Covid 19 Part XXI-27,908 in ROI (1,777 deaths) 6,647 in NI (559 deaths)(22/08)Read OP

Scuid Mhór

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Democracy was never at such risk IMO

In our democracy, restrictions can be placed on rights if such restrictions are deemed to be in the public interest. The situation which you have quoted is perfectly democratic in the circumstances.

Getting very tired of people who have no idea how our legal and governance systems work, denouncing any limits on restrictions as anti-democratic. Democracy goes beyond the individual.

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

So you have a conversation and he said he was just a rookie outta Templemore?
They have a templemore rookie badge?

I suggest you look at the recommendations from NPHET and the restrictions the government impose. At this stage they are way apart.
Before with the previous government, the Covid subcommittee would meet and thrash out details. Make sure there's no confusion (or limit it).
The last set, there was no subcommittee and there in lie the problem with all the confusion. Absolutely nothing to do with NPHET, all down to the ministers that signed off on it.

And exactly the reason LV was furious for not having any discussion about anything the past few weeks - just MM making the decision and damn everyone else

FintanMcluskey

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

In our democracy, restrictions can be placed on rights if such restrictions are deemed to be in the public interest. The situation which you have quoted is perfectly democratic in the circumstances.

Getting very tired of people who have no idea how our legal and governance systems work, denouncing any limits on restrictions as anti-democratic. Democracy goes beyond the individual.

I heard before that if people are convinced something is bad enough, they will beg for protection at all costs

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

There is a whole world of difference between criminal activity and a private house party

How many people have been infected from house parties?
How many have been infected from meat factories - which the government consistently avoid talking about

I'll agree with the fact factories are the main issue and not house parties.
However, if they introduce a law stating no more than 6 guests in a private residence (house party) and someone breaks that.... that's criminal activity.
Breaking a law is criminal activity.... in the eyes of the courts, a law is a law. So that world of difference is lost and they are in the same basket as drug dealers etc....
This isn't about locking up people at a house party. It's just giving the guards power to enter a private residence when they know there's a crime being committed. They could have a 1 cent fine, and no prison time, it's enough to break up a party and the ****ers who wont leave can be arrested and spend time in a cell, brought before a judge and fined 1 cent.
That's enough to stop the party.

Goldengirl

fritzelly wrote: »

80's were the best for music

(don't pm if you cannot receive PM's back )

Yes sorted that now . Was on the tablet so couldn't reset .

speckle

mandrake04 wrote: »

I think if you asked most people who have parents or Grandparents in their 60s or 70s should the government do what it takes to protect those people the best they can ...

It’s just not good enough.

It is not up to the parents to decide for the grandparents what the restrictions should be to protect them... they can chose on their own what they would prefer... I understand their feelings but love can become a cage and we cage enough wise elders in nursing homes and in general in society already by not listening to them or respecting their wishes even if it is different to ours.

Scuid Mhór

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I heard before that if people are convinced something is bad enough, they will beg for protection at all costs

I've been obsessed with COVID since it broke out as a mysterious viral pneumonia in December. I predicted a global pandemic in January and started making relevant preparations here almost three months before we had our lockdown. I have been following the virus - news related to it as well as our ever increasing scientific and medical knowledge in relation to its transmission and effects - since day one.

I don't need to be convinced of the "badness" of COVID. The evidence is all around us. We don't even know the longitudinal effects of it yet (there have been a ton of studies showing that even asymptomatic or mild cases of it leads to long-term problems after recovery including insomnia, migraines, cardiac damage, lung damage, etc). I want to be protected from COVID because (1) it is a deadly and dangerous illness and (2) even with its relatively low fatality rate, its non-fatal cases can still have devastating long-term effects and (3) even if it didn't, I should still be looking out for the rest of my society. I am aware of how little I or any health professionals know about the virus. That is where the source of my fear in the virus lies.

I have not been lied to or manipulated. I am justifiably concerned about a deadly viral vascular disease not just for myself but for society at large and as such I believe there must be restrictions on liberty temporarily so that more of us can enjoy restrictions on liberty permanently in the future.

I would urge you to read up actual scientific articles on the effects of Covid, not just whatever misinformation is coming up on your facebook news feed.

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

And exactly the reason LV was furious for not having any discussion about anything the past few weeks - just MM making the decision and damn everyone else

First few weeks they were too busy circle jerking for minister positions.
After that they were playing catch up. If they try to blame this on the public.... they have lost the plot.

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'll agree with the fact factories are the main issue and not house parties.
However, if they introduce a law stating no more than 6 guests in a private residence (house party) and someone breaks that.... that's criminal activity.
Breaking a law is criminal activity.... in the eyes of the courts, a law is a law. So that world of difference is lost and they are in the same basket as drug dealers etc....
This isn't about locking up people at a house party. It's just giving the guards power to enter a private residence when they know there's a crime being committed. They could have a 1 cent fine, and no prison time, it's enough to break up a party and the ****ers who wont leave can be arrested and spend time in a cell, brought before a judge and fined 1 cent.
That's enough to stop the party.

Unless they can provide irrefutable proof house parties are a danger to health there is not a chance in hell the law would make it past the AG

Every time Glynn has been asked about cases resulting from house parties he has deflected as has SD

It is a smoke screen

SeaBreezes

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I heard before that if people are convinced something is bad enough, they will beg for protection at all costs

I heard.if a journalist tweets a rumour about civil liberties being taken away, its suddenly fact and It makes people afraid and swells the ranks at an anti maskers rally.
...

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

Unless they can provide irrefutable proof house parties are a danger to health there is not a chance in hell the law would make it past the AG

Every time Glynn has been asked about cases resulting from house parties he has deflected as has SD

It is a smoke screen

If it's under the pubic health act, correct.
If it's a separate bill, that's different.
There's plenty of things against the law that have nothing to do with a danger to health.

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

If it's under the pubic health act, correct.
If it's a separate bill, that's different.
There's plenty of things against the law that have nothing to do with a danger to health.

The only way it would pass is if it is a public health matter - does the constitution not negate any other reason?

speckle

https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-powers-5180261-Aug2020/


https://www.iccl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ICCL_KYR_Justice_2014_LR.pdf

https://spunout.ie/life/article/your-rights-and-the-gardai

Of course new legislation may change the above but it must be constitutional

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

The only way it would pass is if it is a public health matter - does the constitution not negate any other reason?

Does the constitution protect me from guards entering my property if i'm slaughtering virgin's with a shotgun in the house?
If i'm cooking up meth and selling it to kids on the doorstep?
The only health being damaged are people on my property, I'm not leaking poison in the air killing the public. Then again a covid party could have the same effect on public health.

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

Does the constitution protect me from guards entering my property if i'm slaughtering virgin's with a shotgun in the house?
If i'm cooking up meth and selling it to kids on the doorstep?
The only health being damaged are people on my property, I'm not leaking poison in the air killing the public.

Well that would be a crime (under existing law) and gardai would either have to have reasonable suspicion a crime was being committed or obtain a warrant
I know there is reasons a guard can enter a property without a warrant - not disputing that

But when MM wants to make it illegal to have a house party and give gardai blanket permission to enter a property regardless then it's a very large step too far

Again I ask how many cases have been the result of a house party - I know there has been a few idiots scenes but...

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

Well that would be a crime and gardai would either have to have reasonable suspicion a crime was being committed or obtain a warrant
I know there is reasons a guard can enter a property without a warrant - not disputing that

But when MM wants to make it illegal to have a house party and give gardai blanket permission to enter a property regardless then it's a very large step too far

Again I ask how many cases have been the result of a house party - I know there has been a few idiots scenes but...

I'm thinking the law will be no more than 6 people from 3 households in the same house. You can still have a house party with 6 people outside your household.
He's not going to introduce a law banning house parties (there's no legal definition of a house party), he'll introduce a law banning the 6+ people extra in the house.
Again we don't know the powers that will be issued, but it won't be a blanket permission to enter a property.

Goldengirl

mandrake04 wrote: »

I think if you asked most people who have parents or Grandparents in their 60s or 70s should the government do what it takes to protect those people the best they can ....I would say most would agree these are extraordinary times and yes a bit of extra ‘encouragement’ in doing the right thing is needed... if this include a clip around the ear or a kick up the jacksy then that’s what needs to be done.

The schools and businesses like Pubs have been closed 5 months, people livelihoods are on the line if not in tatters. Yet the Airports are open, people are off to and fro on their Jollies and the virus makes a resurgence.... you have people dancing on bars, throwing house parties etc and people say ah sure it’s grand only a bit of the oul craic.

It’s just not good enough.

Yes , it is not good enough.
However I disagree that it is the majority .
I think the majority of people are still compliant, but are mad as hell that this government have not dealt with issues properly , while some of them{ government} are carrying on as if the rules do not apply to them . Such hypocrisy is untenable in a crisis such as we are in.
We need strong leadership at this time , not a pack of ineffectual has beens who really should sign it over to someone who can deal with it and knows what to do, whomever that may be. Not a great pool at the moment except may be the old pool , or a national government .
Meat factories should be closed until they are compliant.
HSA needs to be legislated to keep a check on said factories and other places of employment.
Covid needs to be included as an occupational illness like TB and Asbestosis , so workers are protected and the government can ensure work practices are safe.
This needs to happen before schools open. as schools are not, and will not be checked until they can be inspected under this legislation.
This is not groundbreaking stuff, it has been brought to the Dail committee and the floor of the Dail all summer by the unions , including mine, the INMO, but has been ignored by our legislators.
Why... because they know that they are bound over to close down areas that are unsafe or pay the price .
Over 8,500 healthcare workers have been infected , for example,so far , and who knows how or if these people will recover , and how it will affect them in their working lives.
This is what our Government should have been doing firstly, and imo is the most important . All this golf sxxx and house party nonsense is smoke and mirrors.

Don't mistake people having a bit of banter on a Saturday night for people who don't give a sxxx,
Some don't, I grant you that ,but most do, whether on one side or the other.

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'm thinking the law will be no more than 6 people from 3 households in the same house. You can still have a house party with 6 people outside your household.
He's not going to introduce a law banning house parties (there's no legal definition of a house party), he'll introduce a law banning the 6+ people extra in the house.
Again we don't know the powers that will be issued, but it won't be a blanket permission to enter a property.

Not trying to be argumentative (you are a reasonable person) but...
Unless the gardai enter the property how do they know how many are in the house, who they are and where they are from?
And therein lies the crux

speckle

So if everybody in the house has covid antibodies/t cells of the right type we can party as it has no public health effects or wear full body PPE
or none of the above if all party goers are cocooning anyway before and after or dance 2meters out the back garden away from each other listening to music, or having an afternoon tea party or if it lasts longer than 15 minutes no... 105 minutes as if we where in a restaurant or we all sign legal waivers or use our common sense not to annoy the neighbours and have the guards call to turn the noise down, can we have 15 people outside or 30 odd people inside like they have in classrooms or is it just the drink angle.... think I might have a zero birthday a year or so from now that I and my guests need to prepare for... I still think the spit on the paper covid test at the door is best

And oh... it really puts people who live on their own i.e. 1 membered households at a disadvantage over say families of 5. They have had it bad all through out this especially if most say if most of their family live in Dublin or down the country.

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

Not trying to be argumentative (you are a reasonable person) but...
Unless the gardai enter the property how do they know how many are in the house, who they are and where they are from?
And therein lies the crux

I'd assume once they get a call from the public, they would drive out and park outside the house. They would observe and if they see many people enter and exit the property or see a large crowd through the windows/curtains/blinds (more than could possibly live in the house) that would be sufficient evidence enough for them to maybe knock on the door and ask for people's addresses. If they don't oblige, maybe they can ring a judge and get a warrant to enter the property?

fritzelly

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'd assume once they get a call from the public, they would drive out and park outside the house. They would observe and if they see many people enter and exit the property or see a large crowd through the windows/curtains/blinds (more than could possibly live in the house) that would be sufficient evidence enough for them to maybe knock on the door and ask for people's addresses. If they don't oblige, maybe they can ring a judge and get a warrant to enter the property?

They have more serious stuff to be dealing with than monitoring every house that has a bit of music playing and a bbq in the back garden

I look forward to this making the news tomorrow, whilst many a journalist extrapolate from what they hear there is usually more than an element of truth

And with that my eyesight is gone so time for bed - can only play zombie games for so long, my heart cannot take it anymore

Goldengirl

speckle wrote: »

So if everybody in the house has covid antibodies/t cells of the right type we can party as it has no public health effects or wear full body PPE
or none of the above if all party goers are cocooning anyway before and after or dance 2meters out the back garden away from each other listening to music, or having an afternoon tea party or if it lasts longer than 15 minutes no... 105 minutes as if we where in a restaurant or we all sign legal waivers or use our common sense not to annoy the neighbours and have the guards call to turn the noise down, can we have 15 people outside or 30 odd people inside like they have in classrooms or is it just the drink angle.... think I might have a zero birthday a year or so from now that I and my guests need to prepare for... I still think the spit on the paper covid test at the door is best

It's the drink thing, as well as the distance and the indoor air and the length of time...but mainly the drink!

Goldengirl

fritzelly wrote: »

They have more serious stuff to be dealing with than monitoring every house that has a bit of music playing and a bbq in the back garden

I look forward to this making the news tomorrow, whilst many a journalist extrapolate from what they hear there is usually more than an element of truth

And with that my eyesight is gone so time for bed - can only play zombie games for so long, my heart cannot take it anymore

I am going to be awake all night now , wondering about MM :pac:

Wolf359f

fritzelly wrote: »

They have more serious stuff to be dealing with than monitoring every house that has a bit of music playing and a bbq in the back garden

I look forward to this making the news tomorrow, whilst many a journalist extrapolate from what they hear there is usually more than an element of truth

And with that my eyesight is gone so time for bed - can only play zombie games for so long, my heart cannot take it anymore

Don't be silly, they won't be outside every house, there's not enough guards.
They will wait until they get a disturbance call, loud music etc... you know the ones people be complaining about on here and the guards say they can't do anything about. I'm sure the guards can differentiate between a rave in a 1 bedroom apartment and a BBQ out the back in a large garden (then again that's a different restriction as it's outdoors)

Scoondal

Wolf359f wrote: »

Does the constitution protect me from guards entering my property if i'm slaughtering virgin's with a shotgun in the house?
If i'm cooking up meth and selling it to kids on the doorstep?
The only health being damaged are people on my property, I'm not leaking poison in the air killing the public. Then again a covid party could have the same effect on public health.

What is a covid party ?
Stop talking rubbish.
Go to bed.

speckle

Goldengirl wrote: »

It's the drink thing, as well as the distance and the indoor air and the length of time...but mainly the drink!

Giving me ideas a mad hatters tea party outdoors

Scoondal

1,777 deaths.
Journalists stopped from asking questions at a news conference.
Other journalists barred from reporting certain stories until a certain time.
Other good news about covid19 cases in hospitals not reported.
Is this a republic?

pjohnson

Scoondal wrote: »

1,777 deaths.
Journalists stopped from asking questions at a news conference.
Other journalists barred from reporting certain stories until a certain time.
Other good news about covid19 cases in hospitals not reported.
Is this a republic?

Obviously.

prunudo

Where are all these gardai that will breaking up parties going to come from. As it is, there is already a lack of gardai to deal with late night incidents, whether that be anti social behaviour or burglaries

Scoondal

Scoondal wrote: »

1,777 deaths.
Journalists stopped from asking questions at a news conference.
Other journalists barred from reporting certain stories until a certain time.
Other good news about covid19 cases in hospitals not reported.
Is this a republic?

Being a republic says nothing about the level of individual freedom within a country, Just that nominally the country is considered a public matter rather than a private concern such as in a monarchy.