Covid-19 likely to be man made

geospatial

Deleted User wrote: »

That vanity fair article points to a cover up..

I just read it. It's a solid piece of investigative reporting and the sources are likely credible as we know that the Trump administration leaked like a sieve. There was clearly huge concern about US funded gain of function research in Wuhan becoming public, but it would have been far better to get out ahead of the story rather than trying to bury it. It's a mess now and will only be resolved via an open investigation, as a broad spectrum of people just don't believe they are being told the truth.

King Mob

geospatial wrote: »

You are misrepresenting everything I have stated. Literally everything. Having read back a bit on this thread, you do it to everyone who disagrees with you.

Lol. You're claiming this, yet I can point out a bunch of examples where you've actually done it.
Can you point out where I have done so?

geospatial wrote: »

Here is my position on the US investigation, for the 15th time.

I welcome a full open and transparent investigation. Do you?

I expect it to actually investigate the possibility of a lab leak. Do you?

Yes and yes. Never said anything to the contrary.

geospatial wrote: »

To investigate that possibility I believe the US govt need to get access to WIV data. Do you?

No I don't think that this is the only way to investigate the possibility. The data would be helpful, sure, but I don't think that it would render the investigation void if they aren't able to get access to it.

geospatial wrote: »

I expect the findings to be publicly announced with supporting evidence. Do you?

Yup.

geospatial wrote: »

I have defined this evidence as the lab data from WIV and location data on the first few hundred actual cases of Covid in Wuhan. Is this a reasonable expectation?

No, I think it's a bit of a artificial limitation on the investigation.

Are you saying that if the investigation uses other evidence and reasoning without this specific data set, you'll reject the investigation's conclusion?

geospatial wrote: »

I believe a finding of "we found no evidence of a lab leak", with no actual data secured from the WIV would be a very poor outcome. Do you agree?

No, I don't agree. I believe that there could be other sources of evidence and reasoning beyond this data.
I believe that if they announce the finding that "we found no evidence of a lab leak" and use other evidence and reasoning, I think this is a fair outcome. Do you?

I suspect that you will not think this outcome is good. I think you will use the fact that they didn't use this specific set of data will be an excuse for yourself to reject any other reasoning or evidence the investigation uses as false or inadequate. I suspect then, you will then start claiming that the investigation was part of a cover up.

astrofool

geospatial wrote: »

There is no damage to the scientific community? Scientists have been receiving death threats, would you regard that as damaging? Gain of function research is very much in the spotlight, with groups of scientists taking very strong positions on both sides. What's your opinion of gain of function research that most certainly could have led to a virus like SARS-2, and most certainly could have leaked from a lab as there have been numerous leaks of dangerous pathogens from labs.

Can you summarize the scientific evidence that the SARS-CoV 2 virus is zootonic in nature and rules out it being the result of signal passaging experiments or genetic engineering experiments in a lab. The evidence is that the virus is a chimera and has unique features not seen in other bat coronaviruses, it could have come from a natural source via recombination or been created in a lab. A virus as the result of lab serial passaging would look no different genomically to a zootonic virus and it is doubtful if one genetically engineered would look different.

As I said my personal belief is the evidence favors a natural source, but both should be investigated.

Just to come back on this, death threats should absolutely not be tolerated.

I have no doubt that gain of function research is happening and will continue to happen. The evidence that SARS-COV2 emerged from GOF research is non existent, not even weak. The only reason it's still in play as a theory is that it fits narratives rather than being evidential based. The technology review article you posted seems to hinge on one area, that being the ACE2 receptor that has occurred naturally before in other recent virus, shows no evidence of tampering in it's genome (being probably the most studied receptor in human history) and itself has mutated since the virus emerged.

The WHO investigation eliminated lab leak due to lack of evidence (if you take the WHO scientists at face value, but if you don't you are only likely to get answers by travelling to Wuhan and performing the investigation yourself) and because of lack of evidence didn't investigate it further.

A year on it's questionable if the USA investigation into a virus originating in China will turn up anything new, the most likely outcome is a reinforcing of the results from the WHO investigation with much the same evidence, possibly a bit of extra detail from the WIV. If that was the outcome, would you accept it?

tara73

King Mob wrote: »

But they did investigate the possibility of a lab leak.

show us the link, the prove to it! prove us that they seriously investigated the possibility of a lab leak.
also who is they? give us a link who investigated the possibility of the lab leak as you claim.

King Mob

tara73 wrote: »

show us the link, the prove to it! prove us that they seriously investigated the possibility of a lab leak.
also who is they? give us a link who investigated the possibility of the lab leak as you claim.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00865-8
There you go.

astrofool

tara73 wrote: »

show us the link, the prove to it! prove us that they seriously investigated the possibility of a lab leak.
also who is they? give us a link who investigated the possibility of the lab leak as you claim.

who investigated the lab leak (?)

tara73

King Mob wrote: »

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00865-8
There you go.

an article in the 'nature'. what's that for a magazine? jut written down from a magazine?


also this, the head from the WHO, says this in your nice little article:


--after the report’s publication, the WHO director-general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, who was not directly involved with the investigation, posted a statement saying that he looks forward to future studies of the coronavirus’s animal origins — but that he wasn’t content with the examination of a potential laboratory leak. “I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough,” he wrote. “This requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.”--


hahaha, ridiculous.....with this article you've actually just proven that all is in the open, and that they NOT exclude the lab leak theory and want to investigate it further...
god, this 4-5 posters here, just a complete waste of time to discuss with.

Mic 1972

geospatial wrote: »

You are misrepresenting everything I have stated. Literally everything. Having read back a bit on this thread, you do it to everyone who disagrees with you.

Here is my position on the US investigation, for the 15th time.

I welcome a full open and transparent investigation. Do you?

I expect it to actually investigate the possibility of a lab leak. Do you?

To investigate that possibility I believe the US govt need to get access to WIV data. Do you?

I expect the findings to be publicly announced with supporting evidence. Do you?

I have defined this evidence as the lab data from WIV and location data on the first few hundred actual cases of Covid in Wuhan. Is this a reasonable expectation?

I believe a finding of "we found no evidence of a lab leak", with no actual data secured from the WIV would be a very poor outcome. Do you agree?

Mate, stop engaging with him, we've all went through the same with him before. He asks the same questions over and over accusing you of dodging the questions. Eventually you'll be the one getting a warning from the mods

Dohnjoe

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Mate, stop engaging with him, we've all went through the same with him before. He asks the same questions over and over accusing you of dodging the questions. Eventually you'll be the one getting a warning from the mods

Ignoring posters who challenge your views and now encouraging others to ignore posters.

biddyearley

Man made or man-modified, I believe the Chinese either deliberately released it, or if accidentally, decide"fcuk it let's see what happens."

Dohnjoe

tara73 wrote: »

show us the link, the prove to it! prove us that they seriously investigated the possibility of a lab leak.
also who is they? give us a link who investigated the possibility of the lab leak as you claim.

The lab-leak theory was investigated by the joint WHO investigation - they found it to be "extremely unlikely"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55996728
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/report-finds-coronavirus-probably-emerged-bats-extremely-unlikely-resu-rcna536

tara73

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Mate, stop engaging with him, we've all went through the same with him before. He asks the same questions over and over accusing you of dodging the questions. Eventually you'll be the one getting a warning from the mods

that's how it is. crazy stuff happening here I would say..

Danzy

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The lab-leak theory was investigated by the joint WHO investigation - they found it to be "extremely unlikely"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55996728
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/report-finds-coronavirus-probably-emerged-bats-extremely-unlikely-resu-rcna536

In fairness the Who have next to now credibility at this state in regard to Covid.

They know who writes the cheques.

tara73

King Mob wrote: »

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00865-8
There you go.

and btw, you know the WHO is heavily sponsored by the chinese government ?
so it is highly likely they will never state something that incrimintes China.

Yes, you don't need to answer, I know your answer already:

conspiracy theory!! provide a link the WHO is heavily sponsored by China!!..:rolleyes:

King Mob

tara73 wrote: »

an article in the 'nature'. what's that for a magazine? jut written down from a magazine?

Nature is one of the foremost science publications in the world.

It's not "Just written down in a magazine".

tara73 wrote: »

hahaha, ridiculous.....with this article you've actually just proven that all is in the open, and that they NOT exclude the lab leak theory and want to investigate it further...

Ok And? Who said otherwise?

Sorry, but you're not making a ton of sense here.

tara73 wrote: »

and btw, you know the WHO is heavily sponsored by the chinese government ?
so it is highly likely they will never state something that incrimintes China.

Yes, you don't need to answer, I know your answer already:

conspiracy theory!! provide a link the WHO is heavily sponsored by China!!..:rolleyes:

Yes. I would like to see some evidence that shows that China controls the WHO.
Why is that an unreasonable request?
Should I just believe what I'm told by randos on the internet without question?

Since you believe that China is under the control of China, why did their report not discount the lab leak theory entirely?

Dohnjoe

tara73 wrote: »

and btw, you know the WHO is heavily sponsored by the chinese government ?
so it is highly likely they will never state something that incrimintes China.

Yes, you don't need to answer, I know your answer already:

conspiracy theory!! provide a link the WHO is heavily sponsored by China!!..:rolleyes:

It was a joint WHO-China investigation, every article on this points out the fact. Everyone is aware of the conflict of interest, hence the US is having another investigation (which could have it's own conflicts of interest)

This is why international investigations are often conducted by independent third parties - but with a country as closed and controlled as China that is unlikely

NSAman

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It was a joint WHO-China investigation, every article on this points out the fact. Everyone is aware of the conflict of interest, hence the US is having another investigation (which could have it's own conflicts of interest)

This is why international investigations are often conducted by independent third parties - but with a country as closed and controlled as China that is unlikely

So basically all the ‘evidence” you posted is crap! Even by your own admission above?

Dohnjoe

NSAman wrote: »

So basically all the ‘evidence” you posted is crap! Even by your own admission above?

I was responding to the posters requests for details of the investigation, which they didn't seem to know about.

Personally, do I 100% trust a WHO-China study investigation? No, of course not. Unfortunately, for the moment, it's all we have.

Mic 1972

it's kind of disturbing that an issue of this magnitude is still being discussed in the conspiracy theory section.
There is a major mainstream discussion taking place at the moment in places that would have normally censored the issue right away.

shil.mar

We never gonna know the truth...

patnor1011

geospatial wrote: »

I should have listened.

Not just that. In one post he said he think he know that you believe in something and then tried to expand on that. Couple posts later he may be claiming it was you who actually said that.
If you ask him something he will say dunno or proclaim that you should answer his questions first. Oh yes, and if you want to answer then dunno is not acceptable. Simple yes or no and if you try to say something more here we go again - you are dodging questions.
Constantly muddying waters with statements that you are dodging or refuse to answer questions is good tactic. You are not the first one who been there - done that.

King Mob

Mic 1972 wrote: »

it's kind of disturbing that an issue of this magnitude is still being discussed in the conspiracy theory section.
There is a major mainstream discussion taking place at the moment in places that would have normally censored the issue right away.

This particular topic is here in the conspiracy theories section because people were and are suggesting ridiculous conspiracy theories.

For example, people have been suggesting things beyond the simple lab leak idea, like the idea that the virus was manufactured from scratch or that it is a bioweapon.
Most recently, people have been claiming that China secretly control the WHO.

Dohnjoe

I still haven't seen any credible evidence that the virus was "manufactured". Someone submitted a paper, but it left that out in it's final conclusion. So we're still at zero with topic of the thread.

Mic 1972

patnor1011 wrote: »

Not just that. In one post he said he think he know that you believe in something and then tried to expand on that. Couple posts later he may be claiming it was you who actually said that.
If you ask him something he will say dunno or proclaim that you should answer his questions first. Oh yes, and if you want to answer then dunno is not acceptable. Simple yes or no and if you try to say something more here we go again - you are dodging questions.
Constantly muddying waters with statements that you are dodging or refuse to answer questions is good tactic. You are not the first one who been there - done that.

Correct.
Ultimately he is spamming the thread, making it impossible for others to have an organic conversation. Often it's just straight out bullying

quickbeam

patnor1011 wrote: »

Not just that. In one post he said he think he know that you believe in something and then tried to expand on that. Couple posts later he may be claiming it was you who actually said that.
If you ask him something he will say dunno or proclaim that you should answer his questions first. Oh yes, and if you want to answer then dunno is not acceptable. Simple yes or no and if you try to say something more here we go again - you are dodging questions.
Constantly muddying waters with statements that you are dodging or refuse to answer questions is good tactic. You are not the first one who been there - done that.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Correct.
Ultimately he is spamming the thread, making it impossible for others to have an organic conversation. Often it's just straight out bullying

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Mate, stop engaging with him, we've all went through the same with him before. He asks the same questions over and over accusing you of dodging the questions. Eventually you'll be the one getting a warning from the mods

Mod: too right you will! Knock off the personal attacks. Engage in debate or ignore, but quit the sniping.

patnor1011

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I still haven't seen any credible evidence that the virus was "manufactured". Someone submitted a paper, but it left that out in it's final conclusion. So we're still at zero with topic of the thread.

Ok, no credible evidence for lab escape and so far no credible evidence of natural evolution or jumping species. All we have is maybe, probably and highly likely.
So, isn't it a little premature to call people conspiracy theorists if they go for possible lab leak theory?

patnor1011

quickbeam wrote: »

Mod: too right you will! Knock off the personal attacks. Engage in debate or ignore, but quit the sniping.

Understood. Ignore is working fine for me.

King Mob

patnor1011 wrote: »

Ok, no credible evidence for lab escape and so far no credible evidence of natural evolution or jumping species.

But again, this isn't true.
There's many papers that detail the zoonotic origin for the virus.

Ignoring things don't stop them from existing unfortunately.

patnor1011

Mic 1972 wrote: »

it's kind of disturbing that an issue of this magnitude is still being discussed in the conspiracy theory section.
There is a major mainstream discussion taking place at the moment in places that would have normally censored the issue right away.

Well, seeing how things evolve and how "facts" change at a whim depending on situation or "need" we should be quite happy we can discuss some topics.
Simple mentioning of certain topics few months ago would result in scores of insults, personal attacks and ultimately a thread ban.

geospatial

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It was a joint WHO-China investigation, every article on this points out the fact. Everyone is aware of the conflict of interest, hence the US is having another investigation (which could have it's own conflicts of interest)

It was an investigation completely controlled by the CCP, they set the rules, they provided the data that they choose to provide, they determined what access the investigators would have or not have.

Two quotes from the attached CNN article: "Dominic Dwyer a member of the WHO team told Reuters last week that the team had requested raw patient data on the 174 early cases and been refused, and were instead provided a summary". Why would the CCP refuse to provide this data? Because maybe it shows the early cases were centered around the WIV?

On the lab leak hypothesis: Here's our ubiquitous friend Peter Daszak again "We found no tangible evidence or real leads on that, despite asking really hard question of the WIV". Really hard questions? Like can we see your data that was taken down from your servers in Nov 2019, and see your lab notebooks, and see your lab safety records". Nope, didn't ask for any of that. Just asked did anyone at the WIV test positive for Covid, answer was no, case closed.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/asia/who-report-criticism-intl-hnk/index.html

Mic 1972

patnor1011 wrote: »

Well, seeing how things evolve and how "facts" change at a whim depending on situation or "need" we should be quite happy we can discuss some topics.
Simple mentioning of certain topics few months ago would result in scores of insults, personal attacks and ultimately a thread ban.

They are baby steps compared to the switch that is happening outside, you can actually talk about it on Facebook and Twitter now.
Anyway, the tide is clearly changing ;-)

Timberrrrrrrr

patnor1011 wrote: »

Well, seeing how things evolve and how "facts" change at a whim depending on situation or "need" we should be quite happy we can discuss some topics.
Simple mentioning of certain topics few months ago would result in scores of insults, personal attacks and ultimately a thread ban.

I have followed this thread from the start and don't recall any "insults or personal attacks", care to show who made these against you or others? As for thread bans....People get themselves banned due to thier own posting.

geospatial

King Mob wrote: »

There's many papers that detail the zoonotic origin for the virus.

I am not aware of any scientific paper that details zootonic origin. There is speculation on how zootonic origin could have happened, there are comparisons to prior zootonic events like SARS-1 and MERS, etc. Nobody has yet answered the questions on how the unique features of SARS-2 emerged.

The origin possibilities are zootonic (directly from bats or an intermediary), signal passaging in nature (a mink farm for example), signal passaging in a lab,
and genetic engineering in a lab. There is no direct evidence for any of them, zootonic is the most likely but as yet has no direct evidence.

King Mob

geospatial wrote: »

I am not aware of any scientific paper that details zootonic origin. There is speculation on how zootonic origin could have happened, there are comparisons to prior zootonic events like SARS-1 and MERS, etc. Nobody has yet answered the questions on how the unique features of SARS-2 emerged.

The origin possibilities are zootonic (directly from bats or an intermediary), signal passaging in nature (a mink farm for example), signal passaging in a lab,
and genetic engineering in a lab. There is no direct evidence for any of them, zootonic is the most likely but as yet has no direct evidence.

The claim was that there was:

"no credible evidence of natural evolution".

Do you agree with this statement?

patnor1011

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have followed this thread from the start and don't recall any "insults or personal attacks", care to show who made these against you or others? As for thread bans....People get themselves banned due to thier own posting.

I never said it happened on this thread.
Plenty of examples on main covid threads. Simple mentioning of topics like virus lab leak accidental or deliberate, vitamins or if you said that covid vaccine will not give you immunity from covid infection would result in internet crucifixion and thread ban.
The only place where topics like this were permitted to talk about is conspiracy theory forum which is funny because it will actually lead to increase of "conspiracy theory turned out true" cases.

King Mob

patnor1011 wrote: »

...or deliberate, vitamins or if you said that covid vaccine will not give you immunity from covid infection would result in internet crucifixion and thread ban.
The only place where topics like this were permitted to talk about is conspiracy theory forum .

Well yes, because these things are conspiracy claims.

patnor1011

patnor1011 wrote: »

I never said it happened on this thread.
Plenty of examples on main covid threads. Simple mentioning of topics like virus lab leak accidental or deliberate, vitamins or if you said that covid vaccine will not give you immunity from covid infection would result in internet crucifixion and thread ban.
The only place where topics like this were permitted to talk about is conspiracy theory forum which is funny because it will actually lead to increase of "conspiracy theory turned out true" cases.

I've actually been considering starting a thread on this topic in the conspiracy theories forum..

It's been happening across the site for a couple of years anyway..Primarily around the same topics that Facebook and YouTube etc have been accused of censoring..

Are we being subjected to, not downright censorship, but a strategic manipulation of the conversation, where anyone holding a viewpoint outside of what is deemed appropriate (the general liberal/MSM consensus) is harangued until they either give up or react and get banned?..

geospatial

King Mob wrote: »

The claim was that there was:
"no credible evidence of natural evolution".
Do you agree with this statement?

I wouldn't agree with that statement, the way I would put it is there is no direct evidence for natural origin and no direct evidence for any of the other possible origins I gave you. There is circumstantial evidence for all possibilities, which lead to the various hypotheses.

So for example the fact that SARS-2 is a betacoronavirus with similarities to SARS-1 and MERS is circumstantial evidence of zootonic origin. The fact that SARS-2 closest relative (BTCoV/4991 or RaTG13) was collected in a cave in Yunnan in 2013 by WIV researchers and brought back to their lab is circumstantial evidence of a lab origin.

In terms of the science, the two biggest areas of contention are how well adapted SARS-2 is to humans, and the furin cleavage site. There are dozens of papers on both topics with no compelling answers as yet.

Dohnjoe

patnor1011 wrote: »

Ok, no credible evidence for lab escape and so far no credible evidence of natural evolution or jumping species. All we have is maybe, probably and highly likely.
So, isn't it a little premature to call people conspiracy theorists if they go for possible lab leak theory?

I suggest reading my post again (and looking at the title of the thread)

Dohnjoe

geospatial wrote: »

It was an investigation completely controlled by the CCP, they set the rules, they provided the data that they choose to provide, they determined what access the investigators would have or not have.

Two quotes from the attached CNN article: "Dominic Dwyer a member of the WHO team told Reuters last week that the team had requested raw patient data on the 174 early cases and been refused, and were instead provided a summary". Why would the CCP refuse to provide this data? Because maybe it shows the early cases were centered around the WIV?

On the lab leak hypothesis: Here's our ubiquitous friend Peter Daszak again "We found no tangible evidence or real leads on that, despite asking really hard question of the WIV". Really hard questions? Like can we see your data that was taken down from your servers in Nov 2019, and see your lab notebooks, and see your lab safety records". Nope, didn't ask for any of that. Just asked did anyone at the WIV test positive for Covid, answer was no, case closed.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/asia/who-report-criticism-intl-hnk/index.html

And as mentioned I don't 100% trust the above investigation for all the obvious reasons

Likewise the US investigation is going to have conflicts of interest (and limited access) so the notion of them discovering some sort of definitive smoking gun is probably quite low

Barring some dramatic discovery, I suspect it will be a long time before we know for sure, if we ever know. I don't see some multinational independent fully transparent investigation taking place in China will full access given by China, do you?

Trigger

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've actually been considering starting a thread on this topic in the conspiracy theories forum..

It's been happening across the site for a couple of years anyway..Primarily around the same topics that Facebook and YouTube etc have been accused of censoring..

Are we being subjected to, not downright censorship, but a strategic manipulation of the conversation, where anyone holding a viewpoint outside of what is deemed appropriate (the general liberal/MSM consensus) is harangued until they either give up or react and get banned?..

Mod: this is not the thread to discuss such topics, I'd suggest you start a helpdesk thread if you feel strongly about this on Boards- please stay on topic

Dohnjoe

geospatial wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that statement, the way I would put it is there is no direct evidence for natural origin and no direct evidence for any of the other possible origins I gave you. There is circumstantial evidence for all possibilities, which lead to the various hypotheses.

Most of the experts looking at the genome see no evidence it's been tampered with. That's the overwhelming scientific view. Are you saying it's just as likely this virus is "man-made"?

There's a hypothesis that the world is flat, it doesn't mean it has any veracity

King Mob

geospatial wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that statement,

So why didn't you comment on it?

It's been repeatedly claimed on this thread over and over that there's nothing supporting the zoonotic origin.
It's been claimed that there's no papers supporting the idea.
And when those papers are produced they have been claimed to be false, fraudulent and not peer reviewed.

When patnor and other conspiracy theorists are claiming that, they aren't applying the nuance you seem to want to assume.

You also say that all possibilities are on the table, yet earlier you said that your argeed that some conspiracy theories could be discounted, like the idea that the virus was a bioweapon.

What other possibilities are you referring to beyond the zoonotic origin and a gain of function origin?
What studies support these options or the claims that the virus was altered?

geospatial

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likewise the US investigation is going to have conflicts of interest (and limited access) so the notion of them discovering some sort of definitive smoking gun is probably quite low

Barring some dramatic discovery, I suspect it will be a long time before we know for sure, if we ever know. I don't see some multinational independent fully transparent investigation taking place in China will full access given by China, do you?

So the good news is the new US investigation involves scientists who are open to the idea of a lab leak, not just those who dismissed the possibility from early Feb 2020. If we are going to demand openness and transparency from China, we should exhibit it ourselves.

But I agree, without access to relevant data, it's very hard to make progress. I think what it will take is some very firm negotiation where Xi is told that China will be treated like a pariah state unless they provide access. It's in China's interest to be open and transparent, regardless of their public outrage they are not stupid.

The best outcome is obviously one that includes China in a global effort to detect pathogens early, regardless of their origin, and have a coordinated global response.

patnor1011

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Most of the experts looking at the genome see no evidence it's been tampered with.

Most of the experts simply means that some of them do see it the other way. If there would be nothing of concern there you could say "all of them".

Dohnjoe wrote: »

That's the overwhelming scientific view. Are you saying it's just as likely this virus is "man-made"?

There's a hypothesis that the world is flat, it doesn't mean it has any veracity

Nothing overwhelming here so far. For what we know so far, study or search only started and we know so little about this topic exactly because we need more time to find the answers.

Dohnjoe

geospatial wrote: »

So the good news is the new US investigation involves scientists who are open to the idea of a lab leak, not just those who dismissed the possibility from early Feb 2020.

I am interested in investigations which want to get to the truth rather than being "more open" to a particular outcome

I am getting more and more of a feeling that some "impartial" posters here are really gunning for that one particular outcome

But I agree, without access to relevant data, it's very hard to make progress. I think what it will take is some very firm negotiation where Xi is told that China will be treated like a pariah state unless they provide access. It's in China's interest to be open and transparent, regardless of their public outrage they are not stupid.

The best outcome is obviously one that includes China in a global effort to detect pathogens early, regardless of their origin, and have a coordinated global response.

Indeed, but extremely unlikely, China holds the cards on this one.

Dohnjoe

patnor1011 wrote: »

Most of the experts simply means that some of them do see it the other way. If there would be nothing of concern there you could say "all of them".

No. They don't "see it" one way or another, it's not random lay-people "aving an opinion". They use method to demonstrate it. Which is why there is a significant amount of evidence (inc. published) from scientists demonstrating that the virus evolved naturally. There is little evidence that it was manipulated or engineered.

If there would be nothing of concern there you could say "all of them".

"All of them" doesn't really exist in science, there are always outliers, e.g. there are scientists (plural) who maintain that the Earth is only several thousand years old, however the evidence demonstrating that the Earth is billions of years old is stronger, ergo that's the scientific consensus.

astrofool

geospatial wrote: »

So the good news is the new US investigation involves scientists who are open to the idea of a lab leak, not just those who dismissed the possibility from early Feb 2020. If we are going to demand openness and transparency from China, we should exhibit it ourselves.

But I agree, without access to relevant data, it's very hard to make progress. I think what it will take is some very firm negotiation where Xi is told that China will be treated like a pariah state unless they provide access. It's in China's interest to be open and transparent, regardless of their public outrage they are not stupid.

The best outcome is obviously one that includes China in a global effort to detect pathogens early, regardless of their origin, and have a coordinated global response.

I'm pretty sure the WHO investigation only discounted a lab leak after the investigation, not beforehand. If the US investigation sees the same evidence it's highly likely they will reach the same conclusion and discount the lab leak theory as well.

cnocbui

patnor1011 wrote: »

Most of the experts simply means that some of them do see it the other way. If there would be nothing of concern there you could say "all of them".

Nothing overwhelming here so far. For what we know so far, study or search only started and we know so little about this topic exactly because we need more time to find the answers.

That is not true. The Norwegian virologist Dr Birger Sorensen and professor Angus Dalgleish in the UK published a paper a year ago stating Covid-19 was likely man made in a lab. They were shut down pretty hard at the time. Now they look like being vindicated.

Jun 7, 2020,03:42pm EDT|3,046,747 views
Controversial Coronavirus Lab Origin Claims Dismissed By Experts

New claims that the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 was engineered have been dismissed by scientific and intelligence experts.

The authors of a British-Norwegian vaccine study—accepted by the Quarterly Review of Biophysics—claim that the coronavirus's spike protein contains sequences that appear to be artificially inserted.

In their paper, the Norwegian scientist Birger Sørensen and British oncologist Angus Dalgleish claim to have identified "inserted sections placed on the SARS-CoV-2 spike surface" that explains how the virus interacts with cells in the human body. Virologists, however, note that similar sections appear naturally in other viruses.
Accidental release claims challenged

Sir Richard Dearlove, who was head of MI6 from 1999 to 2004, told the Daily Telegraph that Sørensen and Dalgleish’s research shows that the pandemic may have started at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. He added that he thought it unlikely to have been released deliberately, but that China had clearly tried to cover up the release.

The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 virus has no “credible natural ancestor" and was created by Chinese scientists who were working on a “Gain of Function" project in a Wuhan lab, the Daily Mail reported on Sunday, citing a new research paper by British professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr Birger Sorensen.

The new research claims that scientists took a natural coronavirus “backbone" found in Chinese cave bats and spliced onto it a new “spike", turning it into the deadly and highly transmissible COVID-19.

The paper also quotes that researchers found “unique fingerprints" in COVID-19 samples that they say could only have arisen from manipulation in a laboratory.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/

Dohnjoe

cnocbui wrote: »

That is not true. The Norwegian virologist Dr Birger Sorensen and professor Angus Dalgleish in the UK published a paper a year ago stating Covid-19 was likely man made in a lab. They were shut down pretty hard at the time. Now they look like being vindicated.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/

This has come up in this thread already. The final paper they produced didn't acknowledge any man-made link.

https://fullfact.org/health/richard-dearlove-coronavirus-claims/