FG to still just do nothing for the next 5 years - part 2

Madeleine Birchfield

PommieBast wrote: »

Irish parties all fall into two categories: Ones I don't trust to implement their manifesto, and ones I don't want to implement their manifesto..

Three categories. You are forgetting the ones that are too small to be able to implement their manifesto.

James Brown

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Three categories. You are forgetting the ones that are too small to be able to implement their manifesto.

Although hopefully headed that way, it wouldn't relate to FG as the third largest party.

christy c

PommieBast wrote: »

Irish parties all fall into two categories: Ones I don't trust to implement their manifesto, and ones I don't want to implement their manifesto..

Best summation I have seen!

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

Exonerated against the accusations yes, yes it does actually.

Was the judge lying?
Was there corruption involved in writing the report?
Don't like the facts, when it doesn't suit?

So either you are saying the judge was corrupt or he was correct in the report.
You cant have it both ways.

The problem Mark, is that the facts don’t matter anymore, it is only the narrative and the perception.

You can present all the evidence you like, but there will always be another smear from one of those posters - look at the Galway tent being drawn into another debate.

However, if you say Gerry Adams sheltered pedophiles, you will be accused of lynching an innocent man, despite the fact that his own words admit the fact.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem Mark, is that the facts don’t matter anymore, it is only the narrative and the perception.

You can present all the evidence you like, but there will always be another smear from one of those posters - look at the Galway tent being drawn into another debate.

However, if you say Gerry Adams sheltered pedophiles, you will be accused of lynching an innocent man, despite the fact that his own words admit the fact.

Nobody mis-represented facts in relation to why Frances Fitzgerald had to resign and why she made a shambles. Fine Gael arrogance and refusal to accept that they are not above anyone else.

MickClifford wrote:

She had to resign because she misrepresented the extent of her knowledge about what went on in 2015, she was slow in answering legitimate questions, her briefing to the Taoiseach saw him mislead the Dáil, and her department failed to discover important documents to the Disclosures Tribunal.

Yurt2

What is to be learned from the Id on display of Fine Gael super troopers across this thread and the general party culture:

They fundamentally feel sorry for themselves that their (constructed in their head) brilliance is not recognised and flip the lid at their failures being exposed and discussed at any length whatsoever in a democracy. End.

blanch152

If we move away from hyperbole and innuendo, and start to look at some facts about what is happened in society, a different picture emerges than the one of misery that is constantly posted here. Taking homelessness as an example:


https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/monthly-homeless-report-for-june-2020-quarterly-progress-report/


Homeless numbers are now at their lowest level since August 2016. There is a long way to go, but it is clear that the measures taken by the last government are beginning to have an effect. Homelessness is like a large ship, it takes time to change direction, so some credit for these figures must be due to Eoghan Murphy and the changes he brought into effect.

Let’s hope that this is just a start and that numbers will continue to come down.

Certainly, compared to Northern Ireland, we are in a much better position. Nothing to gloat about, but a warning to voters to be careful what they wish for.

James Brown

Yurt! wrote: »

What is to be learned from the Id on display of Fine Gael super troopers across this thread and the general party culture:

They fundamentally feel sorry for themselves that their (constructed in their head) brilliance is not recognised and flip the lid at their failures being exposed and discussed at any length whatsoever in a democracy. End.

The irony of dodging issues raised to tender false claims and then running away when asked to back up said claims is lost on them.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

If we move away from hyperbole and innuendo, and start to look at some facts about what is happened in society, a different picture emerges than the one of misery that is constantly posted here. Taking homelessness as an example:


https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/monthly-homeless-report-for-june-2020-quarterly-progress-report/


Homeless numbers are now at their lowest level since August 2016. There is a long way to go, but it is clear that the measures taken by the last government are beginning to have an effect. Homelessness is like a large ship, it takes time to change direction, so some credit for these figures must be due to Eoghan Murphy and the changes he brought into effect.

Let’s hope that this is just a start and that numbers will continue to come down.

Certainly, compared to Northern Ireland, we are in a much better position. Nothing to gloat about, but a warning to voters to be careful what they wish for.

The FG Id in all its glory.

FrancieBrady

Yurt! wrote: »

What is to be learned from the Id on display of Fine Gael super troopers across this thread and the general party culture:

They fundamentally feel sorry for themselves that their (constructed in their head) brilliance is not recognised and flip the lid at their failures being exposed and discussed at any length whatsoever in a democracy. End.

All week there has been a campaign here to change the subject. FG certainly don't like to be called to account. The whinging about Hogan hasn't stopped. At least FF took their medicine and aren't pointing fingers at 'lynch mobs' etc.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

If we move away from hyperbole and innuendo, and start to look at some facts about what is happened in society, a different picture emerges than the one of misery that is constantly posted here. Taking homelessness as an example:


https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/monthly-homeless-report-for-june-2020-quarterly-progress-report/


Homeless numbers are now at their lowest level since August 2016. There is a long way to go, but it is clear that the measures taken by the last government are beginning to have an effect. Homelessness is like a large ship, it takes time to change direction, so some credit for these figures must be due to Eoghan Murphy and the changes he brought into effect.

Let’s hope that this is just a start and that numbers will continue to come down.

Certainly, compared to Northern Ireland, we are in a much better position. Nothing to gloat about, but a warning to voters to be careful what they wish for.

We've discussed this twice before and both times I showed you Covid 19 played a major role and both times I showed you it was expected to surge once again once Covid ends. This Includes A&E attendance also.
This kind or murky half the story FG propaganda is raised and having it rebuked, only for it to disappear and reappear again some time later is not honest discussion but more of a repeated party political broadcast.

Link

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

We've discussed this twice before and both times I showed you Covid 19 played a major role and both times I showed you it was expected to surge once again once Covid ends. This Includes A&E attendance also.
This kind or murky half the story FG propaganda is raised and having it rebuked, only for it to disappear and reappear again some time later is not honest discussion but more of a repeated party political broadcast.

Link

I am not going down another rabbit-hole with you on this.

I have presented a report of the facts of the decrease in numbers. There are many different opinions on what is behind the numbers, but the numbers are the facts - homelessness is decreasing.

You can hold a different opinion than me on the reasons behind the facts, but you can’t dispute the facts that the numbers show a decrease.

What is new is the June report, which justifies me raising it again.

COVID-19 May have been the trigger for people to consider other options, but that doesn’t mean the numbers will go back up. For now, we should just be happy the numbers are going down, I mean, it is a good thing?

Muahahaha

Yurt! wrote: »

What is to be learned from the Id on display of Fine Gael super troopers across this thread and the general party culture:

They fundamentally feel sorry for themselves that their (constructed in their head) brilliance is not recognised and flip the lid at their failures being exposed and discussed at any length whatsoever in a democracy. End.

Yeah that was self evident in the aftermath of the election. They just couldnt believe that the electorate handed them their second worst ever election defeat because FG thought the election was going to be all about Brexit.

When it turned out to be about housing and their own imaginary brilliance was not being recognised they flipped the lid and began attacking anyone who criticised their disastrous nine years of housing policy from 2011-2020.

Thats where the favourite Fine Gael trope of "free houses" comes from, it was an angry reaction to criticism of 9 years of their failed housing policy. The only response was to claim that it wasnt their fault and it was all because everyone just wanted a "free house" :rolleyes: Thats the level of arrogance of Fine Gael really, victim blaming is par for the course to cover up their own failings.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not going down another rabbit-hole with you on this.

I have presented a report of the facts of the decrease in numbers. There are many different opinions on what is behind the numbers, but the numbers are the facts - homelessness is decreasing.

You can hold a different opinion than me on the reasons behind the facts, but you can’t dispute the facts that the numbers show a decrease.

What is new is the June report, which justifies me raising it again.

COVID-19 May have been the trigger for people to consider other options, but that doesn’t mean the numbers will go back up. For now, we should just be happy the numbers are going down, I mean, it is a good thing?

The numbers went down because we are in a pandemic. Nothing Murphy or FG did. TBF posing with a shovel with your sleeves rolled up wasn't going to achieve much.

FrancieBrady

Bowie wrote: »

The numbers went down because we are in a pandemic. Nothing Murphy or FG did. TBF posing with a shovel with your sleeves rolled up wasn't going to achieve much.

Blanch couldn't refute the Frances Fitzgerald stuff..made an allegation that people were trying to smear her and promptly tried to change the subject.

The Greens don't like it when you criticise FG.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Blanch couldn't refute the Frances Fitzgerald stuff..made an allegation that people were trying to smear her and promptly tried to change the subject.

The Greens don't like it when you criticise FG.

The Frances Fitzgerald question was more than adequately addressed by others. The rest of your post is personal invective trying to get a response, not going there.

markodaly wrote: »

I see you want to go down this rabbit hole again, it wont end well as last time you did that you had lots of egg on your face.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/frances-fitzgerald-acted-appropriately-at-all-times-charleton-1.3660184

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The Frances Fitzgerald question was more than adequately addressed by others. The rest of your post is personal invective trying to get a response, not going there.

The report didn't exonerate her for what Clifford outlines. You and mark are attempting to do exactly what Clifford accuses FG of doing. Latching on to a word and trying to claim it covers everything.
Touching loyalty but wholly wrong.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-30876014.html

.

Opinion piece vs A tribunal report writen by a judge?

Yes, we should all go with the opinion piece

You love the 'Alternative Facts' Francie! But is shows the mindset, when facts are presented against you case, you either ignore them, or dismiss them as irrelvant.
The post-truth world of Donald Trump right here displayed on this very thread!

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The report didn't exonerate her for what Clifford outlines. You and mark are attempting to do exactly what Clifford accuses FG of doing. Latching on to a word and trying to claim it covers everything.
Touching loyalty but wholly wrong.

And.... what exactly are you doing?

Using an opinion piece as a way to dismiss the Charleton report and proclaim her guilty anyway, even though an independent judge with no political axe to grind exonerated Fitzgerald.

A journalist can write what it wants, but we have a court system to proclaim people guilty or not. In this instance, the Disclosures Tribunal was the closet thing we had to a court sitting.

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

And.... what exactly are you doing?

Using an opinion piece as a way to dismiss the Charleton report and proclaim her guilty anyway, even though an independent judge with no political axe to grind exonerated Fitzgerald.

A journalist can write what it wants, but we have a court system to proclaim people guilty or not. In this instance, the Disclosures Tribunal was the closet thing we had to a court sitting.

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

Like Clifford...nobody is talking about the remit of the Carleton report.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like Clifford...nobody is talking about the remit of the Carleton report.

Double standards again.

Clifford can say what he likes about Frances Fitzgerald and it will be taken as gospel truth, but if Clifford was to turn around and say that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, he would be excorciated for convicting a man without a trial.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Double standards again.

Clifford can say what he likes about Frances Fitzgerald and it will be taken as gospel truth, but if Clifford was to turn around and say that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, he would be excorciated for convicting a man without a trial.

All Clifford has to do is to present compelling evidence for what he claims...same as anyone.

This has been done in relation to Frances Fitzgerald.
Carleton did not deal with the reasons for her resignation.

FG as Clifford says try to pretend otherwise

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like Clifford...nobody is talking about the remit of the Carleton report.

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

Was the Dàil misled mark? Was that the reason she had to go?
Did she make an almighty mess of the wh9le thing and do those who may be considering her for a position need to know about that?
We do not, repeat, NOT need to send another FGer who thinks they have the smarts to lie and get away with it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Was the Dàil misled mark? Was that the reason she had to go?
Did she make an almighty mess of the wh9le thing and do those who may be considering her for a position need to know about that?
We do not, repeat, NOT need to send another FGer who thinks they have the smarts to lie and get away with it.

Answer a question with a question.

Again, do you accept the Charleton Report or not?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Answer a question with a question.

Again, do you accept the Charleton Report or not?

What relevance has it to the conversation?

Did Frances Fitzgerald mislead and did she make a complete mess of it and end up having to resign?

I await an answer to this.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Was the Dàil misled mark? Was that the reason she had to go?
Did she make an almighty mess of the wh9le thing and do those who may be considering her for a position need to know about that?
We do not, repeat, NOT need to send another FGer who thinks they have the smarts to lie and get away with it.

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What relevance has it to the conversation?

.

Do you mean what does the Charleton Report has to do with the conversation?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Do you believe the Charleton report Francie?
Do you take issue with its findings?
If so, which findings and why?
Are you suggesting wrongdoing in the summation of the report?
If so, what wrongdoing?

No I don't have any issue with it and I never mentioned it.

Now - do you accept why Frances Fitzgerald resigned? Was the Dail misled? Yes or no?

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Opinion piece vs A tribunal report writen by a judge?

Yes, we should all go with the opinion piece

You love the 'Alternative Facts' Francie! But is shows the mindset, when facts are presented against you case, you either ignore them, or dismiss them as irrelvant.
The post-truth world of Donald Trump right here displayed on this very thread!

Please point out any incorrect statements in the piece.

She had to resign because she misrepresented the extent of her knowledge about what went on in 2015, she was slow in answering legitimate questions, her briefing to the Taoiseach saw him mislead the Dáil, and her department failed to discover important documents to the Disclosures Tribunal.

That's at best gross incompetence.

We don't need a poor candidate. Looks like Coveney wants it, that'll leave FG on dodgy ground numbers wise. Was hoping he'd run for leader again. Bring some credibility to the party.