and the new house/home guidelines are being broken. My friend is working in a private/home environment. Is it unreasonable to expect some public health guidelines to be followed and for risk to be minimised in her job?
Will she be able to get dole if she leaves?

Why is she asking you to find out when you don't have a clue anymore than her. Ask her to make formal enquiries, you're not being fair on her giving her hope like this!