Covid-19 likely to be man made

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370068#Comment_120370068

Interesting if you're worried about the welfare of raccoon dogs I guess.

The latest genetic data does not prove raccoon dogs or other mammals were infected with Covid and spread it at the market. If the animals were infected, they may have contracted the virus from infected humans. But the findings do point to the possibility that the cause was an infected animal and, ultimately, the illegal wildlife trade.

But it doesn't tell us anything new about the origins of Covid.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370361#Comment_120370361

It's new research which lends more weight to the wet market theory.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370424#Comment_120370424

How does it lend more weight to the theory?

geospatial

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370068#Comment_120370068

Careful now, apparently "interesting" is code for "some stuff I found on Twitter and didn't bother to look into"

No data as yet, not even a preprint, so would advise holding off until that's available.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370424#Comment_120370424

Does it rule out the possibility that someone working at the WIV, already infected with Covid, infected an animal at the market while our shopping?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370527#Comment_120370527

Came across it in the Guardian, not in any twitter feed.

Just looked it up on Twitter a moment ago and now all these comments are making sense.

Goldengirl

Not on Twitter. But know what you mean.

My post above not just to stir but really do believe there is more going on than we have been told both about the origins and the political motivation of the US and Chinese.

Think this is one that will be simmering for a while and I would be keeping an open mind as this could go either way..

Its not good that something so important is being used as a political weapon.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370548#Comment_120370548

To understand

Source -> human -> lab leak -> live racoon dog -> humans

Is that what you are suggesting?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369960#Comment_120369960

So again you're either unaware of the false and ridiculous claims made by conspiracy theorists or you're pretending to be unaware.

RFK's claims are not "scientific dissent".

Vaccines do not cause autism. Bill Gates are Anthony Fauci are not part of a secret global coup against democracy. 5G is not dangerous.

If these claims count as scientific dissent to you...

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370752#Comment_120370752

I am trying to understand why a raccoon dog could not have been infected by a human similar to mink farm infections in the early part of the pandemic.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370853#Comment_120370853

Not all of us spend every day on the conspiracy forum so apologies if not au fait with each and every conspiracy theory and its proponents.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370876#Comment_120370876

Admitting that it's possible raccoon dogs which might have been infected with covid by being present in a wet market in which covid was circulating whilst simultaneously claiming evidence of possibly infected raccoon dogs from this market is somehow new research which lends more weight to the wet market origins theory, is a pretty difficult circle to square.

Sure you can wave a Guardian article about to attempt it, but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370977#Comment_120370977

It doesn't take much to find out what his claims are and how ridiculous they are.

Nor is he obscure or unknown. He is perhaps one of the most prominent and famous anti-vaxxer.

If you are indeed simply unaware of him, then it exposes that you claims about what was and wasn't unfairly labeled as conspiracy theories weren't coming from a very informed position.

But as you said his opinions are scientific dissent. So guess we have to take his claims about 5g and vaccines as seriously as claims about the virus leaking from a lab.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371009#Comment_120371009

Is this your own conspiracy theory now? That I am conspiring to pretend I am not familiar with Robert Kennedy and it therefore exposes me as not being informed about conspiracy theories.

You then misquote me entirely saying “but as you said his opinions are scientific dissent”, even after I specifically said in the first line

“I’m not familiar with Robert Kennedy.” and never once said that his opinions (which I have already said I am not aware of) are scientific dissent.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371153#Comment_120371153

In my experience on this thread, people have been claiming not to be aware of very visible, very apparent things about conspiracy theories being spread about the virus and vaccines. If it's from pure innocence, then it's a very profound level of innocence that stretches credibility a bit.

But I will take you at your word that you don't know who RFK Jr is and you weren't previously aware of his claims.

And now you are aware that his claims are all false and should be dismissed as conspiracy theories.

Apologies, I assumed that he was what you were referring to when you talked about scientific dissent.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370876#Comment_120370876

Sure, but that's the route according to your suggestion

If so, what would be the original source?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372169#Comment_120372169

Isn’t that the 64 million dollar question.

mcsean2163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368077#Comment_120368077

https://youtu.be/QxUy31IW90s

Interesting response to preprint.

Fighting Tao

And the pendulum swings back. 

Have we found the 'animal origin' of Covid?

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65067264

Genetic data released by China three years after it was gathered has provided 'the best evidence' of how the pandemic started, scientists say.

Looks like the cute looking raccoon dog could be the culprit.

silliussoddius

Next talking point; a pandemic started because someone ate a raccoon dog!

Fighting Tao

Tumbleweed blowing through here on foot of the raccoon dog announcement. The grifters must not have had an answer to provide to their followers.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424410#Comment_120424410

It takes time to develop a belief and then for people to memorize it.

SuperBowserWorld

Not sure which is worse. A man made virus or a "fish" market with wild animals in brutal conditions in cages and industrial meat production practices around the world which result in pandemics.

In other news that bird flu that killed a load of seabirds here last year has spread to mammals.

Also, Mario turns into a Racoon Dog when he has some magic leaf 🤣

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424460#Comment_120424460

Not sure anyone is claiming it's man made. Most say it's a natural virus that has been modified ie gain of function research. The virus may have then "escaped" or a worker became infected .

Labs in Wuhan researching virus'. Global outbreak of a virus that experts say originated in Wuhan. Come on

Like everything the openly public knowledge is only the tip of the iceberg.

The absolute chaos , misery,death, financial damage etc the pandemic caused and yet the investigation into its origins seems to be minimum effort or interest.

Tells it's own story.

Ask Fauchi. He knows the craic

jackboy

Is anyone other than journalists taking this raccoon dog stuff from China seriously. What is being reported can be ripped apart by a junior cert level student.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426528#Comment_120426528

Conspiracy theorists throughout this thread have been suggesting that it was man made as a bio-weapon or as part of a plot to create a pandemic. The original post talks about Trump claiming the virus was "manufactured."

The current narrative that the conspiracy theory is and always was that virus was manipulated slightly has only arisen recently.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426565#Comment_120426565

And what is your opinion on what happened and the investigation into its orign

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426580#Comment_120426580

I'm just pointing out that claim you made that "no one is saying it's man made" is false.

Plenty of people on this thread and elsewhere have claimed it was man made.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426528#Comment_120426528

'Most' do not say that. Your statement is without foundation.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426579#Comment_120426579

I’m sure you have references for your claims. Please provide.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426676#Comment_120426676

But what's your opinion on the origins and the investigation. Please share with us . Just for the craic

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427093#Comment_120427093

Maybe you are right.

Let's hear your opinions. In the name of balance, freedom of expression etc.

I'm interested

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427948#Comment_120427948

There's no 'maybe'. I'm not aware of anything that supports your claim that 'most' scientists believe it stems from gain of function research. It is one possibility. Another possibility is accidental lab leak of a zoonotic virus being studied in the lab.

My opinions are already on the thread... to summarise - at present the most likely origin imo is from an animal species to a human via wet market.

Given China's obstruction of any investigation, whether that is to conceal a lab leak or just to conceal the origins of the virus in China, make it difficult for outside authorities to come to a definite conclusion.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427942#Comment_120427942

But my point was to correct you false claim. One that seems to keep cropping up lately as people keep trying to rewrite history and pretend conspiracy theorists were right all along.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427980#Comment_120427980

Ok well I think you are entitled to your opinion but it's most likely wrong

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427991#Comment_120427991

It's not an opinion. You are making a statement of fact about what 'most' scientists currently believe. Regardless of the eventual outcome in discovering the origins of the virus, your present statement is false.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427998#Comment_120427998

As is your opinion.

Also my statement was people not scientists.

Did I not write many rather than most?

Drumpot

Can somebody discuss the gain of function theory? I’ve heard elements of but before but not not enough to have an informed discussion on it.

I can’t remember the podcast I was listening to but it had two scientists discussing the lab leak theory. They said they took the stance that it was still unclear if it was lab leak or from an animal but the meat of their discussion certainly suggested the accidental lab leak was extremely more likely.

There was an awful lot of coincidences they brought up and if you apply occams razor it’s hard to not conclude it most likely was a lab leak.

The covid virus apparantly existed over a thousand miles or kms from Wuhan. This was actually where the scientists got the covid strain to do gain of function testing. Apparantly a few years ago a Wuhan scientist said something on the lines of the possibility of a covid outbreak starting in Wuhan was nil.

They discussed how this could happen (lab leak) and supposedly the security settings for gain of function was actually on the lower levels which make a lab leak very possible.

Then they discussed why the Americans or wider scientific community would not come out and make sure we get the actual answer. Apparantly there is American money going into Wuhan , so their hands aren’t exactly clean. But what motive would scientists have for confirming it was a lab leak? In short the whole world would turn against these scientific tests etc.

Then they discussed how there’s no talk of the elephant in the room about this gain of function expirements at Wuhan. They said it’s like a person in Wuhan says years ago they are going to experiment with growing horses with horns on their heads. Several years later there’s reports of unicorns all over Wuhan and everybody wants to talk about everything but the fact some lad was trying to actually make a unicorn in the area.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427988#Comment_120427988

COVID could have escaped from a lab in Wuhan.

In the beginning it was according to legacy media a "conspiracy theory" . Now it is not only credible it is quite likely.

Do you have a different opinion?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428007#Comment_120428007

No, in post 2025 today you said "most". You are entitled to your own opinions, but when you make statements of fact without foundation that is a different matter. The onus is on you to support such statements.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428027#Comment_120428027

But no, that's simply not what was being claimed.

The suggestion that the virus may have escaped from a lab was not labeled as a conspiracy theory by "legacy media." (I assume by this you mean real media organisations as opposed to grifters on youtube/bitchute etc.)

What was labeled as conspiracy theories were the conspiracy theories being suggested at the time by folks like Trump and other "non-legacy media types" such as the notion that the virus was manufactured as a bioweapon.

Again, it's looking like we've someone pretending these claims simply didn't exist.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428061#Comment_120428061

That's just patiently untrue. The lab leak theory was indeed labeled as a conspiracy from the very start and this started with The Lancet, Nature, and Science journals. Closely followed by the Guardian and other reputable organisations. The BMJ did a good piece covering all this last year.

There were, of course, crackpots claiming it was weaponized but they were fringle cranks that were easily ignored.

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1656

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428061#Comment_120428061

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-origin-evidence-of-lab-leak-that-may-have-caused-coronavirus-would-have-been-destroyed-by-china-ex-mi6-chief-says-12323900

Read very first paragraph.

Also still waiting for your own opinions on the origins and investigation. All you are doing is telling everyone else they are wrong. It's a bit odd

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428146#Comment_120428146

Yea, that article just repeats the same false claim we've seen in this thread:

Shortly after the pandemic began, Daszak effectively silenced debate over the possibility of a lab leak with a February 2020 statement in the Lancet.2 “We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that covid-19 does not have a natural origin,” said the letter, which listed Daszak as one of 27 coauthors. Daszak did not respond to repeated requests for comment from The BMJ.

This quote they cite does not refer to a lab leak. Nor does an open letter "silence debate."

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428163#Comment_120428163

Ok. Not sure what that first paragraph has to do with any point being made...

This article does not cite any examples of the idea of a lab leak being "dismissed as a conspiracy theory."

And again, no acknowledgement of the actual conspiracy theories that were being spread.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428217#Comment_120428217

Even in the link description. " Initially widely dismissed as conspiracy theories"

You are trolling and won't give your own opinions.

Goodbye

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428019#Comment_120428019

Not particularly GOF, but bat coronavirus research was conducted at Bio-Safety Level 2 (Wuhan is a lab capable of BSL-4 research) with the reason being that bat coronavirus can't jump to humans directly and would need an intermediate species which wouldn't be present (or shouldn't be present) in a lab environment.

GOF research is an interesting area, it's looking at different virus, taking genome of other virus and applying it to the virus under study to see what effect it has (more/less transmissible or virulent) as well as identifying weakpoints such that vaccines could be developed. One of the arguments against GOF for SARS-COV2 is that SARS-COV2 has relatively unique properties that weren't found in already existing virus being researched (so it could have been that another very novel virus was being studied and provided that property and wasn't documented somewhere already and then that particular virus somehow jumped to humans without an intermediate or via an intermediate in a lab environment, again, without anyone documenting it, in an international lab with researchers of multiple nationalities). It's an unlikely probability of an unlikely probability hence Occam's razor would point to an intermediate most likely via a wet market as it would need a series of protocol breaches and coincidences to occur from a lab environment. It could also be that a researcher who was interacting with multiple species more often took it to the lab and it started from there, but again, low probability.

Unless it was all on purpose and thus a conspiracy.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428931#Comment_120428931

Thanks , . The frustration I have when listening to different views is that it’s hard to find any objective discussions where there can be intelligent rebuttals.

I found the book of the people discussing the lab leak theory. Matt Ridley and Alina chan - they wrote a book called “viral”. Are they hacks? They were the ones saying GOF was happening at level 2 (or at least that’s what I thought I heard)

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429021#Comment_120429021

Sorry, I meant bat coronavirus are (or were, not sure if the guidelines are updated now) studied at BSL-2 due to their inability to jump to humans, I believe that also covered performing GOF research on them (I'm sure it can be looked up somewhere if you can get beyond the overload of articles about SARS-COV2 and labs). I don't believe we're at the level (at least via GOF, maybe other methods could) of adapting a bat virus into one that can infect humans (and if we were, that would be part of a conspiracy).

Of course, virus also do their own thing faster than us humans can modify them (Omicron being "ready" and released to end the pandemic at a certain time was another conspiracy that was being talked about, even though Omicron was very close to the original strain in seriousness but with greater infectivity rates).

mcsean2163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428931#Comment_120428931

On gof, it was initially funded by us.

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/09/covid-origins-gain-of-function-research/

nothing to say that work could not have been continued.

On serial passaging, it was suggested that humanised mice in a laboratory could have been an intermediate species.

Finally, towards the end of 2019, Wuhan removed access to their virology database. In the who joint study Peter (conflict of interest) Daszak decided that the team did not need to review the database.

The last piece is particularly strange, who knows what actually happened.