What’s the alternative for Direct Provision?

briany

How would you process an asylum claim quickly yet thoroughly? At a minimum level, I would imagine the asylum process requires interviews and examination of papers, if they have papers and if they speak the language. If they arrive on a boat or in the back of a lorry, you don't even necessarily know where they have come from. If they don't tell you for fear of being sent back to that place, then where do you put them?

goose2005

biko wrote: »

The decision process must be transparent to everyone and impeccable to scrutiny.

Refugees have a right to privacy though, i mean, given that they are (supposedly) fleeing persecution

Jinglejangle69

Gatling wrote: »

We will never get a transparent system ,it's like when they brought in the digital finger print scanners for the immigration department ,and it was widely believed they were actually being used to detect illegals who had registered in other countries ,then several years later we find out that they were sitting there gathering dust because Unions wanted immigration officials to be given another paygrade increase for being finger print technicians .

We don't know where the majority of the 60,000 + who have been through dp are , and very few deportations especially involving bogus claims.


How people Have this idea we can simply house everyone who comes here straight away regardless of if they are given status or not

Same people who think we can and should house all Irish people if they just want a social house.

Just because they said they want one and could end up homeless if they don't get one.

No questions asked.

Cuckoo land these people live in.

Spanish Eyes

There is a reason they arrive here. Find out what that is (obvious to many really), and change it.

I know the topic is marmite, and controversial, but honestly we just cannot support so many at this time. I really thought the numbers would fall during Covid restrictions, maybe they did. I don't know.

But the minute INIS stopped arriving passengers from Albania, that element was over. 98% were bogus. But they were white.

Montage of Feck

South Georgia is nice this time of year.

JRant

briany wrote: »

How would you process an asylum claim quickly yet thoroughly? At a minimum level, I would imagine the asylum process requires interviews and examination of papers, if they have papers and if they speak the language. If they arrive on a boat or in the back of a lorry, you don't even necessarily know where they have come from. If they don't tell you for fear of being sent back to that place, then where do you put them?

Anyone arriving without papers needs to be housed in detention centres until they fess up or their home country can be identified. What they shouldn't get is unlimited use of health, education, and social welfare systems straight off the bat.

Spanish Eyes

JRant wrote: »

Anyone arriving without papers needs to be housed in detention centres until they fess up or their home country can be identified. What they shouldn't get is unlimited use of health, education, and social welfare systems straight off the bat.

Look, we all know it's an industry, NGO's, DP providers, advocates the lot.

The genuine ones should be here from UN lists. That's fine, but it really is difficult to consider most of the rest of them being in fear of their lives.

I see that two South Africans are due to be deported now. But of course their fellow students are going mad. This cannot go on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/athlone-students-deportation-5173006-Aug2020/

JRant

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Look, we all know it's an industry, NGO's, DP providers, advocates the lot.

The genuine ones should be here from UN lists. That's fine, but it really is difficult to consider most of the rest of them being in fear of their lives.

I see that two South Africans are due to be deported now. But of course their fellow students are going mad. This cannot go on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/athlone-students-deportation-5173006-Aug2020/

On a human level it's a sad story but we either have rules or we don't.

kravmaga

gailforecast wrote: »

Do we just need to process applications sooner, or is there actually a practical solution that can be an alternative?

Yeah the easiest solution is to deport them all , waste of taxpayers money for mainly economic migrants , absolute disgrace.

https://extra.ie/2020/07/29/news/irish-news/irish-people-black-people-ireland-survey

Geuze

Bear in mind that most AS are not fleeing persecution, they arrive here from the UK.

kravmaga

goose2005 wrote: »

Refugees have a right to privacy though, i mean, given that they are (supposedly) fleeing persecution

Allegedly fleeing persecution, normally made up mumbo jumbo.

More like economic migrants, imo though, looking to exploit the generous benefits system here

kravmaga

briany wrote: »

How would you process an asylum claim quickly yet thoroughly? At a minimum level, I would imagine the asylum process requires interviews and examination of papers, if they have papers and if they speak the language. If they arrive on a boat or in the back of a lorry, you don't even necessarily know where they have come from. If they don't tell you for fear of being sent back to that place, then where do you put them?

You send them back from where they came from, simple.

Geuze

goose2005 wrote: »

Refugees have a right to privacy though, i mean, given that they are (supposedly) fleeing persecution

This discussion is about AS, not refugees.

AS are not fleeing persecution.

AllForIt

The asylum system was never set up in expectation of a situation where migrants would come en masse, constantly, where there looks no end to it. As they have in the UK now, arriving via dingys. The asylum system has to be looked at again in view of the numbers involved.

It's a crazy policy to just say 'oh yeah, we'll take them all. Just welcome them no matter how many. Let's not concern ourselves with the numbers'.

And because this seems to be ignored I can't help but have the feeling there are those who want it. Not to want to save ppl's lives arriving via dingy's but are delighted to have them come no matter how or why they come, for some distributive or ideological reason.

DelaneyIn

More Balbriggans and more ethnic strife.

After the citizenship referendum 30k former asylum seekers got leave to remain under the IBC scheme.

Arrangements have been put in place for the processing of applications for renewal of permission to remain in the State from non-nationals who are the parents of an Irish born child, born in the State before 1 January 2005, who were granted permission to remain in the State under the Irish Born Child Scheme 2005 (IBC/05). These arrangements require each applicant, who wishes to apply for renewal of permission to remain, to submit a completed application form and supporting documentation.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/Website/inis-en.nsf/0/52E1E2F19885A8DF802572E30032AB52/$File/IBC05Renewal.pdf?OpenElement

It was an effective amnesty for failed asylum seekers who had an Irish born child before the citizenship referendum. After the IBC 05, some 23,178 Nigerians were registered with the Department of social welfare. They were given social housing in areas such as Blanchardstown, Balbriggan, Tallaght etc.

Now this reliance upon the state for the accommodation of so many Nigerians reflects another rather uncomfortable truth which was revealed in the 2006 census, but which has never -- so far as I know -- been highlighted in the media. It is this: contrary to almost all predictions about the impact of immigrants upon an economy, a majority of Nigerians are not economically active at all. For even at the height of the boom, in 2006, only 38pc over the age of 15 were at work.

Maybe this is because so many are too old for work? Not so. There are almost no Nigerians over 50. Their average age is 26.6, with some 10,000 between the ages of 25 and 44. Yes, there are a large number of Nigerian children (3,845 under fifteen), but that figure of 38pc at work is a percentage of the over-15s only. The equivalent working proportions are: Poles, 84pc; Lithuanians, 82pc; and Latvians 82pc. On the other hand, the figures for rental-subsidy (remember: Nigerians 18.6pc) are Poles, 1.5pc; Lithuanians, 3pc; and Latvians, 4.3pc.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-26469455.html

What we are seeing today in Balbriggan is due to the IBC 05 scheme. Prior to the citizenship referendum, majority of female asylum seekers over the age of fifteen were pregnant upon claiming asylum. I think 58% of the total. A staggering figure. Their children have now grown up and are showing us nothing but contempt.

The employment rate for Africans in Ireland was also very low at 45%

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/

We should be integrating those legally here and trying to integrate them into the workforce and society at large. Not further opening the doors to more newcomers who need a huge investment from our welfare and housing budget.

We can not afford to give another amnesty to all asylum seekers and do away with direct provision. We would be repeating our mistake in 2005 and causing huge future social problems in more areas of our country.

But that is what we will get. Our elected representatives are rushing forward to get rid of direct provision, afford these people social housing, welfare etc. And we will have many more Balbriggans on our hands.

Geuze

The costs of bogus AS are spiralling:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/justice-officials-seek-emergency-cash-injection-amid-120m-overspend-bill-due-to-covid-39443060.html


From 81m to 200m..................


We need to process claims much faster, and deport much faster.

We simply can't afford to deal with so much illegal immigration.

Geuze

Leave to Remain should be massively reduced, if not abolished.

ShamNNspace

Iv said it before offer anyone in the system 5k and a flight and fingerprint them and photograph them and send them on their way it'd work out cheaper in the end, and start again with a stricter regime

Mad_maxx

Gatling wrote: »

Hasn't stopped 60,000 + who lived in Dp .and still coming

Get fed , clothing , small allowence ,free medical care ,free to leave for holidays ,

Has anyone ever seen a starving asylum seeker due to not eating the so called inedible food been served to them 3 /4 times a day

That's a drop in the ocean to what would arrive if RTE got their way

The number's willing to come are endless

enricoh

Geuze wrote: »

The costs of bogus AS are spiralling:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/justice-officials-seek-emergency-cash-injection-amid-120m-overspend-bill-due-to-covid-39443060.html


From 81m to 200m..................


We need to process claims much faster, and deport much faster.

We simply can't afford to deal with so much illegal immigration.

Can we not just increase the pension age?! It'll save our politicians from having to take any tough decisions!

lawrencesummers

I had a look through this thread and am yet to see anyone link the length of time the process takes to the problems we have in our legal system and the backlog of cases that these vested interests have no interest in clearing.

If we had a properly functioning legal system in this country it could solve problems like this along with Insurance Costs, Tribunal Costs, Planning and Roads construction problems and not to mention the big one Crime and repeat offending.

That said, we should move the asylum process to country of origin, or the closest safe country to them, The UN (or whoever) should be tasked with establishing safe havens for applicants to stay in camps under international
Peace keeping guard if necessary and make their applications, each individual Developed country can then commit to accepting a certain amount of people and they can be brought then to pre arranged housing and education in different parts of Ireland once their process is approved. The massive waste of money on transport, housing, legal fees, repatriation etc etc can be diverted to the UN to provide camps and medical assistance in country of origin while individual cases are examined and approved before they arrive here. If an airline allows someone to fly here without correct documentation for entry then they can cover the cost of return to home country asylum seeking camp where they can apply in person.

Take the money away from Cosy Irish citizens that are profiting and Spend it in the countries where it is needed and we ultimately end up with the same result as refugees are housed and allow to settle here Into communities that are prepared for them.

suicide_circus

Geuze wrote: »

Leave to Remain should be massively reduced, if not abolished.

Surely it makes an absolute mockery of all the time and effort it takes to access people's asylum claims?

"We've determined that your asylum claim is baseless....but sure stay anyway."

Insanity.

AllForIt

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I had a look through this thread and am yet to see anyone link the length of time the process takes to the problems we have in our legal system and the backlog of cases that these vested interests have no interest in clearing.

If we had a properly functioning legal system in this country it could solve problems like this along with Insurance Costs, Tribunal Costs, Planning and Roads construction problems and not to mention the big one Crime and repeat offending.

That said, we should move the asylum process to country of origin, or the closest safe country to them, The UN (or whoever) should be tasked with establishing safe havens for applicants to stay in camps under international
Peace keeping guard if necessary and make their applications, each individual Developed country can then commit to accepting a certain amount of people and they can be brought then to pre arranged housing and education in different parts of Ireland once their process is approved. The massive waste of money on transport, housing, legal fees, repatriation etc etc can be diverted to the UN to provide camps and medical assistance in country of origin while individual cases are examined and approved before they arrive here. If an airline allows someone to fly here without correct documentation for entry then they can cover the cost of return to home country asylum seeking camp where they can apply in person.

Take the money away from Cosy Irish citizens that are profiting and Spend it in the countries where it is needed and we ultimately end up with the same result as refugees are housed and allow to settle here Into communities that are prepared for them.

The problem is how many and for how long are we expected to take them.

How many over how long have we agreed to take them?

No one knows. Because the current situation was never foreseen when asylum laws were enacted.

Are we saying we will take legitimate asylum seekers, no matter how many? As long as they are legitimate?

What if a situation arises where there is hundreds of thousand of them? You wouldn't wonder these days that might happen.

I think the flaw in the asylum system is that we have to keep them indefinitely. I.e, there is no going back for them so we integrate them into the country forever.

I think that is fundamentally wrong. No wars last forever. A long time maybe but not forever. The asylum system has to have a resettling element to it. Why wouldn't they want to go back to their own country anyway?


edit: if we say that a country is so bad, that we have to take it's citizens from it who escape from it, then why not take them all. Of course that is impracticable, but surely we have to do something about those countries. We can't absorb them all. We have to stop them coming here in the first place. Playing Mother Teresa is just silly.

Beechwoodspark

Would like to hear what people are proposing for the alternative to direct provision ??

briany

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I had a look through this thread and am yet to see anyone link the length of time the process takes to the problems we have in our legal system and the backlog of cases that these vested interests have no interest in clearing.

If we had a properly functioning legal system in this country it could solve problems like this along with Insurance Costs, Tribunal Costs, Planning and Roads construction problems and not to mention the big one Crime and repeat offending.

That said, we should move the asylum process to country of origin, or the closest safe country to them, The UN (or whoever) should be tasked with establishing safe havens for applicants to stay in camps under international
Peace keeping guard if necessary and make their applications, each individual Developed country can then commit to accepting a certain amount of people and they can be brought then to pre arranged housing and education in different parts of Ireland once their process is approved. The massive waste of money on transport, housing, legal fees, repatriation etc etc can be diverted to the UN to provide camps and medical assistance in country of origin while individual cases are examined and approved before they arrive here. If an airline allows someone to fly here without correct documentation for entry then they can cover the cost of return to home country asylum seeking camp where they can apply in person.

Take the money away from Cosy Irish citizens that are profiting and Spend it in the countries where it is needed and we ultimately end up with the same result as refugees are housed and allow to settle here Into communities that are prepared for them.

The UN already has a system of camps for refugees, although I guess that system can always be expanded.

There's a big question of how you would actually apportion refugees whose asylum claim is valid. I mean, sure, western countries may want to take whichever ones have a useful skill like being a qualified nurse or computer programmer, but there's bound to be many who have no skills such that western labour markets would want them, and so you would have a lot of people who perhaps their eventual host countries felt were foisted upon them, or a lot of poor people stuck in the limbo of an ever-growing refugee camp with no real life to look forward to.

lawrencesummers

briany wrote: »

The UN already has a system of camps for refugees, although I guess that system can always be expanded.

There's a big question of how you would actually apportion refugees whose asylum claim is valid. I mean, sure, western countries may want to take whichever ones have a useful skill like being a qualified nurse or computer programmer, but there's bound to be many who have no skills such that western labour markets would want them, and so you would have a lot of people who perhaps their eventual host countries felt were foisted upon them, or a lot of poor people stuck in the limbo of an ever-growing refugee camp with no real life to look forward to.

The problem of apportioning validity is the same if they are temporary residents here or in a UN serviced and secured camp, and it’s probably easier to confirm a refugees validity by being actually on the ground in proximity to where they are from.

Quotas of refugees can be agreed upon at an EU level of you want, and within that comes a mix of educated and uneducated for every country with access to education as part of the process.

I’ve no problem with people coming here from any part of the world, I welcome diversity and affording opportunity to the most vulnerable, we can use the money wiser and with more effect.

ThunbergsAreGo

a central holding facility and faster processing is the only real alternative

Kivaro

While reading on the Village Magazine website this morning about the alleged leaking by Leo Varadkar of confidential information to a personal friend, I encountered this snippet of information:
"Ó Tuathail, who once asked whether Bowes would consider opening a direct provision centre, given the financial rewards for doing so.".

It's all about the money folks, isn't it.
Many times it has been said that the Asylum Industry in Ireland is a very lucrative business to be in, especially for those who have contacts in high places. The whole system stinks to high heaven. They do not care about the refugees and they certainly do not care about the Irish people who have to pay the enormous financial and social costs associated with the for-profit Asylum Industry.

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

While reading on the Village Magazine website this morning about the alleged leaking by Leo Varadkar of confidential information to a personal friend, I encountered this snippet of information:
"Ó Tuathail, who once asked whether Bowes would consider opening a direct provision centre, given the financial rewards for doing so.".

It's all about the money folks, isn't it.
Many times it has been said that the Asylum Industry in Ireland is a very lucrative business to be in, especially for those who have contacts in high places. The whole system stinks to high heaven. They do not care about the refugees and they certainly do not care about the Irish people who have to pay the enormous financial and social costs associated with the for-profit Asylum Industry.

You've extrapolated a lot from that one quote

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

You've extrapolated a lot from that one quote

No, I did not use that quote to extrapolate the fact that massive amounts of money is spent and profited from the Asylum Industry in Ireland. That information is already in the public domain e.g. the billions spent by Irish taxpayers since Direct Provision and its ancillary services came into existence.

I used that quote to sustain the fact that those-in-the-know (connected people) were aware that the "financial rewards" were substantial if you were in the business of providing services to asylum seekers.